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Thread: OC for ages 18-20?

  1. #1
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    While I'm new to posting on the forum, I've been lurking for a while... At any rate, up until yesterday I was under the impression that OC was only for the 21-and-above crowd. I noticed on the age limit map that PA had a minimum age of 18, and have been trying to find a definitive answer as to whether I could legally carry openly, as I am age 19. I understand the prohibition against unlicensed carry in cars, but I'd have more piece of mind being able to OC when walking about crime-ridden Allentown.

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    I can tell you that the founders of this board have done extensive research on the ages to OC.

    I'm not from PA, but I'm sure one of them will chime in soon to help out further.



    Matt



    Welcome to OCDO!

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    Yup you can OC. The trick is getting the gun, which the only way that can happen is if it is a gift from, Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa.

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    Skuggi wrote:
    Yup you can OC. The trick is getting the gun, which the only way that can happen is if it is a gift from, Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa.
    Thanks. I'm sure my father and I can arrange something that isn't a straw purchase. He already gave me the revolver he used to familiarize me with handguns, a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum (7.5" barrel)... although that's a little big for me to OC, I think, regardless of being 6'5" and 270lbs.

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    nah that would be the greatest thing to OC around, if you dont mind the weight!

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    First, it is perfectly legal for a parent or grandparent to give a handgun to a child or grandchild. This is not considered a straw purchase, and is 100% legal.



    Second, it is legal for an 18 year old to "open carry" in PA.

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    Thanks all, I'm a lot more comfortable now. I guess it wouldn't be a straw purchase, per se, if my father purchased a handgun for me with money that I gave him, since I can legally own and possess the handgun, just not purchase it.

    At any rate, it's not really the weight of the Redhawk that concerns me, but the size. I'd like to carry in an IWB holster, and it's too long to do that. Plus, I'd imagine it would present some problems when sitting down... But now that I'm trying to come up with specific reasons against carrying it, I can't really think of too many. I guess it comes down to that it would bring too much attention; while I have no problem explaining my right to carry nor advocating others to carry openly, I also would like to direct the anti's away from the "cowboy" notion of open carry.

    So it seems like the next decision is what handgun to get. I'm basically looking for a medium-sized .45 semi-auto that I can also concealed carry once the magic age of 21 rolls around.

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    Actually what you describe (if my father purchased a handgun for me with money that I gave him) is very much a straw purchase. Since it appears that your father never intended to give you such a gift, it would be a straw purchase (vs a bona fide gift) even if he uses his own money. If your father purchases any firearm, I would wait a good long time (at least a year) before any sale or gift giving to you. Can you do a private purchase in your state?

    imperialism024 wrote:
    Thanks all, I'm a lot more comfortable now. I guess it wouldn't be a straw purchase, per se, if my father purchased a handgun for me with money that I gave him, since I can legally own and possess the handgun, just not purchase it.

    At any rate, it's not really the weight of the Redhawk that concerns me, but the size. I'd like to carry in an IWB holster, and it's too long to do that. Plus, I'd imagine it would present some problems when sitting down... But now that I'm trying to come up with specific reasons against carrying it, I can't really think of too many. I guess it comes down to that it would bring too much attention; while I have no problem explaining my right to carry nor advocating others to carry openly, I also would like to direct the anti's away from the "cowboy" notion of open carry.

    So it seems like the next decision is what handgun to get. I'm basically looking for a medium-sized .45 semi-auto that I can also concealed carry once the magic age of 21 rolls around.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Thanks all, I'm a lot more comfortable now. I guess it wouldn't be a straw purchase, per se, if my father purchased a handgun for me with money that I gave him, since I can legally own and possess the handgun, just not purchase it.

    At any rate, it's not really the weight of the Redhawk that concerns me, but the size. I'd like to carry in an IWB holster, and it's too long to do that. Plus, I'd imagine it would present some problems when sitting down... But now that I'm trying to come up with specific reasons against carrying it, I can't really think of too many. I guess it comes down to that it would bring too much attention; while I have no problem explaining my right to carry nor advocating others to carry openly, I also would like to direct the anti's away from the "cowboy" notion of open carry.

    So it seems like the next decision is what handgun to get. I'm basically looking for a medium-sized .45 semi-auto that I can also concealed carry once the magic age of 21 rolls around.

    STOP THIS DISCUSSION NOW!


    Come on, people. That is the EXACT definition of afelony straw purchase and ILLEGAL activity.

    As a gift it would have been completely legal, that is until you posted your illegal intentions to conduct a straw-purchase here on the internet for all to see. A gift would be HIS money. If YOU give him money for the sale, it's a straw purchase. PERIOD.

    Even if I delete this thread right now, there are already cached copies floating all over the net and stored on servers.

    We are a pretty forgiving bunch here and lightly moderated, but illegal activityis one thing I'll jump all over.


    DO NOT DISCUSS ILLEGAL ACTIVITY ON OCDO. PERIOD.


    HAGND



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    No need to jump all over me, BobCav. That's why I mentioned it as a concern. Now that I see what I was intending to do is illegal, I won't do it. I explained my reasoning as to why I thought it might not be illegal, and that was proven erroneous.

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    there is one loop to this and I've heard it before, I'm not sure which state it was in though. The same thing happened, and what it ended up being was it was a gift, as the grandfather in this case was gifiting his grandson the responsibility of a handgun.

    if anyone can find this article, it was a while back that it pinged in one of the legal journals maybe 2 years ago.

    remember though, it worked for them and especially if they were in another state, it could very well not work for you depending on how the laws are interpreted. Best is beg your dad for one for your b-day

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    Since the transaction decribed would be a violation of federal law, it doesn't matter in which state it occurred. I will expand on what has been said in that the source of the funding, in and of itself, is not determinative. Nor is possession. Let's say that you think your spinster Aunt May should have a handgun for her personal protection. You are 19 years old. Aunt May knows nothing about handguns but is a fast learner and is going to get adequate training, etc.

    Unfortunately, Aunt May is on a fixed income while you have a trust fund. You take Aunt May to Wally's Guns and Lingerie. You pick out a Lady Smith that you think will suit Aunt May, you give the required $600 to Aunt May, she fills out the 4473 and passes the Instacheck, you carry the carry the encased gun because it's in a bag with 1000 rounds. You schedule Aunt May for training but she asks you to keep the gun until the training (which she completes) two weeks later. You then pick her up in your Lamborghini and take her out for an afternoon of sushi and shooting. Aunt May takes the gun home at the end of the day. Has a straw purchase occurred? No. Aunt May is the true purchaser. Aunt May filled out the 4473. This is the key issue. Of course, caution is in order because certain behavior (included that which I described) can be indicia of a straw purchase. A straw purchase is one in which the true purchaser is not the person who completes the 4473. And please note that it does not matter if both parties can legally purchase (it used to be that the true purchaserhad to be a prohibited person).





    Skuggi wrote:
    there is one loop to this and I've heard it before, I'm not sure which state it was in though. The same thing happened, and what it ended up being was it was a gift, as the grandfather in this case was gifiting his grandson the responsibility of a handgun.

    if anyone can find this article, it was a while back that it pinged in one of the legal journals maybe 2 years ago.

    remember though, it worked for them and especially if they were in another state, it could very well not work for you depending on how the laws are interpreted. Best is beg your dad for one for your b-day

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    Skuggi wrote:
    Yup you can OC. The trick is getting the gun, which the only way that can happen is if it is a gift from, Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa.
    IN PA, yes, private transfers must go thru PICS via dealer or Sheriffs, and I'm not aware of any Sheriffs doing this, so intra-family transfer is the exception -but the transfer does NOT have to be a gift - it can be a sale.

    Also, 18-20 year olds moving tinto PA with their handgun are good to go as well - this should help many college students moving to PA for college.

    Worst case, move to any of the majority of states which do not criminalize private sales, establish a residence, buy your handgun(s), and then move back to PA later.

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    Just a reminder, you can open carry if you're 18 but NOT in a vehicle or philadelphia!

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    exceltoexcel wrote:
    Just a reminder, you can open carry if you're 18 but NOT in a vehicle or philadelphia!
    If you have any state's CHP/LTCF, you may OC in vehicles at age 18, even in Philedelphia.

    If you have a CHP/LTCF officially recognized by the PA AG, you may OC on the streets of Philedelphia.

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    Mike wrote:
    exceltoexcel wrote:
    Just a reminder, you can open carry if you're 18 but NOT in a vehicle or philadelphia!
    If you have any state's CHP/LTCF, you may OC in vehicles at age 18, even in Philedelphia.

    If you have a CHP/LTCF officially recognized by the PA AG, you may OC on the streets of Philedelphia.
    Hmm now the question is: are there any states that will grant a non-resident CHP/LTCF to a 19-year-old? Perhaps there will be a summer trip in order...

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Skuggi wrote:
    Yup you can OC. The trick is getting the gun, which the only way that can happen is if it is a gift from, Mom, Dad, Grandma or Grandpa.
    Thanks. I'm sure my father and I can arrange something that isn't a straw purchase. He already gave me the revolver he used to familiarize me with handguns, a Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum (7.5" barrel)... although that's a little big for me to OC, I think, regardless of being 6'5" and 270lbs.
    I'm 6' and Lb220 and carry a Ruger Vaquero 44Mag ( 5.5")

    In PA

    Title 18 § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.


    (a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes
    CRIMES AND OFFENSES (TITLE 18)
    PART II. DEFINITION OF SPECIFIC OFFENSES.
    ARTICLE G. MISCELLANEOUS OFFENSES
    CHAPTER 61. FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS ARTICLES

    Subchapter A. Uniform Firearms Act
    Subchapter B. Firearms Generally
    Subchapter C. Other Dangerous Articles

    SUBCHAPTER A - UNIFORM FIREARMS ACT

    § 6101. Short title of subchapter.
    § 6102. Definitions.
    § 6103. Crimes committed with firearms.
    § 6104. Evidence of intent.
    § 6105. Persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms.
    § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
    § 6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.
    § 6107. Prohibited conduct during emergency.
    § 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.
    § 6109. Licenses.
    § 6110. [Repealed].
    § 6110.1. Possession of firearm by minor.
    § 6110.2. Possession of firearm with altered manufacturer's number.
    § 6111. Sale or transfer of firearms.
    § 6111.1. Pennsylvania State Police.
    § 6111.2. Firearm sales surcharge.
    § 6111.3. Firearm Instant Records Check Fund.
    § 6111.4. Registration of firearms.
    § 6111.5. Rules and regulations.
    § 6112. Retail dealer required to be licensed.
    § 6113. Licensing of dealers.
    § 6114. Judicial review.
    § 6115. Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited.
    § 6116. False evidence of identity.
    § 6117. Altering or obliterating marks of identification.
    § 6118. Antique firearms.
    § 6119. Violation penalty.
    § 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition.
    § 6121. Certain bullets prohibited.
    § 6122. Proof of license and exception.
    § 6123. Waiver of disability or pardons.
    § 6124. Administrative regulations.
    § 6125. Distribution of uniform firearm laws and firearm safety brochures.
    § 6126. Firearms Background Check Advisory Committee.
    § 6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.
    (a) General rule.--Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons excepted from the requirement of a license to carry firearms under section 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) nor shall the provisions of this section be construed to permit persons to carry firearms in a vehicle where such conduct is prohibited by section 6106.

    (b) Penalty.--A person who violates the provisions of this section commits a summary offense.



    The complete Pennsylvania Statutes are not yet available on the web. However, selected portions have been made available and can be accessed by CLICKING HERE. These statutes, though available instantaneously over the web, may not be the current law. Court decisions overturning them, later statutes amending them, and a host of other factors come into play when interpreting them. They are provided here as a resource. They should provide some information about the state of the law. However, a competent lawyer, who from other sources will research the law to insure what is current, should always be employed in matters of importance.

    Visit/Return to Home Page of Pennsylvania District Court 15-4-04.


  18. #18
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    So far it seems like my best bet for being able to get LTCF priviledges in PA is to get a permit from New Hampshire, as 18 is accepted as the age limit for a LTCF, they grant non-resident licenses, it is a shall-issue state, I don't need to be present to apply, and they have a full reciprocacy agreement with PA. The only catch is that I need a LTCF from any other state, but I figure I could just get this from a state that doesn't have reciprocacy with PA but will still issue me a LTCF, like Maine or North Dakota. I would be able to especially justify the Maine permit, as it's a state I travel to once in a while.

  19. #19
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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    So far it seems like my best bet for being able to get LTCF priviledges in PA is to get a permit from New Hampshire, as 18 is accepted as the age limit for a LTCF, they grant non-resident licenses, it is a shall-issue state, I don't need to be present to apply, and they have a full reciprocacy agreement with PA. The only catch is that I need a LTCF from any other state, but I figure I could just get this from a state that doesn't have reciprocacy with PA but will still issue me a LTCF, like Maine or North Dakota. I would be able to especially justify the Maine permit, as it's a state I travel to once in a while.
    that also is ify, the AG has said that those permits arent valid if the person is not a resident of the state they have the recipricatory with. I think though, that only the PSP are abiding by that decision at this time.

  20. #20
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    Skuggi wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    So far it seems like my best bet for being able to get LTCF priviledges in PA is to get a permit from New Hampshire, as 18 is accepted as the age limit for a LTCF, they grant non-resident licenses, it is a shall-issue state, I don't need to be present to apply, and they have a full reciprocacy agreement with PA. The only catch is that I need a LTCF from any other state, but I figure I could just get this from a state that doesn't have reciprocacy with PA but will still issue me a LTCF, like Maine or North Dakota. I would be able to especially justify the Maine permit, as it's a state I travel to once in a while.
    that also is ify, the AG has said that those permits arent valid if the person is not a resident of the state they have the recipricatory with. I think though, that only the PSP are abiding by that decision at this time.
    Thanks for pointing that out. Looking at the other thread that references the AG's proclaimation, it seems like the issue is up in the air at the moment... At any rate, since I plan on open carrying anyway (that is, until the AG tries to ban that, too...), my main concern is just getting any state's LTCF. It will be interesting to see how it pans out, though.

    Edited to add: I was a little put off when I went to the PA AG's site and "firearms reciprocacy" was under the "Crime" heading, along with "child predator unit", "insurance fraud", and "drug strike force". I still can't tell whether they're implying that carrying a firearms IS a crime, or whether it is a way to FIGHT crime...

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    You can LEGALLY have a paperless transfer in Pa between spouses, between parents and children or grand-parents and grand-children.



    His dad can also Loan him the gun to carry. As far as waiting a year, why? It's a paperless transfer, he could carry it everyday on "loan" and then one day it's "his", having never done a thing diferrently.



    Infact you can loan a gun to a friend as long as neither of you is restricted from owning a gun. There is also no legal diffinition of a loan, or time limit associated with it. So a loan could be 10 years.

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