molonlabetn
Regular Member
imported post
para_org wrote:
para_org wrote:
I like you already.
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Is it legal to resist a civil rights violation?
- Thread starter glocknroll
- Start date
Tomahawk
Regular Member
imported post
para_org wrote:
Soundsabout rightto me.
You should know, however, that the day when America becomes too much like Nazi Germany is the day when the cops don't bother standing around listening to you talk about your rights, but just drag you off somewhere and beat the daylights out of you or kill you outright.
This happens in many countries all the time, but in the US it's the exception rather than the rule.
As long as we have enough people who are willing and knowledgable to be the watchdogs, as you are doing, we have a chance to save ourselves from going down that dark road.
Hat's off to you, para.
para_org wrote:
Soundsabout rightto me.
You should know, however, that the day when America becomes too much like Nazi Germany is the day when the cops don't bother standing around listening to you talk about your rights, but just drag you off somewhere and beat the daylights out of you or kill you outright.
This happens in many countries all the time, but in the US it's the exception rather than the rule.
As long as we have enough people who are willing and knowledgable to be the watchdogs, as you are doing, we have a chance to save ourselves from going down that dark road.
Hat's off to you, para.
Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
imported post
para_org wrote:
I have no particular objection to any of the above. But it kind of depends on how it all goes down. I too have had some "encounters" with the police. People who have not do not have their eyes opened to the truth.
In my most pointed experience, the incident began with me looking down the bore of a 12 gauge shotgun. He opened his car door, got behind it, and pointed the shotgun, before he said his first words. Did I verbally resist? You bet. Did I comply with every single order given by the guy with the shotgun? You bet. When the other 18 cars from 4 jurisdictions arrived did I continue to assert my rights? Hell yes. Did I continue to comply with orders from the 7 LEOs pointing guns at me. Damn right. Did I authorize a search of the vehicle, NO. Did they search it? Your damn right they did. Could I stop the search. No and if I had tried I would not have lived to tell about it.
I spent 40 minutes on my stomach, in the rain, in the mud, with a 12 gauge pointed at my head from 6 feet away, and with a cop yelling "Don't you move or I'll blow your head off" about twice every minute, until a store clerk was brought to the scene to confirm for these idiots that I and the guy with me were NOT the two black men that robbed her fur store 30 MILES AWAY! (both of us are unambiguously White). My truck did not even match the description of the getaway car.
Did I file a complaint afterwards. Your damn right I did. And I am obviously here to irritate all of you, so obviously I survived. There is no doubt in my mind that if I was black, I would have died that night. The guy with the shotgun was shaking so bad, he slammed his thumb in the action, and was bleeding the whole time. He could barely keep the muzzle still enough to keep it on target (me). The look in his eyes was sheer panic, and I knew that he would fire out of simple fear, if not on purpose, then by accident. You could smell the adrenaline coming off the guy. It was his second night on patrol.
My reaction that night WAS SELF DEFENSE. Just as certainly as pulling a gun on these guys would have been an act of suicide by cop. There are more tools in the bag of self defense that guns. The whole point of "self defense" is survival, and frankly, sometimes self defense means living long enough to take the bastards to court, by using ONLY your wits. Bring your brain to the fight or it won't be there when you need it.
There is no question that should the time come for an armed response to tyranny such as occurred in Nazi Germany, most of us would respond. While I agree we are further along that road then most people realize, and we are moving in the wrong direction. We are not there yet. We each must pick our battles, and fight them based on the circumstances of the situation.
I will not apologize to ANYONE for what I and my friend did that night to survive, and I reject the assertion put forth in this discussion that it was cowardess to comply with the orders of a man pointing a gun at my head. Come back and tell me all about it after you have looked down the bore of that shotgun with the frightened kid on the other end of it.
Regards
para_org wrote:
I have no particular objection to any of the above. But it kind of depends on how it all goes down. I too have had some "encounters" with the police. People who have not do not have their eyes opened to the truth.
In my most pointed experience, the incident began with me looking down the bore of a 12 gauge shotgun. He opened his car door, got behind it, and pointed the shotgun, before he said his first words. Did I verbally resist? You bet. Did I comply with every single order given by the guy with the shotgun? You bet. When the other 18 cars from 4 jurisdictions arrived did I continue to assert my rights? Hell yes. Did I continue to comply with orders from the 7 LEOs pointing guns at me. Damn right. Did I authorize a search of the vehicle, NO. Did they search it? Your damn right they did. Could I stop the search. No and if I had tried I would not have lived to tell about it.
I spent 40 minutes on my stomach, in the rain, in the mud, with a 12 gauge pointed at my head from 6 feet away, and with a cop yelling "Don't you move or I'll blow your head off" about twice every minute, until a store clerk was brought to the scene to confirm for these idiots that I and the guy with me were NOT the two black men that robbed her fur store 30 MILES AWAY! (both of us are unambiguously White). My truck did not even match the description of the getaway car.
Did I file a complaint afterwards. Your damn right I did. And I am obviously here to irritate all of you, so obviously I survived. There is no doubt in my mind that if I was black, I would have died that night. The guy with the shotgun was shaking so bad, he slammed his thumb in the action, and was bleeding the whole time. He could barely keep the muzzle still enough to keep it on target (me). The look in his eyes was sheer panic, and I knew that he would fire out of simple fear, if not on purpose, then by accident. You could smell the adrenaline coming off the guy. It was his second night on patrol.
My reaction that night WAS SELF DEFENSE. Just as certainly as pulling a gun on these guys would have been an act of suicide by cop. There are more tools in the bag of self defense that guns. The whole point of "self defense" is survival, and frankly, sometimes self defense means living long enough to take the bastards to court, by using ONLY your wits. Bring your brain to the fight or it won't be there when you need it.
There is no question that should the time come for an armed response to tyranny such as occurred in Nazi Germany, most of us would respond. While I agree we are further along that road then most people realize, and we are moving in the wrong direction. We are not there yet. We each must pick our battles, and fight them based on the circumstances of the situation.
I will not apologize to ANYONE for what I and my friend did that night to survive, and I reject the assertion put forth in this discussion that it was cowardess to comply with the orders of a man pointing a gun at my head. Come back and tell me all about it after you have looked down the bore of that shotgun with the frightened kid on the other end of it.
Regards
DKSuddeth
Accomplished Advocate
imported post
Hawkflyer wrote:
Hawkflyer wrote:
and you have no need to anyway. It is indeed a choice of picking your battles and that was one you certainly were not going to win. I don't blame you in the slightest and I don't think anyone else here will either. I think what most of us here (not truly speaking for anyone but me here) are talking about is the 'stop' to interrogate escalating because of illegal or unethical conduct from the officer.
imported post
I was speaking hypothetically (re: tattos and cattle cars). My run-ins with the cops haven't been as sinister as all that, merely annoying at times (although a cop friend of mine has informed me that I have an "approach with caution" warning in my record on the state crime database - no idea what that's about, but it might explain some of theresponse I've gotten from the police since that flashes up every time I get stopped). I appreciate that theirs is a difficult and typically thankless job, but we must reconcile the need for police with our own sense of dignity. I do not advocate appeasement at all costs, simply prudence.
-ljp
I was speaking hypothetically (re: tattos and cattle cars). My run-ins with the cops haven't been as sinister as all that, merely annoying at times (although a cop friend of mine has informed me that I have an "approach with caution" warning in my record on the state crime database - no idea what that's about, but it might explain some of theresponse I've gotten from the police since that flashes up every time I get stopped). I appreciate that theirs is a difficult and typically thankless job, but we must reconcile the need for police with our own sense of dignity. I do not advocate appeasement at all costs, simply prudence.
-ljp
HankT
State Researcher
imported post
Hawkflyer wrote:
I wouldn't call you a coward for what you did that night. Nor a weak pacifistsubject of the Third Reich. I'd call you "alive." Your responsibility in such a horrible nightmare of out-of-control LEO terror and incompetence was to act intelligently and to becoherent and ethical. You acquitted yourself exceptionallywell.
The "IF we are talking aout a police-state" premise is so incredibly false that it's not worth responding too. It's the product of small and ever-narrowing minds. For those paranoid-extremists, though, it seems like thewhole point of "self defense" is 80% survival, 20% martyrdom.But sometimes the percentages flip around.
I think they are generally in the category of dangerous people ("approach with caution") and they should be avoided.
Hawkflyer wrote:
I wouldn't call you a coward for what you did that night. Nor a weak pacifistsubject of the Third Reich. I'd call you "alive." Your responsibility in such a horrible nightmare of out-of-control LEO terror and incompetence was to act intelligently and to becoherent and ethical. You acquitted yourself exceptionallywell.
The "IF we are talking aout a police-state" premise is so incredibly false that it's not worth responding too. It's the product of small and ever-narrowing minds. For those paranoid-extremists, though, it seems like thewhole point of "self defense" is 80% survival, 20% martyrdom.But sometimes the percentages flip around.
I think they are generally in the category of dangerous people ("approach with caution") and they should be avoided.
ilbob
Campaign Veteran
imported post
There are practical matters to be considered here. The courts consistently rule in favor of any but the most egregious civil rights violations by police, with an occasional excursion into absurdity in the other direction that gets all the attention.
Bottom line is that after the fact, the cop(s) involved will write a report that will be considered as gospel by the courts, and no matter what the true facts are, you will come out looking like John Dillinger about to rob a bank.
There are practical matters to be considered here. The courts consistently rule in favor of any but the most egregious civil rights violations by police, with an occasional excursion into absurdity in the other direction that gets all the attention.
Bottom line is that after the fact, the cop(s) involved will write a report that will be considered as gospel by the courts, and no matter what the true facts are, you will come out looking like John Dillinger about to rob a bank.
CrashVector
Regular Member
imported post
Here's the bottom line in my state:
LA RS 40:1379.3
(a) A homice shall be deemed as justified in the course of preventing false or illegal arrest against one's own person
It goes on, but that's the part relavent to this discussion.
Here's the bottom line in my state:
LA RS 40:1379.3
(a) A homice shall be deemed as justified in the course of preventing false or illegal arrest against one's own person
It goes on, but that's the part relavent to this discussion.
HankT
State Researcher
imported post
ilbob wrote:
ilbob wrote:
You must be from Chicago...
mark edward marchiafava
Banned
imported post
I, too, am from Louisiana..........!!!!! But here's what the US supreme court said about this very situation. I HIGHLY suggest EVERYONE, especially the LEO community, go read and re-read the supreme's decision John Bad Elk vs United States..........
It said, in summary;
1. A chief of police isn't God,
2. An officer cannot carry out the illegal action prompted by the chief,
3. A citizen DOES have the right to use deadly force to prevent his false arrest,
4. When a LEO operates OUTSIDE the limits of the law, he does so at his own risk.
To the best of my knowledge, John Bad Elk has not been overturned.
I, too, am from Louisiana..........!!!!! But here's what the US supreme court said about this very situation. I HIGHLY suggest EVERYONE, especially the LEO community, go read and re-read the supreme's decision John Bad Elk vs United States..........
It said, in summary;
1. A chief of police isn't God,
2. An officer cannot carry out the illegal action prompted by the chief,
3. A citizen DOES have the right to use deadly force to prevent his false arrest,
4. When a LEO operates OUTSIDE the limits of the law, he does so at his own risk.
To the best of my knowledge, John Bad Elk has not been overturned.
mark edward marchiafava
Banned
imported post
One simple question: did you actually READ John Bad Elk vs United States?
EVERY gun owner and EVERY LEO needs to read this.
Again, act outside the law, suffer the consequences. I know that's strong language, especially for keyboard kommandos who would never dare stand up and confront anyone.
One simple question: did you actually READ John Bad Elk vs United States?
EVERY gun owner and EVERY LEO needs to read this.
Again, act outside the law, suffer the consequences. I know that's strong language, especially for keyboard kommandos who would never dare stand up and confront anyone.
Citizen
Founder's Club Member
imported post
Legba wrote:
Legba wrote:
Wise advice. Play the game deliberately, and know how the game is played. A judge can whack a cop a lot harder with the 4th Amendment than you can.
DKSuddeth
Accomplished Advocate
imported post
Cut And Shoot wrote:
Cut And Shoot wrote:
in your world of absolutes, i'm sure that is the case. I don't believe anyone in here stated that they would open fire on LEOs because of an illegal search, however, try to illegally arrest me and the LEO is now responsible for the escalation and any repercussions. The way it should be.
Article1section23
Regular Member
4sooth
Regular Member
imported post
Crashvector--thanks for the LA RS on resisting illegal arrest.
In the late 70''s or early 80's a state trooper was killed by a citizen he was trying to arrest.The officer knew the arrest was illegal(as was shown by his training records)and the citizen was cognizant of the law.
This was a state supreme court decision-understandably not popular with the police community.But --- this was constantly stressed during our reserve classes---KNOW what you're doing is proper under the law.
I have tried to no avail to find this case but everybody is tight lipped about it so my search continues and when I find the case I will post it .
If anyone out there knows of this--feel free to e-mail me or post the decision.
Crashvector--thanks for the LA RS on resisting illegal arrest.
In the late 70''s or early 80's a state trooper was killed by a citizen he was trying to arrest.The officer knew the arrest was illegal(as was shown by his training records)and the citizen was cognizant of the law.
This was a state supreme court decision-understandably not popular with the police community.But --- this was constantly stressed during our reserve classes---KNOW what you're doing is proper under the law.
I have tried to no avail to find this case but everybody is tight lipped about it so my search continues and when I find the case I will post it .
If anyone out there knows of this--feel free to e-mail me or post the decision.
mark edward marchiafava
Banned
imported post
Search for state troopers killed in Louisiana during that time period and take it from there.
Search for state troopers killed in Louisiana during that time period and take it from there.
4sooth
Regular Member
imported post
Mark---thanks for the idea--I will try that.
CrashVector---the RS you cited deals with various concealed carry laws and regs---but there is nothing about resisting illegal arrest or anything else close.
Are you sure that is the correct statute?
Mark---thanks for the idea--I will try that.
CrashVector---the RS you cited deals with various concealed carry laws and regs---but there is nothing about resisting illegal arrest or anything else close.
Are you sure that is the correct statute?
Bravo_Sierra
Regular Member
imported post
Total violation of your forth amendment rights. "Securing" the weapon while they verify your legality is fine, but if the dismantle your weapon, remove the magazine, etc or don't return it, then they are screwed. Get a good lawyer and sue the state police for unlawful search and seizure.
glocknroll wrote:
Total violation of your forth amendment rights. "Securing" the weapon while they verify your legality is fine, but if the dismantle your weapon, remove the magazine, etc or don't return it, then they are screwed. Get a good lawyer and sue the state police for unlawful search and seizure.
glocknroll wrote: