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Thread: Class 3 information

  1. #1
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    Can anyone point me out in the correct direction in order to get this started?

    Steps I need to take, forms I need to download and have filled out.



    I question I do have though is when I go to my local Cheif of Police can he just tell me NO because he dose not want a fully auto in his city? I know my back ground isgoingshow 2 driving on asuspened, I don't think that will stop me though. It's been 5+ years since I had them anyhow.



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    First.. Find one and buy it...

    If not local .. find a class III dealer that will accept it for you. Normally costs $200

    The local Class III will do the paperwork for you and you send it in.



    Go to http://www.legalzoom.com and create your own corporation. You can then register it to the corporation and skip the CLEO signature.

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    Regular Member Bulldog1967's Avatar
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    If you want a quicker turnaround and less bureaucratic stuff, look into a Revocable Living Trust as well.

    My form 1 with a trust was approved in 15 days.

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    Bulldog1967 wrote:
    If you want a quicker turnaround and less bureaucratic stuff, look into a Revocable Living Trust as well.

    My form 1 with a trust was approved in 15 days.
    I spotted that as an option.... give us the details..

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Bulldog1967 wrote:
    If you want a quicker turnaround and less bureaucratic stuff, look into a Revocable Living Trust as well.

    My form 1 with a trust was approved in 15 days.
    So I could transfer one into my RLT, just like my house, and the daughter get it without going through probate if I croak? How's that work?
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    As a corporate asset... I get to depreciate the value and write it off in taxes...

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    For those interested in Machine Gun Price Trends..

    http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/subguns.html

    This can help you decide how much you should pay.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bulldog1967's Avatar
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    More info on the Trust route here:

    http://floridashootersnetwork.com/ph...6c240616f37eec

    Firearms Trust FAQs

    What is a trust:

    A Trust is a legal entity and can own both real and personal property in its own name (at least in Florida) and as such is no different than a Corporation holding NFA items. Under the United States Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, Federal Firearms Regulations, Part 179 “Machine Guns, Destructive Devices and Certain Other Firearms”, Section 179.11 specifically defines a Person (i.e. someone who is authorized to purchase NFA) to include Trusts as well as Corporations. If someone does not want to deal with signoff or cant get it, the corporate or trust route is the only answer.

    Does the Trust require separate tax numbers/returns:

    A Revocable Trust does not need a separate tax ID (you use your own SSN) and gains/losses are passed through on the grantor’s taxes and taxed to the grantor

    Can I make changes to my Trust:

    The trustee has the power to amend or revoke the trust or the power to reach the assets at will.

    Will the Trust prevent creditors from reaching my NFA iems:

    A Revocable Trust will not generally provide any more protection of the assets from creditors than a owning them individually. I say generally since the assets are held in the name of the trust and not your individual name so a creditor may have trouble finding them. A smart litigator may be able to find and reach the trust assets or at least the proceeds from their sale. An irrevocable trust may offer some protection in this regard. However, I generally am against using an irrevocable trust (except in certain situations where it is necessary i.e to hold life insurance for purposes of avoiding estate tax) simply because it is irrevocable and in the event of a change in circumstances/law/finances/ etc., you cannot make any changes to the trust or reach the assets (i.e you are screwed). That being said, if you set up a corporation just to hold the NFA items, then there is a very good chance that a good litigation attorney may be able to pierce the corporate veil and reach the assets anyway. I don’t advocate the use of the trust for purposes of asset/liability protection. Many of the asset protection schemes I have run across over the years have seemed less that concrete in their protection and some downright shady. If you are worried about asset protection you might want to consider good insurance. I advocate the Trust simply as an alternative to a corporate vehicle for those who want NFA and can’t get LE signoff or don’t want to bother with it, or who want to save money in the long run.

    You mentioned saving money, can a Trust save money:

    In addition to the set up costs, a Corporation costs $150 per year (the fee for filing the Florida Corporate Annual Report). This fee, which is subject to increase as the state sees fit, must be paid every year to keep the corporation active. This can get expensive in the long run and failure to pay the annual fee will result in the corporation being administratively dissolved. If this happens and the corporation owns NFA items then you have a serious legal problem. Reinstating the dissolved corporation, if possible, would incur a $500.00 filing fee. A Trust has no requirement for annual fees and is not registered with the state, so the savings is a minimum of $150 a year. Here is a good example. I sold a .22 suppressor to a customer for $300.00 He had already set up a corporation (he paid $250.00 to set up the corporation). He has had the suppressor now for 5 years. With the annual fees and set up cost he has paid $1,000.00 and will continue to pay $150 a year as long as he wants to keep the suppressor. A lot of money for a $300 suppressor.

    How about Privacy:

    A Trust is not registered with the Secretary of State like a corporation. The address of a corporation and its officers names and addresses are available on the internet from the State of Florida Division of Corporations. So if you set up a corp to buy an NFA item and use your home address and keep the item at home, conceiveably someone could look up your name and see the address you use for the corp and figure out where the NFA items are kept. Maybe a longshot, but when dealing with NFA, my belief is you can never be too careful.

    What happens to the NFA items in the trust when I die:

    The standard trust I prepare provides for the assets to be liquidated by the successor trustee and the proceeds to be distributed to the beneficiary or beneficiaries as the case may be, that you designate. You can provide for the items to be distributed directly to the beneficiaries at your death as well, but there are other considerations that should be discussed with any attorney before completing the trust documents.

    Are Transfers for Trusts faster or slower than individual or corporate transfers:

    With a transfer to a legal entities (like trusts or corps) there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer of an NFA item so “theoretically” the transfers should go a "little" faster (but I have gotten individual Form 4 transfers sometimes quicker than Form 3s submitted on the same date so who knows what to expect with the ATF)

    Which way should I go:

    Well review the above and make your own decision. If you already have a corporation that you are using for other business and you have no problems with other partners, liability, corporate creditors, etc., then that may be the way to go. If you don't already have a corp, then depending on your situation and the above matters, a Trust may be the way to go.

    An Attorney can Draft one up for anywhere from a few hundread bucks to 1,000's.

    OR

    you can buy Quicken Willmaker 2006 and make one yourself for 50 bucks.

    More info here as well:

    http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a.../669101014/p/1




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    I already have a corporation for my business ventures so I am paying anyway. I like the tax write offs and I got back loads of cash the past few years to make up for the fees I will be charged in the future.

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    The AFT received my package Monday and my check was cashed Wednesday.

    I read someplace that the ATF will not cash your check unless your application has been approved.

    If this is true.... I may get my tax stamped application sometime this week!!


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    I keep some stuff here : www.bighammer.net/mg.html

    driving on a suspended operator's license could only remotely be a hurdle to CLEO signoff, and it *could* be. There was a poster on THR who reported being denied a resident SC permit renewal due to several tickets in a 10 year span. SLED said that indicated a willingness to disregard the law or something along those lines.

    As the previous posters pointed out, the revocable living trust provides you faster response times,fewer hurdles with just a tad more paperwork (the trust itself).

    There is great debate on whether you can use your own resources or an attorney's designed trust. YMMV and I am not endorsing either method.

    If you go the individual trans. route:

    buy item. Get assistance from dealer. Take 2 copies of form 4's, completed AND signed to CLEO in your jurisdiction. They will background check and sign. Get Photod & Printed. Passport quality photos, color & legible prints.

    - Some CLEOs have a questionaire inquiring into storage, etc. The Super Moderator would probalby like me to point out that thiswouldbe a violation of 15.2-915...

    The turnaroundcan be 5 days to 2 months for a cleosignoff. Once back, 2 copies of F4 go to ATF, with prints & photos.Stroke that 200 dollar tax check and wait. Typical early '07 response time is 30 days now.

    If you go the trustroute:

    Buy item; have living trust drawn up, ready to accept "inventory" into the trust. I believe in VA it must be notarized. Stroke 200 tax check.

    Send ATF a copy of your trust, 2 F4's signed by you(trustee of your living trust) & check. Wait.

    The wait time can serve a useful purpose, such as acquiring ammunition, supplies, etc. like a tripod, T&E, links anda place to store several thousand rounds of ammo...

    YMMVof course.

    HTH



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    Leo,

    Once your check is cashed your form goes pending (approval). Provided you haven't done anything disqualifying in the past, and providing that the item's history checks out, you'll be approved. NFATCA is working on an insurance plan for such a contingency.

    A couple of transfers before mine and my C3 had a transfer kicked back because it was contraband. As you probably already know, any C3 item is a big investment and this one was5figures of contraband. Here's the thing; the C3 had transferred this same gun several times to several owners and ATF never previously id'd it ascontraband... That's nodefense, however.

    The current WV crop of examiners are first rate, and a few of whom own title II items themselves . However, they're also very thorough and it is going to show just how incompetent the examiners were in DC...



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    Thanks for the link. Here is my take on the code section....

    You posses aMachine Gunoff property youcontrol while having been convicted of acrime of violence

    And

    Either you failed to register it with the state police or have empty or loaded shells in the immediate area.

    It is a violation not to register it with the state policeanyway....

    So if you have been convicted of a crime of violence... you cannot shoot it off your property. You may transport it as long as there is no live or spent rounds near it.





    § 18.2-290. Use of machine gun for aggressive purpose.

    Unlawful possession or use of a machine gun for an offensive or aggressive purpose is hereby declared to be a Class 4 felony.

    § 18.2-291. What constitutes aggressive purpose.

    Possession or use of a machine gun shall be presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose:

    (1) When the machine gun is on premises not owned or rented for bona fide permanent residence or business occupancy by the person in whose possession the machine gun may be found;

    (2) When the machine gun is in the possession of, or used by, a person who has been convicted of a crime of violence in any court of record, state or federal, of the United States of America, its territories or insular possessions;

    (3) When the machine gun has not been registered as required in § 18.2-295; or

    (4) When empty or loaded shells which have been or are susceptible of use in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity thereof.




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    Mr. Y wrote:
    Leo,

    Once your check is cashed your form goes pending (approval). Provided you haven't done anything disqualifying in the past, and providing that the item's history checks out, you'll be approved. NFATCA is working on an insurance plan for such a contingency.

    A couple of transfers before mine and my C3 had a transfer kicked back because it was contraband. As you probably already know, any C3 item is a big investment and this one was5figures of contraband. Here's the thing; the C3 had transferred this same gun several times to several owners and ATF never previously id'd it ascontraband... That's nodefense, however.

    The current WV crop of examiners are first rate, and a few of whom own title II items themselves . However, they're also very thorough and it is going to show just how incompetent the examiners were in DC...
    Oh, OK.. Good to know.

    I will put the app in the back of my mind. When the approval comes... I will be happily surprised. My C3 is brand new... test fired only. It better not be contraband! It was rather expensive.. but in line with the going price trend.



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    I just sent a former dishwasher to appliance Valahalla Saturday with about 800 rounds and some ... assistance :shock:

    Piece of junk. I had water all over my kitchen floor. When I was done, there was nothing left of that dishwasher but a hollowed out shell,in several pieces.

    Just think how much space that thing would've taken up without me... compacting it... Just doin' my part to help the environment.





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    Nothing wrong with that.....

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    ...SNIP
    § 18.2-291. What constitutes aggressive purpose.

    Possession or use of a machine gun shall be presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose:

    (1) When the machine gun is on premises not owned or rented for bona fide permanent residence or business occupancy by the person in whose possession the machine gun may be found;

    (2) When the machine gun is in the possession of, or used by, a person who has been convicted of a crime of violence in any court of record, state or federal, of the United States of America, its territories or insular possessions;

    (3) When the machine gun has not been registered as required in § 18.2-295; or

    (4) When empty or loaded shells which have been or are susceptible of use in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity thereof.
    I am not a class III owner, so this is all very interesting. I presume an existing revocable or irrevocable trust could also be used so long as nothing in the terms would prevent firearms ownership.

    But this code section you cite bothers me a little. That last condition would imply that if you have any ammo around the weapon that you would be in violation. How would you shoot it without having ammo around? I don't see anything in that code that would not make the ammo presumptive of guilt if you were just enjoying your ownership to the fullest.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Go check out my webpage, quoted above. I centralized the relevant info, but the issue is that you need to read at least a majority of it to fully understand what is illegal actually. There are several statutes, and 4 AG opinions as well as links to understanding the rules of statutory construction - how the courts interpret this stuff.



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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    ...SNIP
    § 18.2-291. What constitutes aggressive purpose.

    Possession or use of a machine gun shall be presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose:

    (1) When the machine gun is on premises not owned or rented for bona fide permanent residence or business occupancy by the person in whose possession the machine gun may be found;

    (2) When the machine gun is in the possession of, or used by, a person who has been convicted of a crime of violence in any court of record, state or federal, of the United States of America, its territories or insular possessions;

    (3) When the machine gun has not been registered as required in § 18.2-295; or

    (4) When empty or loaded shells which have been or are susceptible of use in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity thereof.
    I am not a class III owner, so this is all very interesting. I presume an existing revocable or irrevocable trust could also be used so long as nothing in the terms would prevent firearms ownership.

    But this code section you cite bothers me a little. That last condition would imply that if you have any ammo around the weapon that you would be in violation. How would you shoot it without having ammo around? I don't see anything in that code that would not make the ammo presumptive of guilt if you were just enjoying your ownership to the fullest.

    Regards
    You gotta love how you cannot even have empty shell casings near it!!

  20. #20
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    As I understand it, you can also form an LLC (instead of the trust). The LLC can own the Class III item (MG, Suppressor, or DD). You can identify in the formation of the LLC who are "members" and then write letters from the LLC to each member that they are entitled to own/posess/use the device for any lawful purpose. In this way more than 1 person can have the C3 device in their possession.

    If I own a C3 and the Form 4 is in my name, I can't lend, lease, loan, etc, my C3 device to anybody. If I have an LLC and you and I are both "members" of the LLC, then we can "share" the device.

    Looking at costs, its $100 to the state of Va to create the LLC + $200 to xfer the C3 device to the LLC + $50 annually to the state of Va to maintain the LLC. Or, $200 one-time to you. A plus to the corporate route is: no photo, no fingerprints, no CLEO sign off on approval. If you ever dissolve the LLC, you'd have to spend $200 to xfer it to you.
    (oh.. and I should note that the Va. Gen Assmbly "could" change the yearly maintenance fees. I might cost more than $50 annually to maintain the LLC.)


    You probably already know people that own machine guns, but they don't talk about it. Because you can't. If you own one, you fall into one of two groups. The go to work and brag about your machine gun to everybody group. Or the quiet, nobody knows what I know, type with an MG in the safe, group. Everybody thinks group number one is a bunch of weirdos. Chances are, everybody here is in group two.

    Finally, I'm not a lawyer and this aint legal advice. Someone in another thread said something to the effect: "don't screw up even a little bit with NFA stuff."




  21. #21
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    In this way more than 1 person can have the C3 device in their possession.
    The same applies to those you have designated as trustees of a revokable trust - without the tax liabilities.

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