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Thread: MMM meeting report

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    I arrived at Caribou Coffee at 6:30 PM for the pre-MMM meetup. Several other OCDO members were in attendance and we ran into “The Donkey” by chance while there. Some of you may remember him as the Jim Webb supporter at two of the VCDL meetings who also was thrown out of a Senator Allen appearance for the crime of OC’ing. We talked about behavior at the MMM meeting among other topics.

    We left at 6:45 and arrived at the library at 6:50. We found the meeting room and collected just outside at the reception desk while waiting for an OCDO member to change out of his motorcycle riding gear. While waiting for this member, we noticed a gentleman inside the meeting who we didn’t recognize who was OC’ing. Things appeared calm inside the room and people were chatting.

    We entered the room as a group and while I could tell that the MMM organizers were irritated by our presence, we were basically ignored. I have a feeling the man in blue had informed them that many more of us would be showing up. After arriving in the room we checked out their table with literature and information and most of us collected one of each paper provided to read and or take home with us. I took one of each for my records.

    I had my video camera with me and at this time, and notified one of the organizers “Laura” that I intended to film the meeting. This is when the nasty, rude, and spiteful nature of this woman became apparent. She hissed at me “You will not film this meeting. We won’t allow it so please keep your camera turned off”. She repeated the statement a few more times perhaps thinking that I have a difficulty grasping our native language. She then turned from me and walked away, then hesitated, turned around and addressed all of us as a group saying “And don’t touch any of the food either, this table (pointing to the food and drink table) is not for you”.

    I didn’t catch all of the comment but at this time I heard a man call out loudly “You can shoot anyone you want”. I turned to see an older (60’s) grey haired man with a school-boy “gotcha” smirk on his face. He sure looked proud of himself. Since I had just had the episode with Laura about filming I replied “Oh really? You’re giving me permission to film you with my camera?” I never got a reply. I think the MMM group realized that saying outlandish things like that would not be useful; I didn’t overhear any more crazy comments while waiting for the meeting to start.

    We took our seats after a bit and waited for the meeting to start. OCDO member Unrequited had a shoulder holster on which points the muzzle of his handgun rearwards. The lady sitting behind him didn’t like the fact a gun was pointed at her and while I didn’t hear the full conversation, it seemed like she asked him to move or tilt his chair so it pointed another direction.

    The meeting started shortly with an introduction by Linda, MMM Northern VA Chapter President. Her part of the meeting involved discussing information about where you could and could not legally carry a gun. She used a projector to show PowerPoint slides of her talking points. This is where I started taking notes.

    Linda spoke about how easy it is to get a CC permit in VA, not much if any training required. I wrote this down because I wanted to tell her that criminals don’t need a permit or any training to CC a handgun anywhere they please.

    She said you can’t take guns into a church. We corrected her with the correct VA Code wording “without good and sufficient reason”. This is where they got irritated that we had corrected them and shown that they may not know everything or be presenting the whole truth. Linda seemed to accept the correction, but Laura in the back of the room asked us to not interrupt the meeting again.

    She said anyone could bring a gun onto school property as long as they left the gun cased and in the car.

    Next up was Bob Ricker. He introduced himself and ticked off his “gun credentials”. One thing that caught my attention was he said he owned an “assault weapon”. I thought it was odd that he owned a fully automatic rifle as they are mad expensive and “serve no sporting purpose”. Also, being a speaker a Brady event, why would they want an automatic weapon owner to speak for them? I know he was referring to a semi-automatic rifle but his term was incorrect.

    He then asked how many permit holders are in VA. We replied 135K. Wow, were allowed to speak! He then made a blanket statement that all the gun owners in attendance were VCDL members and asked us to raise our hands to identify if we were carrying firearms. Those of us OC’ing identified ourselves. He then asked how many members VCDL has. Jim Kaddison, VCDL EM told him we have 3,500 members. Mr. Ricker then stretched the facts and said “so these folks (135K permit holders) represent only 1% of the population of VA, they are not the majority, the rest of the state does not accept their views and rejects them”. I pointed out that 135K persons represent 2% of the population, not 1%. I also tried to tell him that “not applying for a CC permit does not in turn equate rejecting the philosophy of VCDL or firearms ownership in general”. I don’t remember the exact time when it occurred but this may have been when Laura from the back of the room said “"This is our meeting, we don't have to let you talk, and you need to SHUT UP!" Up to this point we had been correcting the blatant misstatements on an infrequent basis, but not being negative about it. Just correcting falsehood with truth.

    Bob then said he has a CC permit but rarely uses it. He only goes to “safe areas” so he rarely has a need. But, he said if he goes to somewhere he feels might be unsafe or questionable he will CC. He finished off by saying he didn’t know why someone would want to carry all the time when the area is safe. I called out “Such as a college campus!” I wanted to ask Bob where he had traveled where he felt unsafe and had CC’d.

    Bob next brushed on arming students on campus, and that it was a bad idea to let “kids” who are just out of high school, 18, 19 years old to carry guns on campus. He never directly said CC but he implied the “kids” would be concealed carrying. I wanted to point out that 18-20 year old college students would be required to OC on campus, which would discourage most of them from carrying.

    Next bob called an Uzi a “long gun”. Under the most liberal interpretation an Uzi is a short barreled rifle. I consider them pistols.

    Bob said that campuses do a poor job regulating underage drinking, so how would they regulate guns on campus any better? He was implying that students are irresponsible, the school administration doesn’t control them, and adding guns to the equation would have deadly consequences.

    Next he talked about VA not doing a good job stopping mentally defective citizens from buying guns, Cho being an example. He did not allow anyone to refute this or say VA is one of the better states for reporting mental problems to the government.

    He brought up straw purchases, stating a woman in WV bought six handguns at one time to pass to criminals. She was prosecuted and served time in prison. I can’t recall if the dealer was prosecuted or not. Somehow, VA is still a problem for illegal guns even after the one gun a month rule. Bob thinks all firearms should be registered in a database. I wanted to ask him if we should regulate and register fertilizer products as well (OKC).

    One of the MMM ladies then broke in and asked Bob “what is a semi-automatic handgun, and what is the benefit of owning one compared to other types of guns”. She implies that semi’s are designed to be more efficient killing tools. I think one of the OCDO members said “They are good enough for the police, why not us?”. Another replied “revolvers take more time to clean, they have six cylinders” (That comment came after the meeting ended and we were talking to that lady) The lady repeated “I don’t se the need for them” several times.

    Finally according to my notes, Bob said “Have you noticed during sporting events on TV such as the Super Bowl there are public service announcements telling viewers not to drink and drive, or smoking is bad for them and offering assistance to quit? Now, have you ever seen a firearms manufacturer air a PSA telling kids guns are dangerous, to leave them alone, and find an adult to secure them?” (I’m paraphrasing what he said, this is not exact… in fact, none of my quotes are direct quotes) Again, since we weren’t allowed to speak I kept my mouth shut. But, I wanted to tell him no PSA’s are necessary because THERE IS NO PROBLEM concerning firearms like there is for drunk driving or smoking. You don’t waste money airing a PSA for a non-issue. Smoking is one of the greatest killers known. Drunk driving is a HUGE problem. He did say the NRA has the “Eddie Eagle” program but in the next breath he said Eddie Eagle is nothing more than cartoon propaganda like Joe Camel. After this my notes end stop so I think this is where the meeting ended.

    We stuck around in the room for a few minutes talking to the MMM ladies answering questions. The one lady with the semi-automatic problem acted very self righteous and snobby, but was respectful unlike the other lady (Laura). I could see we were talking to a brick wall and walked outside the room.

    In the hallway Laura came walking up to me as I waited on some OCDO members to finish talking and exit the room. She told me I needed to hand her literature back to her. I asked her why and she said it was her property and I had stolen it from her. “Stole them?” I asked. She said “Yes, I paid for these papers to be printed, they are not for you and you will give them back to me now”. We went back and forth a few times and I decided to give them back to shut her up. She was really pissed off (had been all night too!). I informed her that I would be filming the next MMM meeting in Centreville. She had a hissy fit on the spot and told me several times she wouldn’t allow that to happen. I can’t remember but I think I told her that she could not stop me from taking video of a public meeting in a taxpayer funded library. I turned and walked away from her.

    Hopefully the audio recording that Chefjustin made can correct anything I typed wrong in this report. This is all from my memory backed up by my notes. We went to a restaurant later and talked at length about the experience and I’m hoping I’m not confusing the restaurant talk with the factual account of what really occurred.

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    I actually asked her if she minded me sitting in front of her, telling her it was a holster with full retention and a full trigger guard meaning there was no way the gun was any threat. In retrospect she probably wouldn't have noticed or realized unless I had brought it up. She balked but said I guess I have no choice, so I respectfully turned my chair 45 degrees so I wouldn't be "aiming" at her. She got up about 2 mins later anyways to move elsewhere so I straightened my chair and another OCDO member took a seat behind me.
    -Unrequited

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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    Wonder why she was so hostile? Didn't she realize was speaking to a dangerous, semiautomatic gun owner? :what:

    You should have been packin' this guy: :celebrate

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    Good write-up, NS. Extremely interesting. I've got a few comments that I'll save for later.



    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    We stuck around in the room for a few minutes talking to the MMM ladies answering questions. The one lady with the semi-automatic problem acted very self righteous and snobby, but was respectful unlike the other lady (Laura).
    Whoa, this is apositive little sign. It would be highlybeneficial to have some more dialogue like this.

    Two communities talking to each other. What a concept! But beware, as you educate them, they may very well enlighten you about a thing or two. If that doesn't happen, something'd be wrong.

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    unrequited wrote:
    and another OCDO member took a seat behind me.
    that was me!

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    .40 Cal wrote:
    Wonder why she was so hostile? Didn't she realize was speaking to a dangerous, semiautomatic gun owner? :what:
    Fearlessness is often an illusion created by anger, which is based on fear, which sometimes is based on ignorance.

    Since I'm guessing most people (anti's) fear guns, and it's been proven that they don't know much about them nor try to learn (ignorance), then you can say that the lady was hostile because she was ignorant. Sounds rational to me.

    :celebrate<-- For some reason this makes me think of that guy from the show "Family Guy". "Giggity giggity giggity goo!"

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    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    Yeah, there was an episode in which the dog dressed up in the bannana suit and sang, "It's peanut butter jelly time, peanut butter jelly time. Where you at? Where you at?"

    BTW, any good looking spectators at the MMM event?

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    ...besides our very own lady packing heat? I dunno... it's hard to see if somebody's good looking when they're snarling and spitting at you. > )
    -Unrequited

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    Yeah, even the cutest looking dog doesn't look so cute when the fangs are bared, lips are curled and snarling.

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    Excellent write up! Man, I wish I was there....

    I would recommend everyone attending read the following in full and maybe even bring a copy with your own notes/highlights for fast reference. You have to remember in their forum, words and the fear they create are their weapons. No point in being unarmed in a battle of wits.

    Ever been in a bad relationship because one person tried to change the other? Remember the resentment it caused? Same thing applies here.

    REMEMBER: YOU CANNOT CHANGE ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.

    Knowing that,do NOT go there thinking that you will convert even a single one. that will be your undoing. Just be respectful, knowledgeable, cool-headed and polite. You will completely rock their stereotype and THAT is what will plant the seeds of change in them.

    Gun Facts: (Thanks Bulldog!)
    http://www.mcgeedigitalmedia.com/GunFacts4-1-Print.pdf

    VSP Firearmslaws in handy trifold handout size: (Thanks Hawkflyer)
    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/downloads...rms%20Laws.pdf

    And an excellent articls on Clinical Hoplophobia that will help you understand why they're so sadly misinformed and afraid. It will help temper your argument and get your point across in terms they can understand (thanks Mike):
    http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/ragingagain.PDF

    Remember, the best way to disarm ANYONE is with a smile!

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    BobCav wrote:
    ...SNIP
    Remember, the best way to disarm ANYONE is with a smile!*
    Oh Crap! Now you tell me. I just got the sneer perfected.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    The only thing that I would take issue with is interupting the speakers (if I read it correctly). I know it was with the truth but I think we might do better with being exceptionally polite. Raising our hands to be called on if we wish to speak and so on. Makes us look even more reasonable and may help to keep their minds open enough to hear what we are saying.

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    unrequited wrote:
    I actually asked her if she minded me sitting in front of her, telling her it was a holster with full retention and a full trigger guard meaning there was no way the gun was any threat. In retrospect she probably wouldn't have noticed or realized unless I had brought it up. She balked but said I guess I have no choice, so I respectfully turned my chair 45 degrees so I wouldn't be "aiming" at her. She got up about 2 mins later anyways to move elsewhere so I straightened my chair and another OCDO member took a seat behind me.
    I'll admit that holster bothers me as well. While I realize it's not going to go off, just looking down a barrel of a gun drives me bonkers. Call it slight irrationallity on my part.

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    My holster's like that, with the end exposed and the business end sticking out of the leather a good inch or more. Kind of unnerving when I first started carrying with it but figured that no matter what type of holster I would wear, no holster material is going to stop a bullet from going in the direction it'saimed if I were to accidentally discharge it. Mine also has full retention and the trigger is covered.

    I have yet in my short 28 years of life to accidentally discharge anything except for a BB gun when I was really young. I remember complaining to my dad about it and he asked me if I was okay. I said there's a stinging red mark on my foot, but it didn't break the skin. He pretty much said "what did you learn?" after that. No incidents like that since.

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    rabbit994 wrote:
    I'll admit that holster bothers me as well. While I realize it's not going to go off, just looking down a barrel of a gun drives me bonkers. Call it slight irrationallity on my part.


    ...that's why I ask. > )
    -Unrequited

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    All shoulder holsters suffer from this issue. While people who use then never really feel it is an issue, to a lot of people around them it is. In order to prong the weapon into use, it must be pulled free of the holster and swept across at lease 180 degrees of arch. That also presents a safety issue.

    Cross draw and small of the back holster designs also suffer from a similar muzzle sweeping issue, though not as bad as shoulder rigs.

    As all of us know, ALL firearms safety rules start with NEVER point the gun at anything you do not intend to shoot. To be completely compliant with that concept, you must consider it in every aspect of firearms handling, including holster selection. It is fine for people to say they have never had an incident, but other people cannot possible know that, and there is always a possibility of something happening.

    Shoulder holsters are not typically designed as open carry rigs. They can certainly be used that way, but they are designed to fill a special set of carry needs, where safety is compromised to some extent to obtain a specific goal that is worth the compromise.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    BobCav wrote:
    REMEMBER: YOU CANNOT CHANGE ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.

    Knowing that,do NOT go there thinking that you will convert even a single one. that will be your undoing. Just be respectful, knowledgeable, cool-headed and polite. You will completely rock their stereotype and THAT is what will plant the seeds of change in them.

    Remember, the best way to disarm ANYONE is with a smile!
    Bob - I think this is really what this site started out as. A forum for us that OC everyday and the encounters we have. To help use track where and when we could and develop encounter strategies.

    My wife has told me that your friends are asking about using guns for protection now. One of the reason is: "Every time we see your husband outside of school, he is carry a gun. At first it scared us, but now we see how someone responsible could make a difference if they had a gun too."

    Setting good example and showing that it is just another tool you use to protect your family goes a long way. Too many people focus on the gun. I lock my doors and windows in the house, make sure everyone is buckled. Keep the kids in eyesight at stores; don't let them play in the roads. Medications and cleaning solutions (I have even switch to a different cleaner that is works and is basically child/environment safe) are out of reach. I'm very active in the "Green" front. That is a short list of what I do, but everyone focuses on the gun.

    Carrying is just logical to me. It gives me a way to deal with an attack on my family or me. I don't see it as a sign of power, I do see it has a sign of freedom, but that is another conversation all together.

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    UPDATE:

    1. I just called the Million Mom March of Northern Virginia's POC Terry Hartnett - Terry said no MMM personnel weremean to anyobdy or ordered filming to stop "that she knew of."

    2. The Fairfax County Public Library's Marketing & PR Managertold me filming of meetings may not be prohibited by groups holding public meetings (see below). I told the manager that it has been reported that the MMM people banned filming recently.

    Anyway, if anybody goes to the next meeting, please be extra respectful as you film away, as the MMM may be filming you too And whether it's true or not as a general rule, rabid anti-gunners tend to be a little on edge and unfriendly to everybody, so show up relaxed and happy

    Their next meeting is reportedly at: Monday, June 4, at 7 p.m. at Centreville Regional Library
    14200 St. Germain Dr.
    Centreville, VA 20121-2299


    ---------------------------

    Mr. Stollenwerk,

    Thank you for your note below. To answer your question, you may not
    prohibit the filming of your meeting in the library's meeting room. If
    you've reserved one of our meeting rooms, please advise as to the date
    and time.

    Thanks again!


    Lois Kirkpatrick
    Marketing & PR Manager
    Fairfax County Public Library

    703-324-8319
    www.fairfaxcounty.gov/library


    -----Original Message-----
    From: XXXXXXXXX

    Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:46 PM
    To: WWWLIB
    Subject: Filming public meetings at library room - Library, Fairfax
    County Public - Administration Website Contact

    Name: Mike Stollenwerk
    Telephone #: 703-XXX-XXXX

    Email Address: XXXXXXXXX

    Comment: If i reserve a meeting room and hold a meeting, I know it must
    be open to the public. But if somebody comes to the meeting, and they
    want to film the meeting, can I stop them? or, is this like the VA FOIA
    which protects right to record meetings?


  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Good memory and notes, Naked.

    Ricker said he owns "assault rifles" - plural. I, too, wanted to ask him what kind, but didn't get the opportunity.

    Ricker also said if he didn't think he'd be safe, like at the Burke library, he wouldn't go. I wanted to ask if he'd ever been to Virginia Tech, but decided discretion was the better part of valor on that point. I though about asking if he only wore a seatbelt when he expected an accident, or only carried a spare when he thought he'd have a flat, but by then it was obvious we weren't going to be allowed to speak.

    Not even if we raised our hands and waited.

    At the next one I will CC; I will take good notes even though I know someone is filming; and I will prepare a couple of similar questions, being very careful how I word them.

    Speaking of the next one..... I work in Fairfax and won't be out until 5:30-5:45, so I'm not going home first. Anyone know of a meet-up place before the meeting?
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    possumboy wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    REMEMBER: YOU CANNOT CHANGE ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.

    Knowing that,*do NOT go there thinking that you will convert even a single one.* that will be your undoing.* Just be respectful, knowledgeable, cool-headed and polite.* You will completely rock their stereotype and THAT is what will plant the seeds of change in them.

    Remember, the best way to disarm ANYONE is with a smile!*
    Bob - I think this is really what this site started out as.* A forum for us that OC everyday and the encounters we have.* To help use track where and when we could and develop encounter strategies.

    My wife has told me that your friends are asking about using guns for protection now.* One of the reason is:* "Every time we see your husband outside of school, he is carry a gun.* At first it scared us, but now we see how someone responsible could make a difference if they had a gun too."

    Setting good example and showing that it is just another tool you use to protect your family goes a long way.* Too many people focus on the gun.* I lock my doors and windows in the house, make sure everyone is buckled.* Keep the kids in eyesight at stores; don't let them play in the roads.* Medications and cleaning solutions (I have even switch to a different cleaner that is works and is basically child/environment safe) are out of reach.* I'm very active in the "Green" front.** That is a short list of what I do, but everyone focuses on the gun.

    Carrying is just logical to me.* It gives me a way to deal with an attack on my family or me.* I don't see it as a sign of power, I do see it has a sign of freedom, but that is another conversation all together.
    What you are saying makes a lot of sense. But that is the moderate **** sapiens sapiens view. I think when the concept is taken to extremes is where the problem comes in.

    In the instant case, we all know where the MMM weighs in on firearms rights. Set aside the fact that the venue and the open meeting made carry legal for just a moment.

    If you look at all this from their point of view, the VCDL presence at their meeting was excessive and it was frightening. From what I have read, if the armed citizens did not outnumber them, it was close. So how would they see such a presence of armed strangers that virtually took over their meeting, and certainly had an impact on the evenings agenda?

    Now I know I will hear all about how open VCDL would have been if the situation were reversed. But suppose 25 off duty BATFE agents showed up at a normal VCDL meeting wearing guns and BATF hats, filed into the room and said nothing about why they were there? Suppose they started milling around with cameras taking pictures of people and close-ups of the firearms. Gee, do you think this forum would have remained quiet that night?

    Many here say repeatedly that any fear others have, or any angst they may feel toward a person carrying is their problem. I would agree with that view if three or four armed citizens just happened to show up at a MMM meeting. Or someone is just going about their normal daily routine. But that is not what happened here. Clearly some people went there with the specific intent of "getting in their face" on the gun issue. The meeting was political because that is what the MMM is about, and the attendance by armed citizens had a political, not a routine informational purpose. It would be amazing to me if most here did not know very well what the reaction would be.

    Without putting words in his mouth, I think the point BobCav was trying to make is that you are NOT going to convert a person who cannot hear your message, either through blind ignorance or fear and anger. Clearly, many at that meeting were not ready to hear the message, and any that were would have been inhibited by peer pressure at the actual meeting.

    Now it goes without saying that the chair of that meeting was simply rabid, and their is nothing anyone can do about that. It is as much about power for her as it is anything else. But many of the others could be encouraged to talk in the hall or one on one before or after the meeting, and THAT is where the seed of the message can be planted. But NONE of them was going to have an epiphany on firearms rights right then and there, when confronted with an overwhelming presence.

    I infrequently see comments on the forum that things were better a year ago when everything was about I carried here or I carried there. Well, perhaps that is true for some. But frankly that makes for very boring conversation. Self defense is about life, but there is more to life that carrying a firearm to the 7-11. Life is a loud, diverse, clamoring, wonderful mix of everything. life is also about change because things grow, and if this forum is to live and grow it will have to accept some new ideas and the change that they bring.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    possumboy wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    REMEMBER: YOU CANNOT CHANGE ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.

    Knowing that,do NOT go there thinking that you will convert even a single one. that will be your undoing. Just be respectful, knowledgeable, cool-headed and polite. You will completely rock their stereotype and THAT is what will plant the seeds of change in them.

    Remember, the best way to disarm ANYONE is with a smile!
    Bob - I think this is really what this site started out as. A forum for us that OC everyday and the encounters we have. To help use track where and when we could and develop encounter strategies.

    My wife has told me that your friends are asking about using guns for protection now. One of the reason is: "Every time we see your husband outside of school, he is carry a gun. At first it scared us, but now we see how someone responsible could make a difference if they had a gun too."

    Setting good example and showing that it is just another tool you use to protect your family goes a long way. Too many people focus on the gun. I lock my doors and windows in the house, make sure everyone is buckled. Keep the kids in eyesight at stores; don't let them play in the roads. Medications and cleaning solutions (I have even switch to a different cleaner that is works and is basically child/environment safe) are out of reach. I'm very active in the "Green" front. That is a short list of what I do, but everyone focuses on the gun.

    Carrying is just logical to me. It gives me a way to deal with an attack on my family or me. I don't see it as a sign of power, I do see it has a sign of freedom, but that is another conversation all together.
    What you are saying makes a lot of sense. But that is the moderate **** sapiens sapiens view. I think when the concept is taken to extremes is where the problem comes in.

    In the instant case, we all know where the MMM weighs in on firearms rights. Set aside the fact that the venue and the open meeting made carry legal for just a moment.
    Agreed, I guess I should have added that we need to OC more in everyday where these people can see us and either learn to accept it, or decide that we might not be that bad after all.

    Read a lot handout, websites, and quotes, BB/MMM try to make us seem like dievants against society. I often get a picture of my family from the hills of Southwestern VA - no offense Mr. Pierce, but you are near the big city of Bristol. These are the people that wear the same clothes for days, have the Rebel flags on their trucks, and yes, sometimes go around without shoes because they ain't workin' and see no need fo' it.

    Everyday OC normallizes the experience for everyone involved. If these MMM folks saw someone OC everyday, they would not be on such an edge. If they realized how many people actually carry concealed and open in VA, and the lack of "blood baths and Wild West Shootouts" some may start to understand.

    I don't believe many of those will ever start carrying or be in support of less gun-control, but it will help keep us from having police called on us for dinner. Maybe we would not have to know so much about detainment and arrest. I don't think I would want to know less, but it would be nice to walk out of Wal-Mart, see a LEO, and not be thinking of what I did - because it is always about me.

    I'm not trying to convert, I have no plans on conversion. I just want to be allowed to do what I'm willing to do, to protect my family. If they are not ready to add another tool, fine, just let me keep my gun, in my toolbox.

    Also, I have been at the libraries during MMM meetings before. I was there with my kids and just never chose to say or do anything involving them. All I tell my children is that thier meeting is what is so great about this country. People fought and won the right. That is why we send letters to the soldiers and marines in the Middle East, and that is why you say thank you to veterns. Because no matter how much they disagree with you, you can still say what you want, and they can say what they want.

    The sad thing is, your trying to teach you kids something that you feel is important, and they just say "OK, Dad" and run off to the next shiney object.

  22. #22
    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    UPDATE:

    1. I just called the Million Mom March of Northern Virginia's POC Terry Hartnett - Terry said no MMM personnel weremean to anyobdy or ordered filming to stop "that she knew of."
    That's all semantics Mike. True, she never ordered it to STOP because they never let it START.


  23. #23
    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    I went to the MMM website and they have this link http://www.kidsandguns.org/study/sta...North+Carolina

    Which shows that gun deaths among juveniles has gone down signinficantly. Guess they didn't know it shows that.

    You know something funny? I was in DC the day they stormed Washington in 2000. I didn't even know what was going on because I was just visiting friends. The moment I walked by the stage, I saw Rosie O'donnell in all 300lbs of her glory and asked the folks near me what this was about. They said, "it's the MMM. We're here to protest guns" period. No strong motive, nothingmore significant. Just here to protest guns. Iwalked around the crowd and kept asking people the same question and got several different answers, but the one I got the most was, "we're here to see Rosie." I found it funny that she was escorted off stage by what seemed to be bodyguards. I have always wondered if, in the spirit of this protest against guns, Rosies guards were armed with not but their wit and wangs. You think?

    BTW, I can't seem to find any meetings here in the Charlotte area. If anyone knows more about this, please let me know as I am getting tired of you Virginia boys (and gals) having all the fun. Don't make me use the bannana!

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    If you look at all this from their point of view, the VCDL presence at their meeting was excessive and it was frightening. From what I have read, if the armed citizens did not outnumber them, it was close. So how would they see such a presence of armed strangers that virtually took over their meeting, and certainly had an impact on the evenings agenda?

    Now I know I will hear all about how open VCDL would have been if the situation were reversed. But suppose 25 off duty BATFE agents showed up at a normal VCDL meeting wearing guns and BATF hats, filed into the room and said nothing about why they were there? Suppose they started milling around with cameras taking pictures of people and close-ups of the firearms. Gee, do you think this forum would have remained quiet that night?

    Many here say repeatedly that any fear others have, or any angst they may feel toward a person carrying is their problem. I would agree with that view if three or four armed citizens just happened to show up at a MMM meeting. Or someone is just going about their normal daily routine. But that is not what happened here. Clearly some people went there with the specific intent of "getting in their face" on the gun issue. The meeting was political because that is what the MMM is about, and the attendance by armed citizens had a political, not a routine informational purpose. It would be amazing to me if most here did not know very well what the reaction would be.

    Without putting words in his mouth, I think the point BobCav was trying to make is that you are NOT going to convert a person who cannot hear your message, either through blind ignorance or fear and anger. Clearly, many at that meeting were not ready to hear the message, and any that were would have been inhibited by peer pressure at the actual meeting.
    I agree with this very point of view. Which is why I decided after reading the reports of the MMM meeting this week that when I walk into the meeting on 6/4, I will be unarmed. Because I have no intentions of appearing to take over the meeting. In fact, one positive thing I have going for me is that I have only been to a few VCDL and OCDO events. So, my face is relatively unknown, except to a few people. This way, I can go to the meeting and just "blend in".

    My intention in going to this meeting is not to appear hostile or put it in their face. That wouldn't accomplish anything. My intention, is to learn what they're saying. Learn what this speaker has to say. The best way to counter an argument is to know the argument first. If I show up armed or wearing pro-gun attire, it's going to set a negative mood.

    I think it would be far more effective if the entire group showed up unarmed and just blend in and disperse throughout the room. The organization would not immediately go on the defensive. People would be permitted to speak and help to dispell some of the lies or half-truths in a peaceful manner. Of course, it's not effective to do it with brute force because then the speaker and organizers will immediately go on the defensive. Once they're in a defensive mode, all efforts are moot.

    So, enough about that...on another topic. I think the MMM group felt that VCDL was attacking them. The fact is this was not a VCDL sanctioned get together. It just so happened that several of the pro-rights citizens that showed up happened to be VCDL members. It didn't help that the audience was asked who the VCDL members were. I think this was an inappropriate question, given the scenerio and circumstances. It didn't matter who in the audience were VCDL members.

  25. #25
    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
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    http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/mmm/

    This is excellent, for those of you who like to arm yourselves with knowledge.

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