Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: SCCA anti-gun?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    Went in for a check up today, had to empty my pockets for part of it (CT scan). I usually leave my bersa in the car, but today I forgot. I was then told by the nurse that SCCA (Seattle Cancer Care Alliance) has a policy against firearms. I couldn't find anything on their website nor any of their in hospital literature. Is this indeed the case?

    BTW, there are no posted signs.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    , Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    450

    Post imported post

    Whew!...

    Saw the title and thought you were talking about the Sports Car Club of America at first...

    THAT would have pissed me off. It's still pretty disgusting that any organization would lower themselves to that...

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin, USA
    Posts
    9,193

    Post imported post

    molonlabetn wrote:
    Whew!...

    Saw the title and thought you were talking about the Sports Car Club of America at first...

    THAT would have pissed me off. It's still pretty disgusting that any organization would lower themselves to that...
    As past 3-time Region 51 RE, regional driver, Chief of this and that, I heartily agree. I would be careful since the SportsCCA has not missed any opportunity to kneel at the Baals of PC and money - some of the reasons I am no longer associated.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    molonlabetn wrote:
    Whew!...

    Saw the title and thought you were talking about the Sports Car Club of America at first...

    THAT would have pissed me off. It's still pretty disgusting that any organization would lower themselves to that...

    Haha, sorry, I didn't realize there were more SCCA's in the WA area.

    I still don't know if it's the hospital, or if it's just a misguided nurse. I can't find any policy anywhere that states they prohibit firearms...but I'd like to know before my next check up, next week! Though I think that one is just a consultation, so no removing pocket contents.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    190

    Post imported post

    My guess would be she's likely referring to their employee policy and assume it applies to anyone in the buildings. Most corporations ban their employees from carrying.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    Well I went back today for another check up, and browsed some of the posters hanging on their walls while I was there, and sure enough, "weapons" are prohibited and if found they can be "confiscated." It goes on to say that if security personel suspect you have a weapon, they can search you.

    Hmmm....Doesn't seem quite legal, but they do prohibit firearms. Unfortunate...I'm sure there are others who have to visit this facility as well. I wish there was another alternative, but alas...

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Just feeling a little devilish here. What do you suppose would happen if you just handed it the nurse while saying, "Oh! Sorry, would you hold this for me, then?"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    If you would have seen his expression when I just told him, after he asked me to remove the contents of my pocket...

    I believe he would have quite literally **** himself, freaked out, hid from me the rest of the day, and possibly cried.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    BigDaddy5 wrote:
    If you would have seen his expression when I just told him, after he asked me to remove the contents of my pocket...

    I believe he would have quite literally **** himself, freaked out, hid from me the rest of the day, and possibly cried.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member thebastidge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    2519 E Fourth Plain Blvd, Vancouver Washington, USA
    Posts
    313

    Post imported post

    Well, they could definitely ask you to leave, but I don't see how private security can search you, or confiscate YOUR property.

    If they attempted to, then it would be assault, unlawful detention, and theft, would it not?

    Even department store security has to wait until you leave the premises to actually tackle and detain you for the police. And that's in order to retain the property of their employer, not yours...

    I'm sure that their security more often deals with criminals illegally carrying weapons in the emergency room or attempting to steal drugs, in which case the security guys probably don't get charged with anything because the perp has more to worry about dealing with their own legal mess. Since of course, private citizens are not subject to pro forma 4th Amendment procedures, anything a security guard turns over to cops becomes evidence, right?
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

    http://swwsurplus.com/ *** 2519 E Fourth Plain Blvd Vancouver WA 98661 *** 360.314.6687
    http://www.facebook.com/SouthWestWashingtonSurplus *** https://twitter.com/SWWSurplus

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Everett, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,339

    Post imported post

    Private security guards are not held to lawful search and seizure like LEO's are. Anything they find during a search typically can be used in court unless it was during a search in the presence of a LEO in which case PC or an arrest is required for the evidence to be used. If they try and search you then you can leave the premises. I doubt it would be assault as a search of a person would hardly qualify as intent to do harm.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  12. #12
    Regular Member thebastidge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    2519 E Fourth Plain Blvd, Vancouver Washington, USA
    Posts
    313

    Post imported post

    Well, the implication was that they would forcibly search you and confiscate your weapon if they suspected you had one.

    I guess I should have been more clear in my wording- if they did anything other than ask you to leave, or ask you to relinquish a weapon, in other words, anything physical, then they would be assaulting and unlawfully detaining you, as long as you hadn't broken any laws (signs and corporate policies do not count).

    "Private security guards are not held to lawful search and seizure like LEO's are. "

    I think that's what I said, except I used the possibly more correct term "pro forma" rather than lawful.

    A security guard can't "unlawfully" search you because there is no law against search by a private citizen. But if he forcibly detains you and physically manhandles you, then he has committed assault, unless he can produce the justification that he was protecting himself or others from a clear threat, not a person who committed no legal infraction. As far as I can tell, violating a posted policy against firearmsdoes not constitute a priori trespass- they still have to ask you to leave before your presence becomes illegal. Also, if he siezes your property, he has committed theft. If he is armed and uses the threat of physical force, he has committed armed robbery. The difference between theft and government 'seizure' is thatthe latteris under color of authority andit is illegal to resist the act physically (extrapolating from 'resisting arrest'), but itmay be (must be?)redressed by challenging the legitimacy of the seizure under formal due process laws.

    In other words, if a cop takes your gun illegally, it is still illegal for you to resist if you're aware he is a cop. If a robber or private citizen attempts to deprive you of property, it IS legal to resist, in a manner consistent with logical escalation of force, i.e. physical force to resist the theft, then deadly force if and when the perp threatens your life or well-being in reaction to your physical force resistance of the theft.

    I can't brandish my gun to prevent you taking my car that I left running at the curb while I grab a cuppa at Starbucks. But if you're smashing open the window of my car in my driveway, and when I challenge you, you start toward me waving the crowbar, then I can shoot you because you're now a credible threat to my life.

    Back to the security guard: just because somebody has a shiny piece of metal on the chest, and a blue-ish looking set of clothes, doesn't mean he has any authority to detain you. There are laws against impersonating a police officer, I'm not aware of any penalties for simply dressing like a security guard. Who knows who that guy really is? There have been cases of people impersonating both and abusing people's respect for authority.

    If the rent-a-cop approaches you in a reasonable manner and reasonably requests reasonable things, fine. If they think they are THE MAN, then it is time to start considering how far one will comply. (I say this despite having briefly paid my bills bywearing a goofy-ass security guard uniform for several months during one of the more benighted period of my life. Licensed by the state of Oregon, no less.)

    I hope I made sense through all of my meandering.
    Be prepared. Be very prepared.

    http://swwsurplus.com/ *** 2519 E Fourth Plain Blvd Vancouver WA 98661 *** 360.314.6687
    http://www.facebook.com/SouthWestWashingtonSurplus *** https://twitter.com/SWWSurplus

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Here and There, Washington, USA
    Posts
    150

    Post imported post

    thebastidgewrote:
    I hope I made sense through all of my meandering.
    Damn, I forgot to leave a trail of breadcrumbs.

    I suspect the sign saying that "if security personnel suspect you have a weapon, they can search you." may also be to protect the hospital in cases where they need to search an unconscious person. I'm just guessing at that though.

    P.S. I don't really know what pro forma means, my Latin is a bit rusty.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Everett, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,339

    Post imported post

    Sitrep wrote:
    I suspect the sign saying that "if security personnel suspect you have a weapon, they can search you." may also be to protect the hospital in cases where they need to search an unconscious person. I'm just guessing at that though.
    My guess is that they would call that a medical exam.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  15. #15
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Alabama, USA
    Posts
    935

    Post imported post

    thebastidgewrote:
    In other words, if a cop takes your gun illegally, it is still illegal for you to resist if you're aware he is a cop.
    Not sure I like Washington's laws......here in Alabama.......
    Defendant was under no duty to submit to any other than a lawful arrest. Brown v. State, 109 Ala. 70, 20 So. 103,

  16. #16
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,558

    Post imported post

    Well, thebastidge didn't cite any of Washington's laws. Mostly sounded like opinion and/or experience, which we've all learned that experience with LEO's can be far from what's actually a law.

    Also, the sign stated "security personnel", which could mean just a rent-a-cop and not an LEO. They scare me more than LEO's, since a fair amount seem to have a superiority complex to some degree. Not all, but a fair amount that I've met.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Edmonds, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2

    Post imported post

    BigDaddy5- SCCA'spolicy against weaponsis derivedfrom their alliance (merger) with UW Medical Center few years back. WAC 478-124-020 (2) (e) pertaining to UW, which includes UWMC,Fred Hutch, Harbor View and Childrens' Hospital isthe basis forthe policy. -TMan

  18. #18
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Alabama, USA
    Posts
    935

    Post imported post

    just_a_car wrote:
    Also, the sign stated "security personnel", which could mean just a rent-a-cop and not an LEO. They scare me more than LEO's, since a fair amount seem to have a superiority complex to some degree. Not all, but a fair amount that I've met.
    I overheard a "gangsta wannabe" tell a mall security guard "you can't do that, you ain't no cop"...the guard replied
    "that's right and I can kick the **** outa' you without police brutality charges too".....sorry, I know the guard was in the wrong for his "superior attitude" but, I had to laugh.

  19. #19
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,558

    Post imported post

    T-Man wrote:
    BigDaddy5- SCCA'spolicy against weaponsis derivedfrom their alliance (merger) with UW Medical Center few years back. WAC 478-124-020 (2) (e) pertaining to UW, which includes UWMC,Fred Hutch, Harbor View and Childrens' Hospital isthe basis forthe policy. -TMan
    One problem there T-Man, if you go to the bottom, they reference RCW 28B.20.130 as the "Statutory Authority" and the only part of it that gives them the right to have that policy is subsection (1):

    "(1) To have full control of the university and its property of various kinds, except as otherwise provided by law."

    Note where it says "except as otherwise provided by law"... Now, I'm not a lawyer, but that says to me that my lawful carry of a firearm is exempted from their authority.

    Also, this is why the University of Washington Student Code of Conduct has reproduced that reference and in part (6) proclaim:

    "(6) Nothing herein shall be construed to deny students their legally and/or constitutionally protected rights."

    ...and guess what the Washington State Constitution affirms my right to? Yup! RKBA!... and so does the US version.

    ....but I'm not a lawyer.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  20. #20
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,558

    Post imported post

    Comp-tech wrote:
    just_a_car wrote:
    Also, the sign stated "security personnel", which could mean just a rent-a-cop and not an LEO. They scare me more than LEO's, since a fair amount seem to have a superiority complex to some degree. Not all, but a fair amount that I've met.
    I overheard a "gangsta wannabe" tell a mall security guard "you can't do that, you ain't no cop"...the guard replied
    "that's right and I can kick the **** outa' you without police brutality charges too".....sorry, I know the guard was in the wrong for his "superior attitude" but, I had to laugh.
    *chuckle* Nah... that's funny and that kid had it comin'. I think the guard was actually in the right here... that kid's parents obviously failed somewhere along the line and now the community (whom this guard is a part of) is now left to teach him about the real world... and some manners, at the very least. Maybe if his pappy would have pulled out the belt a couple times when he was bad (if his father was even around), he might have been a little more respectful and not on the bad side of the guard in the first place.

    They're not all bad, it's just that many do seem to have the complex I mentioned... to some degree.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Edmonds, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2

    Post imported post

    I concur with your interpretation of the law. See UW is in a place called "lala land." UW has a PD but their medical and hospital facilities are served by private security. A good friend of mine is the former head of security and was aBrassin UWPD. He told me once that the only reason UW has a police department is to bury whatever they want to hide from the public eye. As you might know that they don't really even process the criminals they just hand them over to SPD.

    Anyhow, my point is that they have a lot of policies that they wanted to pass on to us (citizens) as laws, which they could not so they snuck them in and passed them as WACs. This is what you get for having liberal minded nut jobs in Olympia.

  22. #22
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    , Alabama, USA
    Posts
    935

    Post imported post

    just_a_car wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    just_a_car wrote:
    Also, the sign stated "security personnel", which could mean just a rent-a-cop and not an LEO. They scare me more than LEO's, since a fair amount seem to have a superiority complex to some degree. Not all, but a fair amount that I've met.
    I overheard a "gangsta wannabe" tell a mall security guard "you can't do that, you ain't no cop"...the guard replied
    "that's right and I can kick the **** outa' you without police brutality charges too".....sorry, I know the guard was in the wrong for his "superior attitude" but, I had to laugh.
    *chuckle* Nah... that's funny and that kid had it comin'. I think the guard was actually in the right here... that kid's parents obviously failed somewhere along the line and now the community (whom this guard is a part of) is now left to teach him about the real world... and some manners, at the very least. Maybe if his pappy would have pulled out the belt a couple times when he was bad (if his father was even around), he might have been a little more respectful and not on the bad side of the guard in the first place.

    They're not all bad, it's just that many do seem to have the complex I mentioned... to some degree.
    LOL...I agree the kid had it comin' but, this particular guard....as my grand-dad would've said "struts around like he's a full grown rooster"

  23. #23
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Auburn, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,558

    Post imported post

    Yeah, T-Man... as I'm still only making my own interpretation there and haven't consulted a lawyer, I have yet to say anything incriminating, but I can reitterate what I've said elsewhere:

    1. I'm a UW student.
    2. I'm an American Citizen by birth.
    3. I was legally issued a WA CPL.
    4. I own a handgun.
    5. I care about my life and the lives of my fellow American Citizens.

    ...'Nuff said.
    -------------------------------
    Comp-Tech, well, if that's the case, then someone should pluck his feathers clip his comb sometime.

    Edit: Also, T-Man, welcome to the site and hopefully in your 'lurking' you saw the OC Lunch-BBQ on the 21st in Tacoma. Love to see you there!
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
    KF7GEA

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •