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Thread: Open carry on Public Transportation?

  1. #1
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    Can you open carry on the public bus and metro (not going to DC of course)? And has anyone ever taken a cab while OCing?

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    Why not?

    Have you found any law or other reference making OC banned on buses, Metro trains, or cabs?

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    Very true! Thanks for the info, as you can tell I'm new to VA and it surprises me how much of this right we have, coming form california of course.

    THanks Mike

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Mike,
    Has the issue concerning Pentagon and Arlington Cemetery Metro stops been clarified yet? Or am I just behind on current policy?

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    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Mike,
    Has the issue concerning Pentagon and Arlington Cemetery Metro stops been clarified yet? Or am I just behind on current policy?
    No change - current policy of military authorites is that any gun carry is unlawful if you get out of the Metro station, even on a peaceable journey.

    Current policy of the Metro Board is they don't care about their riders and will not even ask military authorities to consider a peaceable journey rule.

    The good news though is that I don't think any person waives their Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search while walking from the Metro to, say, other public transportation or Macy's Dept Store at these locations.

    Under the Fourth Amendment, before federal law enforcement may even briefly detain a person, they must have a reasonable articulable suspicionthat criminal activity is afoot. Terry v. Ohio. And before a person so detained can then be lightly patted down for weapons, the officer must have reason to believe that the eprson is armed. Id.

    Sometimes concealed is the best option on the Metro going thru these locations, especially in an emergency which requires Metro riders to disembark at go above ground at those locations.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    While I would not attempt a journey such as this under todays restrictions, I once drove to the Vienna metro station, boarded the blue line and via a few transfers went to Central Station where I boarded a train to Missouri via Chicago. There was a two hour wait in the station in DC and about 4 hours for connections in Chicago. I returned in a rental truck.

    During the outbound trip I had three pistols disassembled in my luggage, in locked cases, and the ammo was separated per Amtrak regulations of the day.

    Today only the Metro portion of that trip would be possible and only up to the Virginia border. We need to take back the right to free travel while armed.

    Within the span of my lifetime you could travel by plane with a pistol in your pocket. Now you can;t even take a quart of water past the security gate. Amazing.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Why not?

    Have you found any law or other reference making OC banned on buses, Metro trains, or cabs?
    I OC on VA parts of Metro often. I have never disembarked at Pentagon or Arlington. I keep the following with me, well I used to, now I don't much anymore.


    METRO/WMATA[/b]

    I wanted to advise you that the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) does not have a policy on carrying of weapons on Authority property. The Metro Transit Police Department (MTPD) enforces the laws of each of the jurisdictions. However, it is in your best
    interests for your own safety not to "openly" display or carry a weapon. If you have a valid Virginia State issued permit and remain on the train in the Commonwealth of Virginia, then you are complying with the law.
    You can also refer to Article 7 of the state code under 18.2-308 for a better understanding. If you should have any further questions, you may contact me directly.

    Lieutenant Ron Pavlik
    Research and Planning Division
    Fax (202) 962-2491
    Office (202) 962-2176
    E-Mail rapavlik@wmata.com


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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    ...Today only the Metro portion of that trip would be possible and only up to the Virginia border. We need to take back the right to free travel while armed.
    Since you had everything in locked cases, it seems that the Federal law regulating travel would apply (I'm too lazy to track down the code section, but I think everyone here is going to be familiar).

    ie, you're taking these guns, securely locked, from a place (Vienna, or more specifically, your home) to a place (Missouri) where you were permitted to have them, non-stop, with brief (and believe me, 2 hour and 4 hour layovers on Amtrak are BRIEF) layovers in places (DC and Chicago) where you weren't.

    I haven't done so, but I have friends who've checked bags with firearms on Amtrak at Union Station (it's Union Station in DC, not Central) and declared them (he did call ahead before doing this) without a problem.

    Where the issues comes in travelling via ground over long distances is when you're doing so by car - what happens if you take your overnight hotel stop in central NJ? Are you covered? What if that overnight stop in Jersey is at a friend's house? Granted, the PANYNJ especially get a little overzealous, and innocent people end up racking up legal fees. But the innocents ultimately prevail.

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    On the topic at hand, I'll point out that quite regularly (multiple times a week) I carry (concealed) on the Metro in VA, going through both the Pentagon and Arlington Cemetary. Have never been confronted about it by anyone.

    A suggestion is to print out this letter (http://www.virginia1774.org/METROLetter.jpg). While the above email is helpful, a letter from WMATA General Counsel probably carries more weight than someone from the "Research and Planning Division". Especially when you think about the people you'll be showing it to.

    On that point, remember - Metro has it's own police department. That means that the VA stations are not policed by Arlington or Fairfax County, or city of Alexandria (who are presumably familiar with VA's recognition of our 2nd Ammendment rights). They're policed by people who are trained by a DC headquartered agency, and generally patrol the entire system, without really recognizing jurisdictional boundaries.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    jbobmurph wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Since you had everything in locked cases, it seems that the Federal law regulating travel would apply (I'm too lazy to track down the code section, but I think everyone here is going to be familiar).

    ie, you're taking these guns, securely locked, from a place (Vienna, or more specifically, your home) to a place (Missouri) where you were permitted to have them, non-stop, with brief (and believe me, 2 hour and 4 hour layovers on Amtrak are BRIEF) layovers in places (DC and Chicago) where you weren't.
    SNIP ...
    I agree you would think this would be the case. The Chief of The DC police department takes the position the the beltway provides a reasonable way around DC, and that people traveling with guns should use that route. DC police insist they will arrest anyone the find with an unregistered handgun period.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    I haven't seen any quotes from the chief herselfin that regard; one of the deputy chiefs was recently quoted along those lines in the rash of articles post-Parker (can't find the quote).

    And certainly, I'dbe quite weary of driving surface streets in DC with a locked,secured weapon, even if provably headedtoward VA or MD from VA or MD (hell, I'm weary of going into DC anyway, and I work there).

    But if you're on a freeway that passes through the District (and of course remember that, technically speaking, the beltway - and it's the part of the beltway that you take if you follow the signs to Baltimore heading north from Virginia - passes through a small corner of DC. Check a map if you don't believe me - by the Woodrow Wilson Bridge), or you're going ticket-in-hand to Union Station to take Amtrak out of town, you may be detained, but whatever MPD thinks, you'll get off.

    Remember, MPD and the DC Council are not, in fact, the judge and jury. Moreover, DC crime is ultimately prosecuted by the Department of Justice (at least in theory). And it's doubtful that DoJ (at least for the next two years) is going to allow any city or state, much less the District, to run roughshod over ANY federal law.



    Hawkflyer wrote: [/b]


    jbobmurph wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Since you had everything in locked cases, it seems that the Federal law regulating travel would apply (I'm too lazy to track down the code section, but I think everyone here is going to be familiar).

    ie, you're taking these guns, securely locked, from a place (Vienna, or more specifically, your home) to a place (Missouri) where you were permitted to have them, non-stop, with brief (and believe me, 2 hour and 4 hour layovers on Amtrak are BRIEF) layovers in places (DC and Chicago) where you weren't.
    SNIP ...
    I agree you would think this would be the case. The Chief of The DC police department takes the position the the beltway provides a reasonable way around DC, and that people traveling with guns should use that route. DC police insist they will arrest anyone the find with an unregistered handgun period.

    Regards

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    jbobmurph wrote:
    ...
    I haven't done so, but I have friends who've checked bags with firearms on Amtrak at Union Station (it's Union Station in DC, not Central) and declared them (he did call ahead before doing this) without a problem.
    ...
    I wonder how recently they did that, as Amtrak's currently published regulations sure don't make it sound like that is possible.


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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Not sure I will get a response, but my search didn't yield an answer. I need to go pick up a friend at the Amtrak Station. Is there anything against open carry in the station? I know that an Airport Terminal is off-limits, but I am not sure if an Amtrak is public, private or federal.

    Appreciate any pointers to law or otherwise.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65
    Not sure I will get a response, but my search didn't yield an answer. I need to go pick up a friend at the Amtrak Station. Is there anything against open carry in the station? I know that an Airport Terminal is off-limits, but I am not sure if an Amtrak is public, private or federal.

    Appreciate any pointers to law or otherwise.
    Here's something I found on Amtrak's website that doesn't look good.

    http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conten...=1241337896164

    Governing Law
    All travel on, and transactions with, Amtrak is governed by the laws of the District of Columbia, United States of America, without regards to its principles of conflicts of law. You agree to submit to the exclusive jurisdiction of any Federal court located in the District of Columbia, United States of America, and waive any jurisdictional, venue or inconvenient forum objections to such courts.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    Here's something I found on Amtrak's website that doesn't look good.

    http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/Conten...=1241337896164
    That would cover travel, but not the station/depot itself.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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