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Thread: gun free school zone

  1. #1
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    I am concerned about areas where otherwise legal exercise of the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is prohibited. Specifically a rumored law making it illegal to posses a firearm withing 1000 feet of a school. It seems to make it illegal for me to take my guns from my house to the city run firing range, as my home just falls within the 1000 foot expanse of one school, and the cities firing range directly borders another school. Looking at maps of the schools in my city, and drawing 1000 foot circles around them, my right to legally carry my firearm for my, and my families defense, is all but denied me. Virtually every business, neighborhood, or other public area falls within a 1000 food proximity to a school, seemingly making the right to bear arms null and void. Is there such a law in the state of Utah that so unreasonably restricts the otherwise legal possession of guns? My concern is legally carrying my firearm at one place of business, and a school being located a considerable distance away, even across a major highway, and being cited for having a firearm in a gun free zone, Even though I was not at a school, or even where I could easily get to a school without having to get in my car and drive.

    I understand that getting a CCW allows me to somewhat circumvent thisrumored restriction, but it will take several months to get my CCW permit, and I have the desire to legally, openly carry my firearm while I am going through the process of getting a CCW permit.

    Does anyone have any information that could help me understand this situation better?


    Seems to me that this means that in orem, wal-mart, most of the university mall, most of the buisnesses on University Avenue, large portions of state street, most outdoor parks, are all off limits. The red areas are not exactly 1000 feet, but they are close to 1000 feet from the nearest border of the school grounds.
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    Will try to get a good answer soon, pressed for time right now.

  3. #3
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    gmdfunk wrote:
    I am concerned about areas where otherwise legal exercise of the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is prohibited. Specifically a rumored law making it illegal to posses a firearm withing 1000 feet of a school. It seems to make it illegal for me to take my guns from my house to the city run firing range, as my home just falls within the 1000 foot expanse of one school, and the cities firing range directly borders another school. Looking at maps of the schools in my city, and drawing 1000 foot circles around them, my right to legally carry my firearm for my, and my families defense, is all but denied me. Virtually every business, neighborhood, or other public area falls within a 1000 food proximity to a school, seemingly making the right to bear arms null and void. Is there such a law in the state of Utah that so unreasonably restricts the otherwise legal possession of guns? My concern is legally carrying my firearm at one place of business, and a school being located a considerable distance away, even across a major highway, and being cited for having a firearm in a gun free zone, Even though I was not at a school, or even where I could easily get to a school without having to get in my car and drive.

    I understand that getting a CCW allows me to somewhat circumvent thisrumored restriction, but it will take several months to get my CCW permit, and I have the desire to legally, openly carry my firearm while I am going through the process of getting a CCW permit.

    Does anyone have any information that could help me understand this situation better?


    Seems to me that this means that in orem, wal-mart, most of the university mall, most of the buisnesses on University Avenue, large portions of state street, most outdoor parks, are all off limits. The red areas are not exactly 1000 feet, but they are close to 1000 feet from the nearest border of the school grounds.



    Utah Code Section 76-10-505.5




    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties. ...
    le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C035.htm - 4k - Cached - Similar pages


    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.


    Amended by Chapter 203, 2003 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C035.ZIP 2,551 Bytes


    SO...YES you can as a CCW carry in and around a school ( Private may be different, treat it as Private Property).

    Good Luck



    P.s If you have any Q's contact UTAH BCI @ 801-965-4445 or Clark Aposhian ( Chairman of the Board at BCI ) 801-560-4836 D.s



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    The code in the previous post refers to guns being prohibited on or about aschool premises. What is considered about the school premises? when you are walking a dog past the school on the public sidewalk? 100 feet away? or 1000 feet away as the federal gun free school zone law seems to state.

    I am also not concerned aboutbeing able to be on school property with a CCW permit. I know that with one I am able to skirt the whole issue legally. My concern is with being able to open carry,without a permit, following all the 2 action rules and such. I am not trying to go to a school, or near any schools, the thing is that if you are anywhere in orem, provo, american fork, etc you are probablywithin 1000 feet of a school, andfrom my understanding, possibly risking a 5 year prison sentance for just being a gun carrying American in the wrong place.

    Example of places around my home I would possibly open carry should I decide I wont get arrested are;

    University mall, which is less than 1000 feet from hilcrest elementry school

    Orem, Wal-mart which is less than 1000 feet from UVSC

    Most any of the stores on University parkway which are less than 1000 feet from Westmore Elementry school

    SCERA park which borders SCERA elementry school



    I dont want to open carry because I am out looking for a fight, I want to be able to open carry in the places I normaly frequent, for my own protection, and partialy even as a political statement. I am working on getting a CCW but the earliest class i could sign up for is late june, and it could be months after that before I get my permit in the mail. So for now my concern is unerstanding the unlicenced open carry laws.

    So are there any state laws or more recent case law or anything that sheds further light on the federal law? I already called clark from the BCI and spoke with him, and he said he had not thought about how much that law restricts people from legaly carrying a weapon. He told me it is not really prosecuted, but would hate to have me the guinea pig, and told me to read the law. I think later I will post it here.




    *edit*



    part q

    (q)

    (1) The Congress finds and declares that—

    (A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;

    (B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;

    (C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary[2] the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;

    (D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;

    (E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;

    (F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;

    (G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;

    (H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves—even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and

    (I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation’s schools by enactment of this subsection.

    (2)

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is—

    (I) not loaded; and

    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

    (3)

    (A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm—

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;

    (iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or

    (iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.

    (4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.



    I dont remember where it was in relation to this part of the law but further into the code it states that a school zone consists of 1000 feet around the school





    This law was passed in the early 1990's after which it was deemed unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme court, in 1996 under president Clinton some very minor changes where made and the law was re-passed. if you search for USC 18 922q you can find many convincing papers from various law schools that say that this law is on the books now but possibly only because no case concerning it has come to the supreme court since 1996 but the constitutionality of the law with the 1996 changes is still in doubt.


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    76-3-203.2. Definitions -- Use of dangerous weapon in offenses committed on or about school premises -- Enhanced penalties.
    (1) (a) As used in this section and Section 76-10-505.5, "on or about school premises" means any of the following:
    (i) in a public or private elementary, secondary, or on the grounds of any of those schools;
    (ii) in a public or private vocational school or postsecondary institution or on the grounds of any of those schools or institutions;
    (iii) in those portions of any building, park, stadium, or other structure or grounds which are, at the time of the act, being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school or institution under Subsections (1)(a)(i) and (ii);
    (iv) in or on the grounds of a preschool or child-care facility; and
    (v) within 1,000 feet of any structure, facility, or grounds included in Subsections (1)(a)(i), (ii), (iii), and (iv).
    (b) As used in this section:
    (i) "Dangerous weapon" has the same definition as in Section 76-1-601.
    (ii) "Educator" means any person who is employed by a public school district and who is required to hold a certificate issued by the State Board of Education in order to perform duties of employment.
    (iii) "Within the course of employment" means that an educator is providing services or engaging in conduct required by the educator's employer to perform the duties of employment.


    76-10-523. Persons exempt from weapons laws.
    (2) The provisions of Subsections 76-10-504(1)(a), (1)(b), and Section 76-10-505 do not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued:
    (a) pursuant to Section 53-5-704; or
    (b) by another state or county.

    53-5-704 is the concealed permit statute.

    So you are legal within 1000 feet if you have a permit. You are not legal to do so without a permit.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  6. #6
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    You may have heard about a federal law. You can read parts of it at the linked site below. An earlier version of the law was struck down by the US Supreme Ct. Congress then enacted a similar law. Its still on the books. I don't have the courage to test it.

    http://www.bloomfieldpress.com/GUN_F..._ZONES_ACT.pdf


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Well I guess I have my answer. I need to be really familier with where the schools and day cares are in my area. guess I will be pretty much confined to open carrying in the lindon wal-mart until around august when my CCW permit will arrive. or more realisticly, the practicalities of open carry with these laws, make it so that I can't really do it at all. This kind of discourages me from pursuing any of it.

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    A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph

    (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— (

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which
    the school zone is located
    or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    See the highlighted subsection. If you're state issue permits/licenses, and the state says schools are ok, then schools are ok.

    ProguninTN



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    gmdfunk wrote:
    This kind of discourages me from pursuing any of it.
    That's the intention. The anti-gunpoliticiansknow the bad-guys don't give a rip about gun laws. There is nothing anti-gun politicians would like more than you feeling discouraged and doing nothing. It lets them keep the votes and power they get from anti-gun groups and citizens.

    Use the time until the permit arrives to become well versed in firearms law and Fourth Amendment court cases relating to being stopped by a police officer; it will be time well spent.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    I'll do that,

    When I get my permit, I want to be fully aware of what I am entitled to do under the law. there are alot of misinformed people that have them. my boss has a CCW and carries regularly, but swears that you cant openly carry in utah unless you are out in the woods.

    I think that I do want to openly carry, beforeSeptember, a time or to, probably in a well planned out area (to avoid school's and day care centers and what-not) just because it is my right to do so and I just want to do it because I can.



    Thanks for the help to everyone who posted. Hopefully some day the laws will become more resonable.

  11. #11
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    gmdfunk wrote:
    I'll do that,

    When I get my permit, I want to be fully aware of what I am entitled to do under the law. there are alot of misinformed people that have them. my boss has a CCW and carries regularly, but swears that you cant openly carry in utah unless you are out in the woods.

    I think that I do want to openly carry, beforeSeptember, a time or to, probably in a well planned out area (to avoid school's and day care centers and what-not) just because it is my right to do so and I just want to do it because I can.



    Thanks for the help to everyone who posted. Hopefully some day the laws will become more resonable.
    Tell Your Boss he is wrong about the CCW and Open Carry, this is a PREEMPTIVE STATE and where you can CCW you pretty much OC // call UTAH BCI @ 801-965-4445 if you have any further Q's and need directions



    Utah Code Section 76-10-505





    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street. (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm: ...
    le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_0C034.htm - 2k - Cached - Similar pages


    76-10-505. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.
    (1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
    (a) in or on a vehicle;
    (b) on any public street; or
    (c) in a posted prohibited area.
    (2) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.


    Amended by Chapter 328, 1990 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_0C034.ZIP 1,712 Bytes


  12. #12
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    GMD,

    There is another option. You could try applying from a different state, and carry on that license, and it'll at least protect you from the state law. Maine, and New Hampshire come to mind.

    -Lonnie

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    One thing that should be pointed out is, in order to prosecute you on this Federal law they have to prove you KNOWINGLY knewthat there was a school. If your going down to the local walmart and didn't know there was a school on the other side in the subdivision. Therefore, they would be hard pressed to prove intent. And prove that you KNEW there was a school. Now if you live in that subdivision and you have a kid that goes to that school it would be hard to prove that you didn't know.

    Now granted I'm not a lawyer but i am a thinker.

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