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Thread: Delaware AG says fatal police shooting of Virginia man justified

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    Del. AG says fatal police shooting of Va. man justified

    DOVER, Del. Delaware's attorney general's office says police were justified in the fatal shooting of a former Marine they were trying to arrest.

    Twenty-five-year-old Derek Hale of Manassas, Virginia, was shot three times by Wilmington police Lieutenant William Browne last November six. He had been Tasered repeatedly by officers trying to arrest him while investigating a motorcycle gang.

    Despite the stun gun shots, the Justice Department says Hale repeatedly ignored commands to take his hands out of his pockets.

    The investigation found that Hale was wearing several layers of clothing, and the three Taser darts may not have pierced his skin.

    A lawyer for Hale's family in a wrongful death suit says voters should recall Attorney General Beau Biden "for dereliction of duty."
    Source: http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.as...;nav=menu368_2

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    Wow... I cannot believe they shot him for hands in his pockets! Ido not know all the details but this does disturb me. :?

    I am guessing that they had some prior history or information that he was armed or known to carry. The report did not mention if anything was found in his pockets so I am guessing they were empty.

    I would have used a bean bag on him before shooting him with a pistol. Too bad the taser did not work. Sincedeadly force was authorized.. they could have used batons to break both arms or sent a dog to attack him.

    But... he did fail to comply and he decided to take it beyond what was necessary. Better to be judged then buried.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Wow... I cannot believe they shot him for hands in his pockets! Ido not know all the details but this does disturb me. :?

    I am guessing that they had some prior history or information that he was armed or known to carry. The report did not mention if anything was found in his pockets so I am guessing they were empty.

    I would have used a bean bag on him before shooting him with a pistol. Too bad the taser did not work. Sincedeadly force was authorized.. they could have used batons to break both arms or sent a dog to attack him.

    But... he did fail to comply and he decided to take it beyond what was necessary. Better to be judged then buried.
    Read this article. Opinionated but well researched and footnoted.

    LoveMyCountry

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    Rather interesting that uninvolved witnesses do not agree with the description of the events as put forth by the police.

    A lot of departments these days are too quick to call SWAT to the scenes of these kinds of events. IMHO these units are dangerous because they are trained to remove active threats, not negotiate. In most cases, they see everyone as active threats to be neutralized. They are NOT typically trained or equipped with non-lethal equipment to do the neutralizing because that is not their purpose.

    That said, the Pagans have been around for a long time. In this area, they have a reputation. Unless the organization has changed significantly, I am very surprised that a person with this young mans background was a member.

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    Fairfax County likes to shoot completely unresisting suspects.....

    That said, cops pointing guns at you means get the hell on the floor and hands away from your body. Regardless if Cop right or wrong, better to let 12 judge instead of 1 almighty.

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    rabbit994 wrote:
    Fairfax County likes to shoot completely unresisting suspects.....

    That said, cops pointing guns at you means get the hell on the floor and hands away from your body. Regardless if Cop right or wrong, better to let 12 judge instead of 1 almighty.
    Please do not blanket an entire department for the mistake of one. Thanks!

    No department as a whole likes to kill people. I think your talking about that eye doctor that was shot by accident.

    Accidents happen.... The SWAT officer did not shoot him on purpose as the objective was to arrest him.

    Hawk is right that the SWAT guys train to stop threats more often then take them down. They are trained to enter a sitaution that is most often dangerous and they have to shoot.

    Fairfax county does have a good track record with SWAT taking people alive. The news just shows you the bad stuff all day and reports the good stuff on page 36 if at all.


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    rabbit994 wrote:
    Fairfax County likes to shoot completely unresisting suspects.....

    That said, cops pointing guns at you means get the hell on the floor and hands away from your body. Regardless if Cop right or wrong, better to let 12 judge instead of 1 almighty.
    If you believe the witnesses, he never had a chance to get on the ground or get his hands away from his body. I wasn't there, so I can never really know what happened. The Pagans do have a serious reputationas "1 percenters" (the one percent of the population that are true psychopaths), even among other motorcycle clubs. This incident still reminds me too much of what I have heard of SIS of the LAPD. I personally believe that he had been established as a "threat to officer safety" in advance because of his combat veteran status. Once again, I can't know what was going through the minds of anyone present at the time. But still, in the minds of most, Pagan MC+ Marine combat vet= extremely dangerous individual. I don't think he ever had a snowball's chance to surrrender.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    rabbit994 wrote:
    Fairfax County likes to shoot completely unresisting suspects.....

    That said, cops pointing guns at you means get the hell on the floor and hands away from your body. Regardless if Cop right or wrong, better to let 12 judge instead of 1 almighty.
    If you believe the witnesses, he never had a chance to get on the ground or get his hands away from his body. I wasn't there, so I can never really know what happened. The Pagans do have a serious reputationas "1 percenters" (the one percent of the population that are true psychopaths), even among other motorcycle clubs. This incident still reminds me too much of what I have heard of SIS of the LAPD. I personally believe that he had been established as a "threat to officer safety" in advance because of his combat veteran status. Once again, I can't know what was going through the minds of anyone present at the time. But still, in the minds of most, Pagan MC+ Marine combat vet= extremely dangerous individual. I don't think he ever had a snowball's chance to surrrender.
    Well, if that is the mindset of the authorities, we will be losing more troops at homethan we have overseas. Weren't the original Hell's Angels made up of disgruntled WWII vets who no longer fit into the molds they had come from? We willbe having a lot of people returning to the general population who can't or don't want to put their sheep suits backon. Are they all "hostiles" that will need to be eliminated?



    LoveMyCountry

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    rabbit994 wrote:
    Fairfax County likes to shoot completely unresisting suspects.....

    That said, cops pointing guns at you means get the hell on the floor and hands away from your body. Regardless if Cop right or wrong, better to let 12 judge instead of 1 almighty.
    Please do not blanket an entire department for the mistake of one. Thanks!

    No department as a whole likes to kill people. I think your talking about that eye doctor that was shot by accident.

    Accidents happen.... The SWAT officer did not shoot him on purpose as the objective was to arrest him.

    Hawk is right that the SWAT guys train to stop threats more often then take them down. They are trained to enter a sitaution that is most often dangerous and they have to shoot.

    Fairfax county does have a good track record with SWAT taking people alive. The news just shows you the bad stuff all day and reports the good stuff on page 36 if at all.
    I'm not, but situation was one of those why was SWAT out there at all? It was a non violent offender with zero evidence he was in possession of weapons. 3 squad cars with 6 uniformed officers could have taken him without need to dress up in black and point weapons at people.

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    LoveMyCountry wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    rabbit994 wrote:
    Fairfax County likes to shoot completely unresisting suspects.....

    That said, cops pointing guns at you means get the hell on the floor and hands away from your body. Regardless if Cop right or wrong, better to let 12 judge instead of 1 almighty.
    If you believe the witnesses, he never had a chance to get on the ground or get his hands away from his body. I wasn't there, so I can never really know what happened. The Pagans do have a serious reputationas "1 percenters" (the one percent of the population that are true psychopaths), even among other motorcycle clubs. This incident still reminds me too much of what I have heard of SIS of the LAPD. I personally believe that he had been established as a "threat to officer safety" in advance because of his combat veteran status. Once again, I can't know what was going through the minds of anyone present at the time. But still, in the minds of most, Pagan MC+ Marine combat vet= extremely dangerous individual. I don't think he ever had a snowball's chance to surrrender.
    Well, if that is the mindset of the authorities, we will be losing more troops at homethan we have overseas. Weren't the original Hell's Angels made up of disgruntled WWII vets who no longer fit into the molds they had come from? We willbe having a lot of people returning to the general population who can't or don't want to put their sheep suits backon. Are they all "hostiles" that will need to be eliminated?



    LoveMyCountry
    I guess I didn't make my point clearly. What I intended to say was that he had been pre-judged before the police got there. They never really intended to give him a chance to surrender. I'm not one of the sheeple either. I would probably ask "what the f*** do you want with me? I know I haven't done anything wrong!" My whole point was that the guy wasn't given a chance to comply. He never made a threatening move. He couldn't comply because he had been tased. And then he was executed on the ground.

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    rabbit994 wrote:
    I'm not, but situation was one of those why was SWAT out there at all? It was a non violent offender with zero evidence he was in possession of weapons. 3 squad cars with 6 uniformed officers could have taken him without need to dress up in black and point weapons at people.
    OK.. I just wanted it clear that that department is not a bunch of murders.

    In their defense.... he had committed several crimes of taking bets. Not really a big deal to me.. but it is against the law. We do not get to pick and choose what ones to follow. They also found narcotics in his house.

    It has been in the news a few times in the past regarding illegal poker games being robbed. I know that many operators had begun to pay for armed security. I also know that in onecase.. it was an off duty police officer who got in trouble for protecting an illegal operation.

    In the case of the shooting... They attempted to take him down during a poker game and that is why SWAT was used. They worried about meeting an armed security detail.

    Now, I am thinking it would have been better to nail him at the supermarket as he is getting back in her car if not at his office. But I think they had a search warrant and did not want to give him a chance to call and have anything destroyed.

    He was not a "good boy" he was caught red handed committingcrimes and when you dance with the devil.. you might get burned.

    I feel badfor him and his family. It was a tragic mistake. In no waydid Fairfax want or likethe ideahewas shot and killed.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    rabbit994 wrote:
    I'm not, but situation was one of those why was SWAT out there at all? It was a non violent offender with zero evidence he was in possession of weapons. 3 squad cars with 6 uniformed officers could have taken him without need to dress up in black and point weapons at people.
    OK.. I just wanted it clear that that department is not a bunch of murders.

    In their defense.... he had committed several crimes of taking bets. Not really a big deal to me.. but it is against the law. We do not get to pick and choose what ones to follow. They also found narcotics in his house.

    It has been in the news a few times in the past regarding illegal poker games being robbed. I know that many operators had begun to pay for armed security. I also know that in onecase.. it was an off duty police officer who got in trouble for protecting an illegal operation.

    In the case of the shooting... They attempted to take him down during a poker game and that is why SWAT was used. They worried about meeting an armed security detail.

    Now, I am thinking it would have been better to nail him at the supermarket as he is getting back in her car if not at his office. But I think they had a search warrant and did not want to give him a chance to call and have anything destroyed.

    He was not a "good boy" he was caught red handed committingcrimes and when you dance with the devil.. you might get burned.

    I feel badfor him and his family. It was a tragic mistake. In no waydid Fairfax want or likethe ideahewas shot and killed.

    I know he wasn't a completely good boy but I didn't hear he was found with drugs. All the news said he was standing by car when arrest happened and wasn't running. Yes, drug dealers need to have door battered down and submachine guns shoved in faces but non violent suspects committing non violent crimes don't need dress up in black session.





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    Assuming the pepper spray and switch blade were not planted and neither were produced by the guy what was the justification for use of deadly force. The guy was probably too busy puking and no doubt crapping his pants to comply with the get your hands out of your pockets command.

    Why can the police shoot a guy because they "feel" threatend (I call BS on this by the way) and I have to retreat first (at least in my state).

    Sickening

    I don't care if he was a bad guy or not. The crimes he commited were not justification for an assasination.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    rabbit994 wrote:
    I'm not, but situation was one of those why was SWAT out there at all? It was a non violent offender with zero evidence he was in possession of weapons. 3 squad cars with 6 uniformed officers could have taken him without need to dress up in black and point weapons at people.

    In their defense.... he had committed several crimes of taking bets. Not really a big deal to me.. but it is against the law.



    Now, I am thinking it would have been better to nail him at the supermarket as he is getting back in her car if not at his office. But I think they had a search warrant and did not want to give him a chance to call and have anything destroyed.

    He was not a "good boy" he was caught red handed committingcrimes and when you dance with the devil.. you might get burned.

    I feel badfor him and his family. It was a tragic mistake. In no waydid Fairfax want or likethe ideahewas shot and killed.
    Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
    I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.

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    Meathook wrote:
    Why can the police shoot a guy because they "feel" threatend (I call BS on this by the way) ...

    Sickening

    I don't care if he was a bad guy or not. The crimes he commited were not justification for an assasination.
    Strong accusation.

    I agree with you 100%. Hale was, essentially, murdered. Someone posted a story with a link to a drawing (Newsweek or Time) of the event, with the positions of the cars, the LEOs and Hale. Hale was entirely surrounded by at least 7 LEOs (perhaps as many as 11). (I'll try tofind that excellent drawing.)

    The lieutenent shot him 3 times from a distance of about 10-12 feet. He was the only one who fired. He freaked out. Got itchy fingered.

    I strongly support LE. But not on that mess.

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    According to Webster:

    Main Entry: as·sas·si·nate
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): -nat·ed; -nat·ing
    1 : to injure or destroy unexpectedly and treacherously
    2 : to murder (a usually prominent person) by sudden or secret attack often for political reasons


    I assume (I know bad) you think it is a strong statement because people generally apply premeditation with assassination but that does not have to be the case.

    I can jump to conclusions with the best of them and when I have, as far as I know, nobody has died. Bet that officer can't say the same.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
    I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.
    From what I recall.. he was part of a group that took in thousands a week. Number that comes to mind is $30,000 + so we are not talking $5.00 bets here. These were not some simple bets between friends.

    Betting is not something that is violent however.. I pointed out that at the time of the arrest operation.... I believe he had a poker game going on and the games being held now have armed security to prevent robberies. This is why SWAT was needed.

    Let's be careful on the words we use here... He was not "killed over a misdemeanor." This would make it sound like a death sentence was intentional and carried out. He was accidentally shot when the arrest take down had begun.

    If a civilian shoots a cop and it is accidental... I would be interested in hearing how it happened. It would be extremelyrare for this to even happen since civilians do not lawfully point firearms at the police on a daily basis.


    § 18.2-326. Penalty for illegal gambling.

    Except as otherwise provided in this article, any person who illegally gambles or engages in interstate gambling as defined in § 18.2-325 shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor. If an association or pool of persons illegally gamble, each person therein shall be guilty of illegal gambling.

    § 18.2-325. Definitions.

    1. "Illegal gambling" means the making, placing or receipt, of any bet or wager in this Commonwealth of money or other thing of value, made in exchange for a chance to win a prize, stake or other consideration or thing of value, dependent upon the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance, whether such game, contest or event, occurs or is to occur inside or outside the limits of this Commonwealth.

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    The really scary part of this whole story, is how easy it is for LE to fabricate something after the fact to justify their actions, and the mainstreampress just by and large accepts it.



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    LoveMyCountry wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Wow... I cannot believe they shot him for hands in his pockets! Ido not know all the details but this does disturb me. :?

    I am guessing that they had some prior history or information that he was armed or known to carry. The report did not mention if anything was found in his pockets so I am guessing they were empty.

    I would have used a bean bag on him before shooting him with a pistol. Too bad the taser did not work. Sincedeadly force was authorized.. they could have used batons to break both arms or sent a dog to attack him.

    But... he did fail to comply and he decided to take it beyond what was necessary. Better to be judged then buried.
    Read this article. Opinionated but well researched and footnoted.

    LoveMyCountry
    Opinionated? Oh My God was it bias and obvious where the writerstood. I could not even stand to read it all. It did provide more detail but I am not sure if I can believe everything I read based on the writer's bias view. :?

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
    I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.
    From what I recall.. he was part of a group that took in thousands a week. Number that comes to mind is $30,000 + so we are not talking $5.00 bets here. These were not some simple bets between friends.

    Betting is not something that is violent however.. I pointed out that at the time of the arrest operation.... I believe he had a poker game going on and the games being held now have armed security to prevent robberies. This is why SWAT was needed.

    Let's be careful on the words we use here... He was not "killed over a misdemeanor." This would make it sound like a death sentence was intentional and carried out. He was accidentally shot when the arrest take down had begun.

    If a civilian shoots a cop and it is accidental... I would be interested in hearing how it happened. It would be extremelyrare for this to even happen since civilians do not lawfully point firearms at the police on a daily basis.


    § 18.2-326. Penalty for illegal gambling.

    Except as otherwise provided in this article, any person who illegally gambles or engages in interstate gambling as defined in § 18.2-325 shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor. If an association or pool of persons illegally gamble, each person therein shall be guilty of illegal gambling.

    § 18.2-325. Definitions.

    1. "Illegal gambling" means the making, placing or receipt, of any bet or wager in this Commonwealth of money or other thing of value, made in exchange for a chance to win a prize, stake or other consideration or thing of value, dependent upon the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance, whether such game, contest or event, occurs or is to occur inside or outside the limits of this Commonwealth.
    No too long ago, a uniformed Norfolk cop shot a plainclothes Norfolk cop. Granted, not the same thing. The plainclothes officerwas wearing jeans and a white T-shirt. No badge displayed. No indication that he was law enforcement. He was holding a group of people at gunpoint. The uniformed cop shot him, and killed him. He was exonerated. If I had done the same thing, we wouldn't be having this conversation, unless you came to visit me on death row.

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    From what I read about the former soldier... it is alleged that he joined a motorcycle gang known for crimes including murders. For some reason, the police were watching him for some time and then decided to arrest him. I am not sure why.

    He refused to comply with police commands to see his hand. He was tasered and he continued to refuse to remove his hands. I am not sure why they decided to shoot him and from the information I have so far... do not see it being justified.

    I have been tasered!! Your muscles between the dartslocks upduring the5 second cycle.This is enough time for the police to take control and cuff you. It does not cause death, convulsions, vomiting, and any other side effects. It may cause you to "mess yourself" but it is rare.

    After the 5 seconds... you can get back up like nothing ever happened. You can immediately comply with any requests. I would rather be tasered than hit with mace.

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    I do appreciate you clearing up the "taking bets" thing. Being involved in a large scale gambling operation is different , in my mind, from taking bets. Another incident I forgot: In a restaurant not far from my house, several DEA agents got drunk and started to argue. Long story short, one of them threatened a guy in the parking lot, without notifying him he was DEA. The civilian showed him a gun (stupid, I admit). DEA shot him. They also shot his friend who was trying to drive off. DEA agent got a felony conviction for shooting the guy trying to escape. If I had been there, and shot one of the Feds, even not knowing who they were, believing that I was defending a guy that was only trying to escape a situation not of his making, I would have an address atthe cemetery. The DEA agent didn't even get jail time, and is now practicing law.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
    I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.
    Why does any of this surprise you?

    Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

    When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

    These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

    Regards
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    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    glocknroll wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Taking bets? This is something I know absolutely nothing about. Is this a felony? In particular, a violent felony? Was this guy killed over a few misdemeanors?
    I'm sorry, but "a tragic mistake" just doesn't wash with me. If a civilian shot a LEO in "a tragic mistake", he would tragically be on his way to the gurney for the hot shot.
    Why does any of this surprise you?

    Randy Weaver's wife and son were killed over a matter of $200 in taxes, and failing to appear in court when his case came up because of a scheduling screw up! All because he sawed off a shotgun barrel and got the saw kerf on the wrong side of the line. It was 1/8" too short. That mistake brought the wrath of two federal Agencies and a lot of local police down on him. In fairness to the FBI it should be noted that the BATFE has gotten them into every significant mess they have been involved in over the last 15 years.

    When the state tried to prosecute his wife's killer for murder, the Federal Government intervened. And lets face it, it was murder. I was taught not to fire unless I KNOW where the bullet will stop. If the SWAT teams on Ruby Ridge had practiced that small bit of shooting ethic, Weaver's wife might be alive today.

    These kinds of shooting are becoming all to common. After the fact the dead suspect is demonized in the press, and the general public buys the story. Why? Because the Government NEVER lies. Kinda reminds me of Richard M. Nixon commenting on his role in the Watergate coverup - "I am not a crook".

    Regards
    It really doesn't surprise me. Lon Horiuchi should have gone away for a long time, if not forever. At least the gov't admitted fault in that case. They payed Weaver's surviving children $1 million dollars each for the loss of their mother. It doesn't fix anything, but they admitted they were wrong.

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    glocknroll wrote:
    I do appreciate you clearing up the "taking bets" thing. Being involved in a large scale gambling operation is different , in my mind, from taking bets. Another incident I forgot: In a restaurant not far from my house, several DEA agents got drunk and started to argue.
    Long story short, one of them threatened a guy in the parking lot, without notifying him he was DEA. The civilian showed him a gun (stupid, I admit). DEA shot him. They also shot his friend who was trying to drive off. DEA agent got a felony conviction for shooting the guy trying to escape. If I had been there, and shot one of the Feds, even not knowing who they were, believing that I was defending a guy that was only trying to escape a situation not of his making, I would have an address atthe cemetery. The DEA agent didn't even get jail time, and is now practicing law.
    Welcome for the clarification...

    The DEA guy should not display his badge unless he is going to act under some legal authority and take action. And then.... if he needs to display his gun.. he SHOULD, when pratical, show his badge too.

    Having said that... the civilian decided to pull out a gun during a verbal argument. That was stupid. As I have mentioned here before.. You do not pull out your gununless you are ready and willing to use it.

    IMO... The DEA guy was justified in shooting without advising he is DEA. This would go for any civilian too in the same situation. Does the civilian seeing a gun say.. "Stop! I'm a CIVILIAN" and then shoot? OK, I was being funny there. If you think your going to be shot.. your not going to waste time beforetaking out the threat.

    Now.... shooting at the guy driving AWAY and NOT ARMED... I say that is not justified at all. He should have gone to jail for the second guy. That was stupid for him to do.

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