Open Carry as a deterrent to crime

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Kevin108 wrote:

Those cameras weren't much of a deterrent for him.

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No but they did cost him his life.

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Kevin108 wrote:

Malls are public places but they are private property and behind the lenses and wires of any of their cameras is not a government employee.

I'm not paranoid but this is the government we're talking about. They can already read your mail and listen to your phone conversations. Why give them the infrastructure to infiltrate our lives any further? If the government has our best interests in mind, why do we have to fight constantly to maintain our rights established by the Constituion?

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Now you have taken a big step... I am part of the government but I cannot read your mail or listen in to your phone calls... And then I would need a search warrant to even do so.

So if something is done without your knowledge... the Government could install secret cameras to record you. This is something that I know we do and no warrant is needed since it is in public view. This is reserved for bad guys under investigation. This is not for Joe Citizen doing nothing wrong.

I agree that the top people in government offices suck and could care less about the people. But I am looking at local government or local police stations. They are not directly connected to politicians wanting to take away your rights.

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Kevin108 wrote:

Those cameras weren't much of a deterrent for him.

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Obviously... the government was not interested in him since he was not doing anything wrong... that they knew of.

So here we have a man that was not tortured or killed to figure out where he was going and he was/is a criminal.

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Hawkflyer wrote:

Kevin108 wrote:

Those cameras weren't much of a deterrent for him.

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No but they did cost him his life.

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Correct.... He was a bad guy and there was proof available to help stop him from killing Innocent kids in a day care again.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

Kevin108 wrote:

Those cameras weren't much of a deterrent for him.

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No but they did cost him his life.

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Correct....  He was a bad guy and there was proof available to help stop him from killing Innocent kids in a day care again.

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You bet!

And these were not even street cameras, these were bank ATM cameras, and a few security cameras from stores along his route. Cameras rarely stop crimes from being committed, but they sure are nice for solving them after the fact.

Regards

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LEO 229 wrote:

A police state to me would be having a police officer posted on every corner armed with anmachine gunlooking everyone over. This would help stop crime and make people upset and cost more in taxes.

Cameras or more cops.. what do you want? With crime at the level it has... the existing cops are not having much of an impact. More cops may help but that costs more money and raises taxes. So either way the people will be upset and never be satisfied. At least cameras are not as visible and cost less overall.

Having the citizens arms themselves is an option but there are MMM that do not like guns and will not carry a gun. So how are we to protect those who cannot protect themselves on a cold, dark night?

You continue to speak about control and privacy. You have NO PRIVACY while out in the public view. How are you being controlled by a camera? Do you hear voices at the ATM that commands you to do things?

Who watches the watchers....? Who polices the police?? It really makes no difference. You would rather have more police out on the street that can torture and kill you verses a single person in a room watching you on a camera. I am confused.

Give me an example on someone who had been monitored walking down the street and based on being viewed on videowas abused.

"one is under threat of judgment and criticism when under constant surveillance."

This can happen at any time from a LEO watching you from his car!!! In either case.... you may or may not even know your being watched. Where exactly is there a problem. This also happens with citizens you watch you walk down the street as you pass by. Is it wrong for that citizen to think you could be a threat and he decides to keep an eye on you till you pass?

Again with "control".... BB can control the camera.. not you. You do what you like around the camera.

I appreciate your thoughts and views but feel your being paranoid and full of nothing but speculation on things that could happen.

I think that if the state allows everyone toCC in a bar... they will get drunk and shoot people.... what are the chances?

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Your definition of a police state is exactly that...your definition. A police state does not have to resemble your definition to be a police state or tyranny.

I want less cameras and less cops. Government needs to get rid of the unconstitutional gun control laws and allow people to arm and defend themselves.

If citizens fail to arm themselves for personal protection, that is their right. Those are the people that have failed to take personal responsibility for their rights and self-defense.

Agreed. There is no privacy out in public, especially nowadays when surveillance is so prevalent. However, most of these surveillance systems are privately owned and operated. They are not owned and operated by government bureaucracy. With most of these privately operated surveillance systems, government agencies do not have access to them unless under the auspices of a criminal investigation.

Using the fact that there are a myriad of private surveillance systems does not justify the implementation and use of government owned and operated surveillance systems. I pay the taxes, and I prefer that my taxes not go to government surveillance systems.

You are making wrong assumptions about me. You say that I want more cops out there killing and torturing people. I don't want more cops. I want less cops. I want less cameras. As I said earlier, the citizens need their right to self-defense to be restored and left alone.

Who watches the watchers? Who polices the police? We, the people do. We, the people are the governing body of this country. It is we, the people that need to continue to stand up to the unconstitutional laws that erode the rights of the people.

Again with "control".... BB can control the camera.. not you. You do what you like around the camera.

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EXACTLY! When BB controls the camera, we are no longer a country and government of the people, by the people.

I appreciate your thoughts and views but feel your being paranoid and full of nothing but speculation on things that could happen

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And I you. I appreciate your thoughts and insights, regardless of the fact that I disagree with you on almost every argument. Your posts give us a view into law enforcement that many citizens are not privy to.

Regardless of this, I have made the observation that, IMO, you are the type of person who likes to get the last word in. Therefore, since I have made my points clear, I will end this discussion. I just hope that these points and insight will serve their purpose and help to penetrate you and relax your ideals a bit.

EDIT: To correct spelling and typographical errors

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Hawkflyer wrote:

You bet!

And these were not even street cameras, these were bank ATM cameras, and a few security cameras from stores along his route. Cameras rarely stop crimes from being committed, but they sure are nice for solving them after the fact.

Regards

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Exactly!

Criminals may try to avoid a camera when possible but not always. They are willing to go past it when they think your not going to have a clue what they are doing. But.... After they have done it and you can look for them on the tape....

You can find something to lead you back to them and pull them out of society so others will be safe.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Hawkflyer wrote:

You bet!

And these were not even street cameras, these were bank ATM cameras, and a few security cameras from stores along his route. Cameras rarely stop crimes from being committed, but they sure are nice for solving them after the fact.

Regards

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Exactly!

Criminals may try to avoid a camera when possible but not always. They are willing to go past it when they think your not going to have a clue what they are doing. But....  After they have done it and you can look for them on the tape....

You can find something to lead you back to them and pull them out of society so others will be safe.

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Well, can the cameras make people not-dead, too?

Otherwise, I think I'd stick to the more direct approach to crime-prevention.

Though, on a side note, better enforcement by the courts would make things a lot better.

This includes getting rid of appeal-for-life deathrow inmates.

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Aside from VRWMILLER's personal comments about LEO229, I agree with him.

LEO229, you my not see your perseption of what a police state is taking form but eventually the amount of controle becomes similer. No, you wont see a cop on every corner, but a cop will see you on every corner. Thats like a physical (wire) tap without a warant.

When the people dont controlgovernment, government controles the people.

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Fittingly enough, I just found this on 4ch-... never mind where I found it.

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It is like being married....

No harm in looking at what is out in the public view.... When you start touching is when you get in trouble.

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AbNo wrote:

...SNIP
Well, can the cameras make people not-dead, too?

Otherwise, I think I'd stick to the more direct approach to crime-prevention.

Though, on a side note, better enforcement by the courts would make things a lot better.

This includes getting rid of appeal-for-life deathrow inmates.

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Of course it does not bring back the dead. But it does sometimes stop the next killing. I personally have 7 guys to my credit in that regard. Two are certainly NOT going to kill again, the other 5 are waiting to be sent back to the manufacturer in various institutions around the US. But those five are not likely to kill again, unless it is another convict.

Just a note on the camera thing. I certainly support the use of available video to solve crimes and convict criminals. I have never seen any validated evidence that supports the conclusion that cameras actually STOP a dedicated criminal from carrying out a criminal act. I do not believe in government video surveillance systems outside of government facilities and police cars. While legally people out in public can be video taped, I do not support the installation of systems like the British are using. And I obviously do not support the British position on capitol punishment.

That said, the systems are coming, and there is not much anyone can do to stop it.

Regards

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Hawkflyer wrote:

AbNo wrote:

...SNIP
Well, can the cameras make people not-dead, too?

Otherwise, I think I'd stick to the more direct approach to crime-prevention.

Though, on a side note, better enforcement by the courts would make things a lot better.

This includes getting rid of appeal-for-life deathrow inmates.

Click to expand...

Of course it does not bring back the dead. But it does sometimes stop the next killing. I personally have 7 guys to my credit in that regard. Two are certainly NOT going to kill again, the other 5 are waiting to be sent back to the manufacturer in various institutions around the US. But those five are not likely to kill again, unless it is another convict.

Just a note on the camera thing. I certainly support the use of available video to solve crimes and convict criminals. I have never seen any validated evidence that supports the conclusion that cameras actually STOP a dedicated criminal from carrying out a criminal act. I do not believe in government video surveillance systems outside of government facilities and police cars. While legally people out in public can be video taped, I do not support the installation of systems like the British are using. And I obviously do not support the British position on capitol punishment.

That said, the systems are coming, and there is not much anyone can do to stop it.

Regards

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I'm glad you clarified that, Hawk, because while it's too late to stop surveilance technology in places like 711 and ATM machines (nor is it right to limit technology in legitimate private use), it's never too late to limit how government can act.

Video from an ATM machine, can, and should, be used to help solve a crime after the fact, provided all the due process is followed. But it's another thing entirely for the government to have automatic access to privately-owned cameras whenever it feels like. Same thing goes for government cameras on lightpoles that are just there to watch and record what people are doing.

While various goverments, including DC, do this around the US, that can always be remedied by legislation and court battles. We've managed to reverse decades of gun control in many states, we can do it with other freedom issues as well. I agree it won't be easy. Rulers are voyeurs and they are addicted to snooping.

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Tomahawk wrote:

...SNIP
While various goverments, including DC, do this around the US, that can always be remedied by legislation and court battles. We've managed to reverse decades of gun control in many states, we can do it with other freedom issues as well. I agree it won't be easy. Rulers are voyeurs and they are addicted to snooping.

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In the meantime, if you get behind the camera first, one of these can fix the problem one camera at a time -



Regards

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DC already has cameras..... I believe they also have gun shot triangulation capability too...I'd like to see what percentage of crime has dropped since they implemented the cameras, and then after the triangulation software.

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You know, I seem to remember reading about some device that would kill a camera's light detection abilities.

I think I lost that file in a HD crash a few years back.

OMG! Conspiracy! :what: :lol: