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Thread: Raleigh PD stance on Open Carry

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    I had a related thread on this subject that had turned into a broader discussion. I felt this email I just received should probably be the start of a NEW thread.

    NC Law does permit "open carry" in non-restricted places and as such, it is permitted within Raleigh. I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee. I will venture a guess that if you do decide to "open carry", as an agency we will receive numerous calls from citizens and you will have quite a bit of interaction with our officers. Captain Hardy
    [/code]

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    I like how he gives an excuse for improper training, or would it be a critique of the learning ability of th officers themselves? :?

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    Whatever the case, I read it to mean that I can do it, I should expect to be harrassed from time to time by the RPD, but ultimately I'm not breaking any laws.

    I'm wondering how the VCDL folks handled this. For those of you that are reading this, did you find it beneficial to go out in groups OC'ing to "condition" to public and police into seeing more OC and recognizing it as not a public threat?

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    I'm not sufficiently versed in the history of VA OC. My guess would be they just up and started doing it individually with occasional social gatherings where attendees also happened to be OC'ing.

    You could experiment at creating a less dangerous environment with regard to police harassment, etc. by looking up some Code and case law and proposing a training bulletin to the sheriff. Once they see things like, "In Smurf vs N. Carolina, the NC Supreme Court held that police cannot Terry stop a citizen solely for possession of a firearm, but must consider all circumstances." they will get the idea you are serious and that you shouldn't be monkeyed with. If you go this route, you'll want to make or discover a list of the arguably sneaky things cops dowhen they stop a person, then hunt up the law in your state. For example, does NC have a law requiring you to tender ID upon LEO demand (outside a driver's license during a traffic stop?) For example, if they know you know you don't have to show ID (if true), it will possibly close off an attempt to harass you by demanding ID. Or, ifthey know you know that without reasonable suspicion a crime was, is, or will be committed they can only consenually interview you, theymay be inclined towait for reasonable suspicion before they even bother you. Dropping some hints that 911 calls are obtainable under the Freedom of Information Act (if they are in NC), would let them know you know how to find out after the factwhether they had reasonable suspicion. Police seem to like checking serial numbers. Discovering some applicable NC 4th Amendment case law related to firearms would be helpful, too.

    It will take some research and time on the internet; but it may be away to educate the police andcreate an OC-friendly environment.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Yonder,

    Seeing that response from the Captain, this thread makes me *real* interested.

    Are you going to accept his (barely hidden) challenge?

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    Yeah it's going to take a lot of work. I'm hoping more North Carolinians will read this and step up their game. I'd like to band together with my neighbors and try to achieve the same sort of victory that Virginians have enjoyed. But I am just one man.

    If anyone here is from GRNC and can tell me if this is something GRNC would be willing to take on, I will help work within that umbrella. If not, I'd still like to pursue this outside of the GRNC umbrella if need be.

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    BB62 wrote:
    Are you going to accept his (barely hidden) challenge?
    Absolutely.

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    GRNC?

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    Sorry, I'm a little slow today. :?

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    I would think a reply to the captain would be in order.
    One that reminded him that if he feels his officers are ill informed to deal with open carry and the possible complaint calls that it is his responsibility to ensure his officers are prepared to deal with it correctly. Remind him that it should be his best interest to do so as any "interaction" with his officers could lead to unlawful search, detention, or arrest if the officers responding are unaware or incorrect in their knowledge or opinion on the law and such happenings could at best lead to lawsuits.

    His hint that interaction will occur, without mention of ensuring his officers are up to speed on the law indicates his opinion is that he woud prefer it that it did happen, which is inappropriate for his position.

    An appropriate version of a training memo, as Lonnie Wilson has drafted for a couple states now would be in order.

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    Do you have a link to this memo?

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    yonder wrote:
    Do you have a link to this memo?
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum46/2845.html

    Keep in mind the above is for PA and will obviously need converted to fit NC code.


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    Yes it will be a lot of work but I think worthwhile. Thank you!

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    Well, I open carry every weekend, only disarming to go into restaurants that serve alcohol or places the charge admission. I purposely avoid places that post no firearms.

    Been doing so for about 3 years now and so far has never been approached by an on-duty officer. Though I have been approached by an off duty and asked what precinct I work for. Once I said that I was not a police officer, he stated that he thought I was after seeing my side arm and said nothing more.

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    yonder wrote:
    For those of you that are reading this, did you find it beneficial to go out in groups OC'ing to "condition" to public and police into seeing more OC and recognizing it as not a public threat?
    Why does the public need "conditioning"? And if it does, why for crying out loud would anyone want to go in "groups" - that looks abnormal as heck - I MIGHT CALL THE POLICE MYSELF!:shock:

    Just go about your daily business OCing and stop worrying about it - nobody is reporting police harassment for OCing in NC, somthing which is constitutionally protected in NC from even requiring a permit.

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    I waswas stopped about 3 years ago, at gunpoint by three police officers.

    The sergeant in chargetold me that if I intended to carry in the jurisdiction where I lived, it might be nice (in an 'evil' way, understand?) tonotify mypolice departmentof my intent to do so - so officers would not have to make unnecessary quick response runs due to calls ofa "man with a gun!!"

    Just something you might want to think about includingin your polite note back to the Captain - you know,the onewhere you thank him for his prompt and complete answer to your query? <<evil grin>>

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    I'm going to play devils advocate here.:P



    The Capt. and his officers have to investigate the calls and/or complaints.

    They do not know before hand if the person with a open carry weapon is or is not a convicted felon or just a innocent citizen practicing OC.

    I'd have to ask the person a few questions and then leave it at that..

    Remember the Law Enforcement Officer wants to go home atthe end of his/her shift and everybody that has a gun is not legal.:shock:



    I strongly support your,mine and everybody elses right to carry legally, but some folks thru their own misdeeds have forfeited that right.

    They are the one's 99% of LE are concerned with.

    Yeah some LE are anti-gun ,but very very few of the uniformed officers are..



    IMHO.


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    kenpofan wrote:
    They do not know before hand if the person with a open carry weapon is or is not a convicted felon or just a innocent citizen practicing OC.

    I'd have to ask the person a few questions and then leave it at that..
    Many sex offenders are barred from loitering around areaswhere children commonly gather, but that does that mean that Henrico Police have the authority to "stop & question" all adults at public parks?

    Of course not, that would be ludicrous..(but, it would be "for the children".. still wouldn't fly).

    I'm "luke warm" on a friendly encounterwith an officer if we just "happen to be in the same place at the same time" and I'm not asked for my ID, but if someone dials 911 in a panic, the police are dispatched, and the police waste my time & insult us.. That's a different matter.

    There are people that go "berzerk" when they see a spider, and that's just not my problem.

    Giving the government power to do ANYTHING is a dangerous thing. The Patriot Act is a wet dream for law enforcement.

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    psmartin wrote:
    kenpofan wrote:
    They do not know before hand if the person with a open carry weapon is or is not a convicted felon or just a innocent citizen practicing OC.

    I'd have to ask the person a few questions and then leave it at that..
    Many sex offenders are barred from loitering around areaswhere children commonly gather, but that does that mean that Henrico Police have the authority to "stop & question" all adults at public parks?

    Of course not, that would be ludicrous..(but, it would be "for the children".. still wouldn't fly).

    I'm "luke warm" on a friendly encounterwith an officer if we just "happen to be in the same place at the same time" and I'm not asked for my ID, but if someone dials 911 in a panic, the police are dispatched, and the police waste my time & insult us.. That's a different matter.

    There are people that go "berzerk" when they see a spider, and that's just not my problem.

    Giving the government power to do ANYTHING is a dangerous thing. The Patriot Act is a wet dream for law enforcement.

    I really don't know what the Patriot Act has to do with my comments..butpublic and officer safety laws/concerns pre-date the afor mentioned act.

    I have had to question males at daycares from time to time and no they don't like it..


    I have to respond to MR and MS public when they call ,and Itruely support the right of law abiding citizens to OC and/or CC.

    I didn't make the rules but I do have to enforce them..if you are a law abiding citizen you need not fear the LE community..yes they do have bad apples..but by and large LEO is your friend.



    Peace.

    KENPOFAN

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    yonder wrote: [quote]
    NC Law does permit "open carry" in non-restricted places and as such, it is permitted within Raleigh. I would hope our officers are well-informed, but since we have over 740 sworn officers, I will not make that guarantee. I will venture a guess that if you do decide to "open carry", as an agency we will receive numerous calls from citizens and you will have quite a bit of interaction with our officers. Captain Hardy
    [code]Maybe Captain Hardy needs to be reminded that ignorance of the law is not excuse. So the 740 sworn officers, need to be informed.

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    kenpofan wrote:
    I'm going to play devils advocate here.:P

    SNIP
    The devil got beat on this one over two centuries ago, starting with the Fourth Amendment, and then all thecase law since then.




    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    kenpofan wrote:
    I'm going to play devils advocate here.:P
    I'll play.

    The Capt. and his officers have to investigate the calls and/or complaints.
    Actually not quite true. The Capt. and his officers have to investigate criminal calls and complaints (actually in most places they don't even have a legal duty to respond to THOSE complaints). The mere act of OC'ing is not a criminal offense, thus no investigation need be performed. The first question a 911 operator needs to ask when they get a call of "There's a MAN WITH A GUN!!", is... "What is he doing with it".

    But let's go with your proposal that they *have* to investigate every call they get. Ok, then the proper investigation would be to quietly and unobtrusivley observe. When they see that the "man with a gun" is just going about his business then investigation over, move on.

    So, even going by your assumption of them having to investigate every call they get, it still doesn't equal a stop and question.
    They do not know before hand if the person with a open carry weapon is or is not a convicted felon or just a innocent citizen practicing OC.
    They don't need to know if the person is a convicted felon. It's not pertinant to the situation. Besides the fact that if the person WAS a convicted felon I can with 99% certainly guarantee that he's hiding his firearm, not carrying it in a holster openly. And only if they KNOW the person is a convicted felon may the stop and question.

    I'd have to ask the person a few questions and then leave it at that..
    Just so as long as you accept the fact that the person has no legal requirement to answer any of your questions and can just turn around and walk away, I don't have a problem with the attempt. If you escalate it beyond that, then you are violating the civil rights of the person you have approached.

    Of course if a LEO approaches in a friendly way and starts a conversation, I am more than happy to talk guns with them.

    Remember the Law Enforcement Officer wants to go home at the end of his/her shift and everybody that has a gun is not legal.
    Wanting to go home at the end of their shift is no excuse for harassing a lawful citizen and violating their civil rights. (Terry v. Ohio)

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    I concur.
    I don't think that an LEO has to ask me any questions to see I am not breaking any laws. So why on earth would I answer them? If they see me OC'ing and I'm not threatening anyone or acting suspicious then go on your way. Asking me Q's at that point is nothing more than unnessary at best and harassment at worse.

    Nothing to see here, move along!

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    it appears that I made a mistake..

    I thought you'd want to see the other side of the discussion..but it appears thatyou either don't know the law .In NC you are required to give your name and ID when so asked, or you don't think the Officer has a reasonable reason to check the ID of a person for his and /or the communities safety.

    Iam afraid that I mistook thissite for people who want to practice OC.

    I would imagine that with the relative novelty of doing so,you'd understand the fact that LEO's would want to ascertain who,what and possibly why a person was wandering around with a gun on the hip.

    Of course I made a mistake..

    I apologize for bothering you with another perspective and only wish you the best.

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