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Thread: Banned from Wal-Mart

  1. #1
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    Yeah, yeah, it finally happened. Here is MY side of the story:

    I was with my friend and her family in Charlotsville, VA. We wanted to do some shopping and seeing the scenic views. We drove to Wal-Mart in Waynesboro. We were in the store approx 1 hour. Numerous customers noticed me carrying my firearm, yet didn't have any noticeable reaction. Even a few Wal-Mart associates noticed and didn't say a word. It was only until I was LEAVING when the door greeter noticed and had a huge reaction. She then told another co-worker of what she had seen. While I was outside eating a tasty McD double cheeseburgerand conversing with my friend while he was smoking, an employee approached me.

    Employee - Is that a gun?

    Me - Yes.

    Emp - A real gun?

    Me - Uh-huh.

    Emp - It's not a BB gun?

    Me - No. (wtf, this lady is really simple)

    Emp - You took that inside the store?

    Me - Yeah. (NO, I left it outside on it's leash)

    Emp - Do you have a license to carry that?

    Me - State of Virginia doesn't require a license.

    Emp - WHAT?!

    Me - STATE OF VIRGINIA DOESN'T REQUIRE ME TO HAVE A LICENSE TO CARRY IT! (that's what I should have said, but I just repeated my first answer in a calm manner)

    So, she then put this disgusted look on her face and walked away. My friend and I looked at each other and shrugged. 45 seconds later, the family comes out and we make our way to the car. 2 steps before getting to the car, a LEO walked up to me and asked if I could speak with him. I complied. Conversation went on like this:

    LEO - So what's going on?

    Me - I have no clue.

    LEO - Well, we received a call about a man with a gun. They where walking around the store looking for you.

    Me - No one didn't say a thing to me except "do you need any help today?". Besides I was outside.

    LEO - Do you have a permit?

    Me - Nope.

    LEO - Don't you think that carrying like that would scary other people?

    Me - Depends. But have I did anything illegal?

    LEO - No, but if I weren't on the job, and I saw you carrying, I would have some concern.

    Me - When was the last time youheard of a criminal open carrying? (2 seconds of silence).Am I free to go?

    LEO - Before you go, can I see some identification?

    Me - Why, if you don't mind me asking?

    LEO - To make sure you don't have any warrants or felony charges.

    Me - Did I do something wrong?

    LEO - No, I just want to know who I'm talking to.

    Me - Am I required to show you identification right now?

    LEO - No, but I now feel uneasy that you won't show me your ID.

    Me - I understand you are doing you job, and I have the utmost respect for you, however if I have done nothing wrong and I am not required to show ID, I'm going to be on my way.

    LEO - If you just leave, I cannot complete the call that I'm on. We can do this 1 of 2 ways. You can just show me your ID and I'll let you be on your way OR I can ask the store manager if he wants to ban you from Wal-Mart and at that point, it WILL require you to provide ID. If we take choice number 2, I would have to detain you.

    Me - Do what you must do.

    At this point he radios for another unit to speak with the manager. So while we are waiting (it's been about 10 mins so far) we starting chatting about guns and the recent VT shooting. Almost 5 mins later, another unit pulls up and the 1st LEO explains the situation. First thing out the 2nd LEO's mouth was:

    2nd LEO - Why is the hammer cocked back?

    Me - That's the way I like to carry it.

    2nd LEO - So why do you have it cocked back?

    Me - Because it's a 1911.

    2nd LEO - (blank stare)

    Me - It was designed to be carried in condition one.

    2nd LEO - (blank stare)

    Me - "Cocked and locked".

    2nd LEO - Well that's dangerous. Someone could bump into you and it could go off.

    Me - It has 3 safeties, the firing pin, the thumb, and grip.

    1st LEO - we are waiting for the manager to come out.

    (5 mins later) 1st LEO steps away and speaks to the manager. (2 mins later) 1st LEO explains that the manager has to call his manager. (10 mins later) They fill out the paper work and I'm on my way.

    WTF...

    So when I got home I called 1-800-WALMART laid down the 411 and they said I will get a call within a few business days.

    I will still continue to open carry. I will continue to open carry until my gun gets tired of being carried openly.



    Your thoughts and comments will be most appreciated.



    ***special thanks to Jim for lending an ear when I need to talk***

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    You're my hero. Good job.

    Did you ever show ID??

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    Yeah, I had to. So they could write out the paper work that if I come back they can charge me with trespassing etc.

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    WTF



    :shock:

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Danbus, you never cease to amaze me with your logic and calm demeanor. I can only hope I will react with such poise if I'm ever in that type of situation.

    Please keep us posted. I am so disappointed you've had these troubles. And I hope Wal-Mart does the right thing and reiterates their corporate policy to the store manager.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Key phrase: "Am I being detained?"

    No?

    "Then I will be leaving. Thanks for your time."

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    Danbus, that was awesome, you did great!

    I'd be very interested to see if the LEO's got a copy of the report from WalMart and ran your ID based on that.



    You smell that?



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    FOIA TIME!!!!



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    We can do this 1 of 2 ways. You can just show me your ID and I'll let you be on your way OR I can ask the store manager if he wants to ban you from Wal-Mart and at that point, it WILL require you to provide ID. If we take choice number 2, I would have to detain you.
    Why was the LEO detaining him to help Walmart fill out paperwork? Is there a section in the VA code about being banned from Walmart?

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    Given your position and objectives, I think you did an excellent job, danbus. Very effective and methodical. Textbook procedure.

    I would write a formal letter to Customer Relations/Services (addressed to a specificexecutive/director) with a cc to that corporate guy in Bentonville that gets cited here occasionally.

    Excellent write-up, also. You even qualified it as "MY side of the story." That's quality work.





  10. #10
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    Wow.

    Maybe, just maybe, he will get something in writing from corporate.

    One question - can the police detain someone while asking the manager if he wants them banned? It seems that the police were trying to get him banned.


  11. #11
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    danbus wrote:
    Yeah, yeah, it finally happened. Here is MY side of the story:

    I was with my friend and her family in Charlotsville, VA. We wanted to do some shopping and seeing the scenic views. We drove to Wal-Mart in Waynesboro. We were in the store approx 1 hour. Numerous customers noticed me carrying my firearm, yet didn't have any noticeable reaction. Even a few Wal-Mart associates noticed and didn't say a word. It was only until I was LEAVING when the door greeter noticed and had a huge reaction. She then told another co-worker of what she had seen. While I was outside eating a tasty McD double cheeseburgerand conversing with my friend while he was smoking, an employee approached me.

    Employee - Is that a gun?

    Me - Yes.

    Emp - A real gun?

    Me - Uh-huh.

    Emp - It's not a BB gun?

    Me - No. (wtf, this lady is really simple)

    Emp - You took that inside the store?

    Me - Yeah. (NO, I left it outside on it's leash)

    Emp - Do you have a license to carry that?

    Me - State of Virginia doesn't require a license.

    Emp - WHAT?!

    Me - STATE OF VIRGINIA DOESN'T REQUIRE ME TO HAVE A LICENSE TO CARRY IT! (that's what I should have said, but I just repeated my first answer in a calm manner)

    So, she then put this disgusted look on her face and walked away. My friend and I looked at each other and shrugged. 45 seconds later, the family comes out and we make our way to the car. 2 steps before getting to the car, a LEO walked up to me and asked if I could speak with him. I complied. Conversation went on like this:

    LEO - So what's going on?

    Me - I have no clue.

    LEO - Well, we received a call about a man with a gun. They where walking around the store looking for you.

    Me - No one didn't say a thing to me except "do you need any help today?". Besides I was outside.

    LEO - Do you have a permit?

    Me - Nope.

    LEO - Don't you think that carrying like that would scary other people?

    Me - Depends. But have I did anything illegal?

    LEO - No, but if I weren't on the job, and I saw you carrying, I would have some concern.

    Me - When was the last time youheard of a criminal open carrying? (2 seconds of silence).Am I free to go?

    LEO - Before you go, can I see some identification?

    Me - Why, if you don't mind me asking?

    LEO - To make sure you don't have any warrants or felony charges.

    Me - Did I do something wrong?

    LEO - No, I just want to know who I'm talking to.

    Me - Am I required to show you identification right now?

    LEO - No, but I now feel uneasy that you won't show me your ID.

    Me - I understand you are doing you job, and I have the utmost respect for you, however if I have done nothing wrong and I am not required to show ID, I'm going to be on my way.

    LEO - If you just leave, I cannot complete the call that I'm on. We can do this 1 of 2 ways. You can just show me your ID and I'll let you be on your way OR I can ask the store manager if he wants to ban you from Wal-Mart and at that point, it WILL require you to provide ID. If we take choice number 2, I would have to detain you.

    Me - Do what you must do.

    At this point he radios for another unit to speak with the manager. So while we are waiting (it's been about 10 mins so far) we starting chatting about guns and the recent VT shooting. Almost 5 mins later, another unit pulls up and the 1st LEO explains the situation. First thing out the 2nd LEO's mouth was:

    2nd LEO - Why is the hammer cocked back?

    Me - That's the way I like to carry it.

    2nd LEO - So why do you have it cocked back?

    Me - Because it's a 1911.

    2nd LEO - (blank stare)

    Me - It was designed to be carried in condition one.

    2nd LEO - (blank stare)

    Me - "Cocked and locked".

    2nd LEO - Well that's dangerous. Someone could bump into you and it could go off.

    Me - It has 3 safeties, the firing pin, the thumb, and grip.

    1st LEO - we are waiting for the manager to come out.

    (5 mins later) 1st LEO steps away and speaks to the manager. (2 mins later) 1st LEO explains that the manager has to call his manager. (10 mins later) They fill out the paper work and I'm on my way.

    WTF...

    So when I got home I called 1-800-WALMART laid down the 411 and they said I will get a call within a few business days.

    I will still continue to open carry. I will continue to open carry until my gun gets tired of being carried openly.



    Your thoughts and comments will be most appreciated.



    ***special thanks to Jim for lending an ear when I need to talk***
    I understand your point of view, but in todays world u cant have that kind of attitude towards cops. Eventhough there is nothing wrong the way you handled the situation but u created a drama, and drew attention. If you return to that location in the future u will be arrested. I have barred people in the past, as long as they cooperate and help me help them we are cool. Even if a cops came up to me and said do u want to barr them? I would say nah they are cool, no need for that. Cops on the job has arrogance and just dont show it. They demand respect and want to be treated same as you are. If you had just showed him the ID and then gave him the lecture then he wud have gotten the idea that your not some ordinary folks from the corner but well versed and tactical. Patience is the key my man. "sometimesu gotta go with the flow and not create a big issue out of it" later u cud have filed complaint on that officer but now u cant. Anyway good job. But you could have done it better!

  12. #12
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    I think you did very well! Too bad you got this sort of treatment from the LEO and from Wal-Mart.

    When the officer said "We can do it1 of 2 ways" you could have replied, "I'll take the 3rd way, which is to leave. Good-bye!"

    I loved the priceless little gem from the Wal-Mart lady "Is that a gun?" Clearly the proper response is, "No, I'm just glad to see you."

    I think the one officer's apparent ignorance of your 1911 shows that all cops are not "gun people" by any stretch. One rarely sees a police officer with a 1911, right? Small wonder.
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    My thoughts:

    #1. The only thing that I thinkI would have addedwas the key word "open". "In the state of Virginia, I'm not required to have a permit to open carry my sidearm." Kind of petty I know, but it would have educated her more and left little room for interpretation. From your quote of what she said, I don't think it would have registered anyway.

    #2. 'The officer wouldn't have been able to complete the call if you left.'I wonder what thatis that supposed to mean? To me, phrased like that, it didn't sound like it was YOUR problem but the Officer's and Wal Mart's. It would have been interesting to hear a clarification of that statement. If it didn't have any bad consequences for you, I would have then said "sorry to hear that, have a good day." and left.

    Great handling of the situation! Not too many people can keep a cool head in even situations like that. I think I would have a hard time with the anxiety that would probably fill me and prevent me from being clear, concise and cool headed. Cops make me nervous whether I'm carrying or not. Don't know why.

    Keep us updated definitely! For a second I thought you were talking about the Wal Mart in Charlottesville, Since I live nearby and work in Charlottesville, it grabbed my attention right away. I've never OC'd at this one yet though.

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    swatpro911 wrote:
    I understand your point of view, but in todays world u cant have that kind of attitude towards cops. Eventhough there is nothing wrong the way you handled the situation but u created a drama, and drew attention. If you return to that location in the future u will be arrested. I have barred people in the past, as long as they cooperate and help me help them we are cool. Even if a cops came up to me and said do u want to barr them? I would say nah they are cool, no need for that. Cops on the job has arrogance and just dont show it. They demand respect and want to be treated same as you are. If you had just showed him the ID and then gave him the lecture then he wud have gotten the idea that your not some ordinary folks from the corner but well versed and tactical. Patience is the key my man. "sometimesu gotta go with the flow and not create a big issue out of it" later u cud have filed complaint on that officer but now u cant. Anyway good job. But you could have done it better!
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by "that kind of attitude". Do you mean by not showing ID that he had an "attitude" and was creating "drama"? He wasn't breaking the law and therefore didn't have to produce ID. I fail to see how exercising your rights equals having an attitude. It also sounds like he was extremely patient. From the times stated in the post it sounds like this encounter lasted 30 minutes or more. I don't know a lot of people that could have handled it that well given that he wasn't doing anything illegal.


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    72Malibu wrote:
    My thoughts:
    #2. 'The officer wouldn't have been able to complete the call if you left.'I wonder what thatis that supposed to mean? To me, phrased like that, it didn't sound like it was YOUR problem but the Officer's and Wal Mart's. It would have been interesting to hear a clarification of that statement. If it didn't have any bad consequences for you, I would have then said "sorry to hear that, have a good day." and left.
    IANAL Mixed into this event is trespass law. To have been detained would prevent the cure for trespass - departure.

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    " understand your point of view, but in todays world u cant have that kind of attitude towards cops. Eventhough there is nothing wrong the way you handled the situation but u created a drama, and drew attention. If you return to that location in the future u will be arrested. I have barred people in the past, as long as they cooperate and help me help them we are cool. Even if a cops came up to me and said do u want to barr them? I would say nah they are cool, no need for that. Cops on the job has arrogance and just dont show it. They demand respect and want to be treated same as you are. If you had just showed him the ID and then gave him the lecture then he wud have gotten the idea that your not some ordinary folks from the corner but well versed and tactical. Patience is the key my man. "sometimesu gotta go with the flow and not create a big issue out of it" later u cud have filed complaint on that officer but now u cant. Anyway good job. But you could have done it better!"



    Yeah in today's society, which has less homicides and violent crime than in the past 20 years

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    If you just leave, I cannot complete the call that I'm on.
    Hooey.
    Sure he could. Even if he couldn't - what makes it your problem?

    When told you are not being detained - leave immediately.

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    I forwarded this to my girlfriend Kim and we are contemplating driving up to the this Wal Mart and seeing if a white man and woman OC cocked and locked 1911's receive a different reaction. she sent me the following things to post as she can't access the sight from work:

    Joe,
    I thought he handled it marvelously. I understand the feeling of wanting to provide the ID to the officer just to get along with the officer and try to make their job easier so to speak, and I may have been inclined to show my ID, but I don't know that that is the right thing to do. I am not asked for my ID when I do other law abiding activities. Why should I have to count on being asked for my ID when I legally open carry? We should not be conditioned to expect to be asked for ID's. It's embarrassing being asked questions by police officers as though you're a criminal. I would say the Walmart associate caused the scene. I think the VCDL (I THINK SHE MEANT OCDO)member did everything he could do to not create a scene. People are robbed, raped, car-jacked, etc. in parking lots. We have a right to defend ourselves and a right to be treated like the law abiding citizens we are.

    Store management should have handled the situation more professionally and in a more educated manner rather than causing a scene that benefited nobody and wasted the time of a paying customer and two police officers who I'm sure had more important things to do.

    Kim




    AND



    I have a comment in response to "Don't you think that carrying like that would scary other people?":
    What does "other people" mean? People who are not police officers? People who don't open carry? People who aren't familiar with firearm safety? People who like waffles instead of pancakes? And what specifically would scare these "other people" if we knew who these other people were?
    I'm keenly aware of the fact that almost anybody who walks past me anywhere is capable of severely injuring me. In fact, a little old lady in Walmart could lift up a matching mixing bowl set and clobber me on the head. Because I have a fear, does that mean nobody over 110 pounds should be allowed in Walmart because they will scare me? That would mean all police officers are scary? That's ridiculous.
    Walmart does not have police officers on duty in the store. Even if they had police officers on duty in the store, they would not be able to hire enough police officers to walk with everybody from their car, walk with each person while they shop, then walk back to each person's car. We are responsible for our own personal safety. I wish I had lived one of these puppies and kittens kind of lives that these people in Walmart have apparently lived.

    Kim


    MAN AM I ONE LUCKY GUY OR WHAT AND NO SHE DOESN'T HAVE A SISTER.




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    swatpro911 wrote:
    I understand your point of view, but in todays world u cant have that kind of attitude towards cops. Eventhough there is nothing wrong the way you handled the situation but u created a drama, and drew attention. If you return to that location in the future u will be arrested. I have barred people in the past, as long as they cooperate and help me help them we are cool. Even if a cops came up to me and said do u want to barr them? I would say nah they are cool, no need for that. Cops on the job has arrogance and just dont show it. They demand respect and want to be treated same as you are. If you had just showed him the ID and then gave him the lecture then he wud have gotten the idea that your not some ordinary folks from the corner but well versed and tactical. Patience is the key my man. "sometimesu gotta go with the flow and not create a big issue out of it" later u cud have filed complaint on that officer but now u cant. Anyway good job. But you could have done it better!
    Uh...oooookee-doke. Whatever you say.

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    What's with the white and the black thing? I find that rather disingenuous. As a Southern man, I might even find that a little more than that.

    Anyway, interesting that after you were out of the store and off company property (I assume), you were detained by the officer for the manager. Seems to me, that would be after the fact and water over the bridge at that point. I did like the part about the 2nd LEO having some problems understanding Condition One. While I respect our officers of the law, it has been my experience that more than just a few have limited knowledge about firearms. I think that is a might curious.


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    As usual, Danbus dealt with an aggravating situation very well. I would have been both angry and annoyed, which would have made it difficult for me to handle things with Dan's characteristic aplomb.

    It is always easy to be a Monday morning quarterback, but after talking with Dan, I put myself in the situation, and decided that when the LEO asked me to stay, but indicated I wasn't being detained, I would have given him my card, written my cell phone number on the back and said "Officer, I've been very patient, but I've done nothing illegal, and I want to be on my way. Here's my card and phone number. If you or the store people need to discuss this further, feel free to call me and I will certainly get back to you. Bye, now". I can't imagine how any LEO could be upset by such an approach, since it shows one to be polite, above-board and civil, without being submissive.

    I've got a VCDL membership card around here somewhere; maybe I'll make some copies of that to put in my wallet. That would really say it all.....

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    swatpro911 wrote:
    I understand your point of view, but in todays world u cant have that kind of attitude towards cops. Eventhough there is nothing wrong the way you handled the situation but u created a drama, and drew attention. If you return to that location in the future u will be arrested. I have barred people in the past, as long as they cooperate and help me help them we are cool. Even if a cops came up to me and said do u want to barr them? I would say nah they are cool, no need for that. Cops on the job has arrogance and just dont show it. They demand respect and want to be treated same as you are. If you had just showed him the ID and then gave him the lecture then he wud have gotten the idea that your not some ordinary folks from the corner but well versed and tactical. Patience is the key my man. "sometimesu gotta go with the flow and not create a big issue out of it" later u cud have filed complaint on that officer but now u cant. Anyway good job. But you could have done it better!
    Uh...oooookee-doke. Whatever you say.

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    Tomahawk - you're a nut! ROTFLMAO!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


    Swatpro - No compromise! If we compromise who we are, they win. We are already becoming exactly what they want us to become...

    How about the reverse statement that "cops can't have that kind of attitude toward law abiding citizens"?

    You cannot detain to merely establish identity, that's an illegal "Terry Stop". Unless the LEO witnessed an articulable crime....walk away. This is America and there is no need to show "paperz" NOW OR EVER and we will NEVER let it become that. PERIOD.

    We have to hold onto each and every little freedom as if it were our last. For if we fail to do just that, one day it will be our last freedom.

    One would do well to heed Martin Niemöller’s warning about the consequences of capitulation in the face of tyranny. This was written in Germany during Hitler's reign:

    "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing.
    Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing.
    Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist.
    And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little.
    Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me."


    Or how about my more modern interpretation:

    First they limited fully automatic firearms,but I did not own one,so I said nothing.
    Then they came for the "Evil Black Assault Rifles", but I didn't have one,so I did nothing.
    Then they came for the hunters,but I wasn't a hunter.
    Then they came for the semi-auto guns, but I did not own one,so I did little.
    Then they came for me and there were no guns left and as no left to fight for me anyway.





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    Danbus, I need to get you that shirt!

    Regarding not having to show ID, where can I find that in my states laws? What kind of terms would I look for it under? My stomach would be rolling while I said it, but if I don't have to show ID, I will tell them so.

    LoveMyCountry

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    What's with the white and the black thing? I find that rather disingenuous. As a Southern man, I might even find that a little more than that.
    Black folks don't always get treated the same as white folks, even today. Inany case, being black is a part of identity. Similar to being Southern. Hardly disingenuous.


    SouthernBoy wrote:
    I did like the part about the 2nd LEO having some problems understanding Condition One. While I respect our officers of the law, it has been my experience that more than just a few have limited knowledge about firearms. I think that is a might curious.
    So the guy didn't know the model 1911. And you do. And you find that "curious?"

    Talk about being disingenuous.

    Hey, you know more about the 1911 than he does. That and3 bucks will get you a latte at Starbucks. :P

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Richmond, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    205

    Post imported post

    HankT wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    What's with the white and the black thing? I find that rather disingenuous. As a Southern man, I might even find that a little more than that.
    Black folks don't always get treated the same as white folks, even today. Inany case, being black is a part of identity. Similar to being Southern. Hardly disingenuous.


    SouthernBoy wrote:
    I did like the part about the 2nd LEO having some problems understanding Condition One. While I respect our officers of the law, it has been my experience that more than just a few have limited knowledge about firearms. I think that is a might curious.
    So the guy didn't know the model 1911. And you do. And you find that "curious?"

    Talk about being disingenuous.

    Hey, you know more about the 1911 than he does. That and3 bucks will get you a latte at Starbucks. :P
    Good call Hank...

    Maybe it's time to throw the "race flag" into the equation and throw that back at Walmart.

    You were AT WALMART shopping,acting in a legal, peaceful manner and made purchases without incident (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming here), after you were done, "Management" decided they wanted to throw you out of the store, permenantly, without first advising of any misconduct.

    As someone who has PERSONALLY pursued litigation against Walmart-Stores Inc and prevailed with an "$$out of court settlement$$", it is my opinion that you have been presented with a VERY strong racial discrimination case, courtesy of Walmart's idiocy.

    Corporate is CONSTANTLY paying out money to cover for "vigilante" store employees and managers doing "stupid $hit" like this.

    Assuming everything you say is factual, you have the opportunity to reverse a precident.

    Walmart just "BANNED" a customer for legally carrying a firearm in a store that was not posted, and you were not previously advised to "NOT CARRY"

    Open the Yellow Pages and thumb through LAWYERS for "Discrimination"

    You have been wronged by Walmart:

    1) You were targeted because you are a minority
    2) Your character & good name have been jeopardized by this<your priest could have witnessed this!>
    3) You have been "thrown out" of a major retailer without cause (trespassing is a double edged sword... Civil and Criminal -- your lawyer knows more)

    Don't talk to Walmart, SCREW WALMART, Call an attorney & keep calling until one of them smells blood.

    You know you've got them by the balls when a paralegal from Bentonville calls with a shoddy settlement offer & you give them to name & number of your lawyer and hang up the phone!




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