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Thread: State Capitol Ban

  1. #1
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    What is the authority for the state capitol ban on firearms?

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...AL19/705230451
    Alabama, for instance, bars weapons only when the Legislature is in session, Warnock said. And California, while banning guns, allows people with concealed-carry licenses to bring weapons into the building. In Indiana, even visitors licensed to carry guns will be refused entry unless they leave their weapons in the car or take them home.

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    Although maybe not lawfully, the back of my pistol license says......

    #1 This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.
    #2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only.
    #3 Your pistol permit is void if you are arrested, on any charge.
    #4 Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry a pistol in any place that serves alcohol or while you are drinking
    or using any illegal drug.
    #5 Your pistol permit is also void in any air terminal or in any Court House or other public building whether City, County, State or Federal.
    #6 If you carry a pistol under any of the above conditions where it is void, you will be subject to ARREST for carrying a concealed weapon.

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    Comp-tech wrote:
    Although maybe not lawfully, the back of my pistol license says......

    #1 This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.
    #2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only.
    #3 Your pistol permit is void if you are arrested, on any charge.
    #4 Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry a pistol in any place that serves alcohol or while you are drinking
    or using any illegal drug.
    #5 Your pistol permit is also void in any air terminal or in any Court House or other public building whether City, County, State or Federal.
    #6 If you carry a pistol under any of the above conditions where it is void, you will be subject to ARREST for carrying a concealed weapon.
    Although maybe not lawfully, the back of my pistol license says......

    #1 This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.

    We proved this one wrong
    #2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only.

    not true
    #3 Your pistol permit is void if you are arrested, on any charge.

    any charge? even traffic violations? I don't think so.
    #4 Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry a pistol in any place that serves alcohol or while you are drinking
    or using any illegal drug.

    only if you are drinking
    #5 Your pistol permit is also void in any air terminal or in any Court House or other public building whether City, County, State or Federal.
    #6 If you carry a pistol under any of the above conditions where it is void, you will be subject to ARREST for carrying a concealed weapon.

    Unsure of this one

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    This is part of the problem with the may issue system here in Alabama. The sheriff may issue you a permit and they can revoke it for any reason they feel is justified.There is an AG opinion stating they can't arbitrarily refuse to issue a permit for no reason and a case sited but I don't have the text of the case.

    Sheriffs may also put restrictions on your permit as to where you can carry or what you can carry, a qualified license as opposed to an unlimited license. Obviously I think the open carry line is unconstitutional but that doesn't mean it wont cost you a fortune in legal fees to get a permit back if it is pulled for open carry. As far as the other restrictions there is nothing in the recent preemption law that removes this power from the sheriff. What the actual legal ramifications would be if you violate one of these restrictions is unclear other than a good reason to pull your permit and refuse to ever issue you one again.

    I would love to see the law changed to a shall issue system out of the local sheriffs control but I am afraid that other restrictions would be tacked on to it.

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Comp-tech wrote:
    Although maybe not lawfully, the back of my pistol license says......

    #1 This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.
    #2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only.
    #3 Your pistol permit is void if you are arrested, on any charge.
    #4 Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry a pistol in any place that serves alcohol or while you are drinking
    or using any illegal drug.
    #5 Your pistol permit is also void in any air terminal or in any Court House or other public building whether City, County, State or Federal.
    #6 If you carry a pistol under any of the above conditions where it is void, you will be subject to ARREST for carrying a concealed weapon.
    #1 is technically correct. The pistol permit can't permit you to carry openly, it also can't restrict you from doing so. See the State Constitution.

    #2 is interesting. Can a county sheriff's restriction override reciprocity?

    #3&4 are pretty reasonable, IMHO, regardless of the legality.

    #5 So you can't CC in those locations. Theoretically you can still OC in most of them.

    #6 is a 'duh' that they feel they have to put on there.

    As far as I know the restrictions vary from county to county.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    #2. Sheriffs should not be able to override reciprocity. Reciprocity is established by State law, and preemption stops localities from changing it.

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    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.

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    REB wrote:
    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.
    Even if you consider the sheriff to be a State official, he is still not the legislature. He cannot change state law at his whim.

    His office is defined by the State Constitution, as is the method of his election. However, he still is a county official, elected by the voters in his county and exercising jurisdiction in his county. Any changes he attempts to make would be necessarily local and a violation of preemption.

    So, either way you look at it, the sheriff may not change State law.
    __________________________

    On another front, my CPL used to have language on the back, limiting the license. It's gone now. It may be a recognition that preemption made most of that language illegal. Or, it may be the realization that the law changes faster than new permits can be printed. Either way, there are no restrictions on the back of my permit, so I am restricted only as State law permits.

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    I always love #6. I will be charged with carrying concealed if I am caught OC'ing.

    Can you just hear the laughter of the jury as they prosecutor explains that OC is
    not illegal, but because you can see the gun the bad guy there is concealing illegally.
    OMG!, just look at him doing it now while sitting peacefully in the defendants chair,
    this cannot be tolerated in a civil society.

    But given the permit to OC, and church bans, gathering bans, and training
    requirements in surrounding states. While not a gold star we aren't as bad off as
    some others. Could be much worse, at least you can move out of Tuscaloosa.

    As for #3, My arrest for not wearing a seat belt didn't hurt mine.

    To let the likes of me run around armed is so criminal. There otta be a law!!

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    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    I always love #6. I will be charged with carrying concealed if I am caught OC'ing.

    Can you just hear the laughter of the jury as they prosecutor explains that OC is
    not illegal, but because you can see the gun the bad guy there is concealing illegally.
    OMG!, just look at him doing it now while sitting peacefully in the defendants chair,
    this cannot be tolerated in a civil society.

    But given the permit to OC, and church bans, gathering bans, and training
    requirements in surrounding states. While not a gold star we aren't as bad off as
    some others. Could be much worse, at least you can move out of Tuscaloosa.

    As for #3, My arrest for not wearing a seat belt didn't hurt mine.

    To let the likes of me run around armed is so criminal. There otta be a law!!
    How did you get arrested for not wearing a seat belt? Maybe if it was the 3rd or 4th time within so long, but really? A seat belt? I wonder what would happen if I jay-walked across the street in Birmingham while OCing.... jail?

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    Regular Member Hollowpoint38's Avatar
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    This is not a place for you to sell dvd's! Stop wasting space.

    MODERATOR!!!!

    PLEASE DELETE!






    -- Done--

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    Comp-tech wrote:
    Although maybe not lawfully, the back of my pistol license says......

    #1 This pistol permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.
    #2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only.
    #3 Your pistol permit is void if you are arrested, on any charge.
    #4 Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry a pistol in any place that serves alcohol or while you are drinking
    or using any illegal drug.
    #5 Your pistol permit is also void in any air terminal or in any Court House or other public building whether City, County, State or Federal.
    #6 If you carry a pistol under any of the above conditions where it is void, you will be subject to ARREST for carrying a concealed weapon.

    What county issued this?
    It takes a village to raise an idiot.

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    eye95 wrote:
    REB wrote:
    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.
    Even if you consider the sheriff to be a State official, he is still not the legislature. He cannot change state law at his whim.

    His office is defined by the State Constitution, as is the method of his election. However, he still is a county official, elected by the voters in his county and exercising jurisdiction in his county. Any changes he attempts to make would be necessarily local and a violation of preemption.

    So, either way you look at it, the sheriff may not change State law.

    The sheriff is not changing state law. State law allows the sheriff to issue an unlimited or qualified license. A qualified license means they can put restrictions on where and what you can carry.

    Section 13A-11-75 The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person

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    eye95 wrote:
    #2. Sheriffs should not be able to override reciprocity. Reciprocity is established by State law, and preemption stops localities from changing it.
    This example alone is a great talking point to get the legislature to preempt the Sherrif's power torestrict use of the carry permit.

    is anyone or group working this issue in Alabama?

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    REB wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    REB wrote:
    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.
    Even if you consider the sheriff to be a State official, he is still not the legislature. He cannot change state law at his whim.

    His office is defined by the State Constitution, as is the method of his election. However, he still is a county official, elected by the voters in his county and exercising jurisdiction in his county. Any changes he attempts to make would be necessarily local and a violation of preemption.

    So, either way you look at it, the sheriff may not change State law.

    The sheriff is not changing state law. State law allows the sheriff to issue an unlimited or qualified license. A qualified license means they can put restrictions on where and what you can carry.

    Section 13A-11-75 The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person
    Under what legal theory do you claim that the qualifications can violate preemption? There are many qualifications that would not put the license in opposition to state law. I would argue that such qualifications would be within the Sheriff's scope. Qualifications that change the effect of State law would violate preemption and would be beyond the power of the sheriff to impose.

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    Ladies and Gentlemen, nothing is going to change unless we see to it that it gets changed. We have to act together for our sakes and that of our families. If we need changes to the gun laws, we have to see that it gets done. We can't sit around and expect someone else to fight the battle.

    We need an pro-gun organization working for the rights of Alabama citizens to clean up our vague OC laws, promote the RKBA in Alabama, fix our CCW problems to make Alabama a "shall issue" instead of "may issue" state and to identify the anti-gun legislators at every level of local and state government.

    They need to have a co-ordinated effort with other pro-gun, pro-carry, pro-CCW, pro-huntingorganizations around the state and the the US. But, the most important role would be to tackle what goes on in Montgomery that affects all Alabama residents. From what I can see right now, we have a few groups trying to set this up, but no defined leadership. These groups seem to circling the fringes trying to find supporters.

    We need a centralized group, backed by the true supporters of legal gun owners, who want and demand true leadership in the gun rights arena. Let's stop blaming the LEO's and the politicians and get some work done.
    Check out my home page @ www.alabamaopencarry.com and Carry On!

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    eye95 wrote:
    REB wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    REB wrote:
    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.
    Even if you consider the sheriff to be a State official, he is still not the legislature. He cannot change state law at his whim.

    His office is defined by the State Constitution, as is the method of his election. However, he still is a county official, elected by the voters in his county and exercising jurisdiction in his county. Any changes he attempts to make would be necessarily local and a violation of preemption.

    So, either way you look at it, the sheriff may not change State law.

    The sheriff is not changing state law. State law allows the sheriff to issue an unlimited or qualified license. A qualified license means they can put restrictions on where and what you can carry.

    Section 13A-11-75 The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person
    Under what legal theory do you claim that the qualifications can violate preemption? There are many qualifications that would not put the license in opposition to state law. I would argue that such qualifications would be within the Sheriff's scope. Qualifications that change the effect of State law would violate preemption and would be beyond the power of the sheriff to impose.
    Take a look at AG opinion 81-00044. although this opinion was issued before the current preemption law was passedit clearly spells out that a qualified license can limit where and whatcan be carried concealed.AG opinion 2000-154 deals with how the cost of a pistol permit is set but the important part clearly states that because the sheriff is constitutional officer of the state that the preemption law does not apply. This does not give the sheriff power to arbitrary makelaws on where you can carry a pistolbut it does not strip their authority to issue a qualified permit as stated in the first opinion and put restrictions on where and what you can carry concealed.

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    REB wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    REB wrote:
    eye95 wrote:
    REB wrote:
    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.
    Even if you consider the sheriff to be a State official, he is still not the legislature. He cannot change state law at his whim.

    His office is defined by the State Constitution, as is the method of his election. However, he still is a county official, elected by the voters in his county and exercising jurisdiction in his county. Any changes he attempts to make would be necessarily local and a violation of preemption.

    So, either way you look at it, the sheriff may not change State law.

    The sheriff is not changing state law. State law allows the sheriff to issue an unlimited or qualified license. A qualified license means they can put restrictions on where and what you can carry.

    Section 13A-11-75 The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person
    Under what legal theory do you claim that the qualifications can violate preemption? There are many qualifications that would not put the license in opposition to state law. I would argue that such qualifications would be within the Sheriff's scope. Qualifications that change the effect of State law would violate preemption and would be beyond the power of the sheriff to impose.
    Take a look at AG opinion 81-00044. although this opinion was issued before the current preemption law was passedit clearly spells out that a qualified license can limit where and whatcan be carried concealed.AG opinion 2000-154 deals with how the cost of a pistol permit is set but the important part clearly states that because the sheriff is constitutional officer of the state that the preemption law does not apply. This does not give the sheriff power to arbitrary makelaws on where you can carry a pistolbut it does not strip their authority to issue a qualified permit as stated in the first opinion and put restrictions on where and what you can carry concealed.
    If the AG opinion predates preemption, it is useless to make an evaluation whether a qualification would violate preemption.

    Do you have another legal theory for why a sheriff's qualifications can take precedence over preemption?

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    REB wrote:
    I think the line "2 Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only." is a leftover from before reciprocity with other states.

    One interesting side note to preemption is in Alabama the sheriff is considered a constitutional officer of the state not a county official.
    Even if you consider the sheriff to be a State official, he is still not the legislature. He cannot change state law at his whim.

    His office is defined by the State Constitution, as is the method of his election. However, he still is a county official, elected by the voters in his county and exercising jurisdiction in his county. Any changes he attempts to make would be necessarily local and a violation of preemption.

    So, either way you look at it, the sheriff may not change State law.

    The sheriff is not changing state law. State law allows the sheriff to issue an unlimited or qualified license. A qualified license means they can put restrictions on where and what you can carry.

    Section 13A-11-75 The sheriff of a county, upon the application of any person residing in that county, may issue a qualified or unlimited license to such person to carry a pistol in a vehicle or concealed on or about his person
    Under what legal theory do you claim that the qualifications can violate preemption? There are many qualifications that would not put the license in opposition to state law. I would argue that such qualifications would be within the Sheriff's scope. Qualifications that change the effect of State law would violate preemption and would be beyond the power of the sheriff to impose.
    Take a look at AG opinion 81-00044. although this opinion was issued before the current preemption law was passedit clearly spells out that a qualified license can limit where and whatcan be carried concealed.AG opinion 2000-154 deals with how the cost of a pistol permit is set but the important part clearly states that because the sheriff is constitutional officer of the state that the preemption law does not apply. This does not give the sheriff power to arbitrary makelaws on where you can carry a pistolbut it does not strip their authority to issue a qualified permit as stated in the first opinion and put restrictions on where and what you can carry concealed.
    If the AG opinion predates preemption, it is useless to make an evaluation whether a qualification would violate preemption.

    Do you have another legal theory for why a sheriff's qualifications can take precedence over preemption?
    Apparently I didn't make my self clear.

    The first opinion deals with the fact that a qualified license can include where and what you can carry. It does predate preemption.

    The second second opinion, issued after the preemption law, states that the sheriff is not included in the preemption law because he is an officer of the state. If preemption applied to the sheriffs he could not set the price of the permit.

    "It has long been recognized that the sheriffs of the state are constitutional officers of the state, not county officials.
    See Parker v. Amerson, 519 So. 2d 442 (Ala. 1987); A.G. Opinion No. 97-00163 to Honorable Jim Woodward, Jefferson County Sheriff, dated April 11, 1997. As such, the sheriff's attempt to set the pistol licensing fee in Baldwin County is not an "ordinance, resolution, or other enactment" of a "county or municipal corporation, instrumentality, or political subdivision thereof."

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    Interesting. The Governor is an officer of the State. Can he, single-handedly, change where we may or may not carry a firearm?

    I don't think so. Neither can a sheriff.

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    No because the law does not give the Governor the authority to issue you a qualified permit. The law does give the sheriff this authority.

    I should make it clear that this strictly applies to where you can carry concealed under your qualified permit. Nothing in the law gives the sheriff the power to regulate open carry.

    As I stated before in this thread the restriction of no open carry would not stand up in court but most of the other restrictions probably would.

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    Outright banning CC in some locations by the sheriff is not a "qualification." It is a change in the law.

    If the sheriff, after consideration of an individual case put a restriction on one particular license, that would be a qualification. But, arbitrarily telling every permit holder that they cannot carry in a McDonald's, for example, would be legislating from the sheriff's office.

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    That is your opinion, unfortunately the AG has a different opinion.

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    What is the AG's opinion in the matter of a place like McDonald's? My understanding is that law enforcement can't keep you out, but if McDonald's asks you to leave or puts a sign on the door saying "no weapons allowed" then the OC citizen must leave the premises.
    Check out my home page @ www.alabamaopencarry.com and Carry On!

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    If you are asked to leave by someone with the authority to do so (usually a manager) you must leave or be guilty of trespassing. In Alabama, for now at least, signs do not carry the force of law. Even if it is posted "No guns allowed" you are still not trespassing unless specifically asked to leave.

    Other than that, all AG opinions I have seen support open carry.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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