Gray Peterson
Founder's Club Member - Moderator
imported post
I would call the lady in the voicemail.
I would call the lady in the voicemail.
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Walmart on Battlefield " Kicked out"
- Thread starter cdunlop
- Start date
PackininVB
Regular Member
imported post
Ok so i was reading the post that Mercutio wrote on that other topic. and he said:
He said yes, then asked why. I said because I can. He then requested that I show him my ID. I asked "what if I don't have any ID?". He then said that I was "resisting". I said "Are you detaining me officer or am I free to go?" He then said that he was detaining me and he made me put my hands against a stack of basketball hoops. He then disarmed me. (if i was resisting arrest, I wouldn't have let him disarm me).
Does ANYone know from a legal standpoint if;
1. A cop can detain you for not showing your ID
and
2. A cop can disarm you without your permission.
Is there anything you can do in that situation? Can you tell him no and walk away? I would think that unless he SAW you committing a crime or about to commit a crime or had just finished committing a crime that he would have no reason or legal ability to make a "terry" stop on someone.
I think that we could really use a lawyers voice in this and not just a IANAL response. Can anyone find any codes or get a number for a lawyer who could answer this?
If this happened to me i would want to walk away and i would Definately not want him disarming me in a store with a bunch of people. what if every cop came up to someone who looked fishy and made them put their hands on the basketball hoops rack and spread them?
How can a cop stop and question us for carrying but not someone else because of their race, or sexual preference or clothing choice? How are we as legal carriers and guardians of our own lives not fall into one of those groups? It just feels like civil rights are being violated here too.
Ok so i was reading the post that Mercutio wrote on that other topic. and he said:
He said yes, then asked why. I said because I can. He then requested that I show him my ID. I asked "what if I don't have any ID?". He then said that I was "resisting". I said "Are you detaining me officer or am I free to go?" He then said that he was detaining me and he made me put my hands against a stack of basketball hoops. He then disarmed me. (if i was resisting arrest, I wouldn't have let him disarm me).
Does ANYone know from a legal standpoint if;
1. A cop can detain you for not showing your ID
and
2. A cop can disarm you without your permission.
Is there anything you can do in that situation? Can you tell him no and walk away? I would think that unless he SAW you committing a crime or about to commit a crime or had just finished committing a crime that he would have no reason or legal ability to make a "terry" stop on someone.
I think that we could really use a lawyers voice in this and not just a IANAL response. Can anyone find any codes or get a number for a lawyer who could answer this?
If this happened to me i would want to walk away and i would Definately not want him disarming me in a store with a bunch of people. what if every cop came up to someone who looked fishy and made them put their hands on the basketball hoops rack and spread them?
How can a cop stop and question us for carrying but not someone else because of their race, or sexual preference or clothing choice? How are we as legal carriers and guardians of our own lives not fall into one of those groups? It just feels like civil rights are being violated here too.
Gray Peterson
Founder's Club Member - Moderator
imported post
In regards to the constant issues in Virginia, I have called Susan in the market office at the phone number left. I will be giving detailed information to her hopefully next week, and we can get this entire situation straightened out.
In regards to the constant issues in Virginia, I have called Susan in the market office at the phone number left. I will be giving detailed information to her hopefully next week, and we can get this entire situation straightened out.
vrwmiller
Regular Member
imported post
Hawkflyer wrote:
I knew what your were saying, Hawk :celebrate
Hawkflyer wrote:
I knew what your were saying, Hawk :celebrate
vrwmiller
Regular Member
imported post
Lonnie Wilson wrote:
I can't count how many times I have been into various different Wal*Marts and have never been hassled at any of them. If the pro-gunners force a policy, it is my assumption that they will opt for a strict anti-gun policy.
Lonnie Wilson wrote:
Personally, I am with Hawkflyer on the whole ordeal. I don't care what Wal*Mart's policy is and I don't want them to create a "corporate-wide" policy.
I can't count how many times I have been into various different Wal*Marts and have never been hassled at any of them. If the pro-gunners force a policy, it is my assumption that they will opt for a strict anti-gun policy.
Hawkflyer
Founder's Club Member
imported post
vrwmiller wrote:
They would have no other choice if they make a policy for ALL of the stores nation wide.
Regards
vrwmiller wrote:
+1
They would have no other choice if they make a policy for ALL of the stores nation wide.
Regards
PackininVB
Regular Member
imported post
With regards to what i was talking about showing ID and all...
When i was back in Indiana for a week, i had lunch with my gf and a friend of hers who was a cop. She said that they could detain you if you didnt have any ID on you until they could figure out who you were and she also said that at least in Indiana that if she saw anyone OCing that she would find out what they were doing with a gun. I thought that was pretty interisting...
With regards to what i was talking about showing ID and all...
When i was back in Indiana for a week, i had lunch with my gf and a friend of hers who was a cop. She said that they could detain you if you didnt have any ID on you until they could figure out who you were and she also said that at least in Indiana that if she saw anyone OCing that she would find out what they were doing with a gun. I thought that was pretty interisting...
vrwmiller
Regular Member
imported post
PackininVB wrote:
It is my understanding that LEOs need to have articulable facts/evidence that you committed a crime before they could legally detain you.
PackininVB wrote:
It is my understanding that LEOs need to have articulable facts/evidence that you committed a crime before they could legally detain you.
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
PackininVB wrote:
Lawfully you mean? Yes, and yes, probably, but only in, at least, a valid Terry stop based upon reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot; the stop must be brief and investigatory; if you don't have ID, don't want to talk, or don't want to show ID, that's your business, and you must be released within a short & reasonable time - only pat downs allowed - notdeep searches of wallets etc. -in Terry stops.
See VA AG Opinion 2002-82 at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf, opining that: "a law-enforcement officer conducting a lawful investigative stop may not arrest a suspect for obstruction of justice under § 18.2-460(A), when the suspect refuses to identify himself to the officer."
Mere OC is not grounds for any Terry stop.
What do you do ifyou think your rights have been violated? Make a complaint to the police, contact a lawyer, complain to your elected rep sitting in oversight of that police force, etc.
The more people OC, the less likely anyone will have problems OCing as the kinks in police procedure get worked out.
PackininVB wrote:
Lawfully you mean? Yes, and yes, probably, but only in, at least, a valid Terry stop based upon reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot; the stop must be brief and investigatory; if you don't have ID, don't want to talk, or don't want to show ID, that's your business, and you must be released within a short & reasonable time - only pat downs allowed - notdeep searches of wallets etc. -in Terry stops.
See VA AG Opinion 2002-82 at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf, opining that: "a law-enforcement officer conducting a lawful investigative stop may not arrest a suspect for obstruction of justice under § 18.2-460(A), when the suspect refuses to identify himself to the officer."
Mere OC is not grounds for any Terry stop.
What do you do ifyou think your rights have been violated? Make a complaint to the police, contact a lawyer, complain to your elected rep sitting in oversight of that police force, etc.
The more people OC, the less likely anyone will have problems OCing as the kinks in police procedure get worked out.
PackininVB
Regular Member
imported post
Thats what i thought Mike,
But legally, can you tell an officer something like "If i have done nothing wrong, and i am not being arrested for committing a crime, then i am not going to show my ID and you will not disarm me" ?
Is refusing to be disarmed going to wind anyone up in jail for resisting an officer?
Thats what i thought Mike,
But legally, can you tell an officer something like "If i have done nothing wrong, and i am not being arrested for committing a crime, then i am not going to show my ID and you will not disarm me" ?
Is refusing to be disarmed going to wind anyone up in jail for resisting an officer?
Mike
Site Co-Founder
imported post
PackininVB wrote:
But if you want actual legal advice on the best technique to take to maximise your ability to sue after the encoutner,contact the VA Bar Association and get a referral to talk to an attorney.
PackininVB wrote:
You can say anything you like, and try to walk away, etc. - if you are seized and not free to leave, the officer should soon let you know, in which case you can refuse to consent to searches, remain silent, etc.
But if you want actual legal advice on the best technique to take to maximise your ability to sue after the encoutner,contact the VA Bar Association and get a referral to talk to an attorney.
ParaWarthog
Regular Member
imported post
cdunlop wrote:
I bet your car looks pretty freaking scary, too. That gun scared anti didn't realize that there were probably others CC'ing in the same Walmart. He / She also doesn't realize that there are untold amounts of criminals CC'ing at any place, any time.
cdunlop wrote:
I bet your car looks pretty freaking scary, too. That gun scared anti didn't realize that there were probably others CC'ing in the same Walmart. He / She also doesn't realize that there are untold amounts of criminals CC'ing at any place, any time.
possumboy
Regular Member
imported post
Mike wrote:
At this point, it is best to verbally tell the people (LEO's/Store Employees/Staff) that you are going to remain silentand you want to talk to a lawyer. If they try to open anything, search anything, verbally let them know you do not consent to a search. After that reaffirm you are invoking your rights with the "I'm going to remain silent. I want to talk to a lawyer." Once you have said that, LEOs are supposed to stop questioning you. They can however talk to you and around you. Usually to tell you how bad it is going to look if you don't talk, or how talking will make your case look better.
Just remember, it is important not to tell them anything - their job is to build a case against you, do not give consent for them to search - if they force a search, don't try to stop them, just restate that you do not consent to any search. Anytime you say something after invoking your rights to remain silent; invoke them again using the same statement.
Be polite during the encounter and show respect. Anything you say can be used against you in court. Invoking your rights, cannot be used against you.
Your best bet, like Mike said, is talk to your attorney. If you don't already have one, then you need to find one.
Mike wrote:
A good approach would be to ask if you are free to leave. If they do not directly say no, then try. They may let you go. If they start asking you questions, do not answer anything, just ask again, "Am I freeto go?" If they block your path, or say no, ask why you are being detained - try to remember this exactly.
At this point, it is best to verbally tell the people (LEO's/Store Employees/Staff) that you are going to remain silentand you want to talk to a lawyer. If they try to open anything, search anything, verbally let them know you do not consent to a search. After that reaffirm you are invoking your rights with the "I'm going to remain silent. I want to talk to a lawyer." Once you have said that, LEOs are supposed to stop questioning you. They can however talk to you and around you. Usually to tell you how bad it is going to look if you don't talk, or how talking will make your case look better.
Just remember, it is important not to tell them anything - their job is to build a case against you, do not give consent for them to search - if they force a search, don't try to stop them, just restate that you do not consent to any search. Anytime you say something after invoking your rights to remain silent; invoke them again using the same statement.
Be polite during the encounter and show respect. Anything you say can be used against you in court. Invoking your rights, cannot be used against you.
Your best bet, like Mike said, is talk to your attorney. If you don't already have one, then you need to find one.