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Thread: Open Carry in Rural Northern California 2007

  1. #1
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    June 9, 2007



    Carried loaded and exposed for breakfast at Vic’s Branding Iron this morning. This was the first carry with the new retention rig, and certainly there was a difference in the profile I presented. The retention holster seems to hold the grip a little further away from my body than the Bianchi thumb break holster, so as I made my way through the restaurant I placed my forearm against the grip to protect my weapon. The restaurant was heavily populated.



    I only passed one person who seemed to notice, they were on their way out with their family. Most others appeared oblivious. I sat at the counter, ordered my breakfast and a patron moved from my left to three stools to my right. He moved so he could read his paper without interfering with other customers and no doubt had a clear view of my sidearm. While I was there, he crossed behind me two separate times- once to get another section of paper and then to use the restroom. Another patron sat in the stool directly to my right- he was an old timer, and it wasn’t clear if he noticed I was armed or not. Most of the employees while executing their services passed behind me, and no doubt could see that I was armed.



    I was not engaged in conversation by anyone.

    There were no looks of disapproval or fright.

    No police (to my knowledge) were summoned.

    I was not bludgeoned over the head and disarmed.

    No one attempted to grab my weapon.

    And I was not hauled away by police for any charge.



    I finished my breakfast, paid at the register and left. I debated in my mind whether or not I would stop at my bank, which has a branch inside the Walmart- but i would have to carry unloaded as it is inside incorporated city limits. I decided against it, because I remembered that they probably wouldnt be open that early on a weekend.


    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Good to see ya back in the saddle! And great to read this in the California forum again!

    Note to anyone considering open carry in CA, either in an incorporated city or unincorporated area, please PM myself or ConditionThree before doing so.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    cato wrote:
    Good to see ya back in the saddle! And great to read this in the California forum again!

    Note to anyone considering open carry in CA, either in an incorporated city or unincorporated area, please PM myself or ConditionThree before doing so.
    Thanks Cato. I took a break from OC for a number reasons. Among them was to do more research, assemble a retention rig to ensure the security and safety of my sidearm, and winter weather somewhat removes one of my reasons to OC.

    In every endevor like this, I try to be prepared. It has been postulated in other venuesthat I have been reckless and foolish,... and in making these deliberate preparations I hope I can dispell that notion and lend some credibility to the practice of OC.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Great work!

    What newspaper(s) serves the area you live and/or OC the most in CA?

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Great work!

    What newspaper(s) serves the area you live and/or OC the most in CA?
    The Record Searchlight.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    I find this issue somewhat strange. OC is mostly legal in unincorporated areas so what you're doing isn't legallyrisky. There are restrictions, which you're aware of & some of which you "may" be unknowingly violating (carrying a loaded firearm within the prohibited distance of a public highway for instance), but generally what you're doing is merely showing up legally and openly armedwhen people normally don't do that.

    For the most part, people assume you're LEO if they don't know better. Even if you're wearing strange clothes a weapon displayed means peace officer to most folks.

    I find your efforts to get an OC permit more intriging. You might be the first (and only) person in the entire State to ever get one.

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    Rob P. wrote:
    I find this issue somewhat strange. OC is mostly legal in unincorporated areas so what you're doing isn't legallyrisky. There are restrictions, which you're aware of & some of which you "may" be unknowingly violating (carrying a loaded firearm within the prohibited distance of a public highway for instance),
    Whoa!!!! What restriction are you talking about against carrying on or near a public highway? There is a CA court decision cited elsewhere on this board clearly stating that OC while in a vehicle on a CA road in an unincorporated area is not any violation of law.



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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Rob P. wrote:
    I find this issue somewhat strange. OC is mostly legal in unincorporated areas so what you're doing isn't legallyrisky. There are restrictions, which you're aware of & some of which you "may" be unknowingly violating (carrying a loaded firearm within the prohibited distance of a public highway for instance), but generally what you're doing is merely showing up legally and openly armedwhen people normally don't do that.

    For the most part, people assume you're LEO if they don't know better. Even if you're wearing strange clothes a weapon displayed means peace officer to most folks.

    I find your efforts to get an OC permit more intriging. You might be the first (and only) person in the entire State to ever get one.
    Welcome to the OCDO forum Ron P.

    One of things you might not be aware of on the forum, is that sometimes when unsubstantiated statements are made about the law, there is often a 'penalty flag' thrown on the play- as with Mike's "Whoa" statement... If we say something is illegal, some effort to give a code citation is somewhat expected.

    I personally haven't heard of a stand alone code citation that would dictate a prohibition to carry for a certaindistance from a public highway... Like Mike, I would be interested in specifics as I hope to be completely compliant in my activities.

    And while what I'm doing is legal, I have been told in other venues that under NO circumstances is open carry legal anywhere in California. (I was even told by a CA CCW instructor thatit would be justifiedto shoot me if I open carried.) My objective in part, is to show these naysayers that this is incorrect. There is also a public relations aspect to this as well- like Virginia, rural California is populated by those on both sides of the 2A issue and demonstrating in both locations that firearms owners are not 'bogeyman' deserving of any more scrutiny than a person openly carrying a "Leatherman" on their hip. The challenge this presents to people's perceptions is nothing to take lightly...even if it is perfectly legal or observers falsely believe that I'm a LEO.

    Pursuing the license to carry 'loaded and exposed' is a bit more problematic- I've been reluctant to apply for an amendment to my CCW because of local political reasons. Issuance of such an amendment could agitate the leadership of two municipalities and likely be declined for that reason alone. I suppose I wont know for sure unless I get out and apply. It would certainly be a coup in California though. I'm open to suggestion via PM on the matter if anyone has any ideas.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    All right, I am apparently mistaken since the courts have decided this is OK to do. When I try to come up with statutory authority on the prohibition I think of Fish & Game code section 2006:

    "It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
    along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
    open to the public...."
    Apparently I have mentally cross referenced the California F&G prohibition about loaded long arms in vehicles to also prohibit carrying loaded short arms. My apologies for the misinformation. In my defense I have probably done this due to the regulations about the transportation of firearms in Penal Code 12026.1 (The transportation of firearms requires that they be in a locked container in the vehicles trunk.) My thinking on this would be that if the law requires that the weapon be in a locked container while in the vehicle then it cannot be transported on the dashboard or openly on the seat.


    I cannot remember where/when I formed the opinion that having a loaded weapon within so-many-feet of a public highway is unlawful. I believe that this is also a F&G regulation but the only reference I can find is a prohibition against discharging the weapon in the prohibited distance of the road. Again, my apologies for the misinformation regarding this. I am apparently getting old and forgetful of the things I once knew.



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    Rob P. wrote:
    All right, I am apparently mistaken since the courts have decided this is OK to do. When I try to come up with statutory authority on the prohibition I think of Fish & Game code section 2006:

    "It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or
    along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
    open to the public...."

    Ibelieve you are correct with this section although I have never read it. What is the section #. I'm also curious to see what the F&G definition of Loaded is.


    This section was used to arrest and convict some Black Panthers in Sacramento as they left the capitol city after open carrying loaded rifles and shotguns into the state legislative chambers back in '67. Seethis:

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/2425.html


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    It's section 2006 of the Fish & Game code that deals with transporting loaded long arms.

    F&G defines "loaded" in a couple of different ways. One is only when an unexpended round is in the chamber but allows live ammo in magazines/clips etc still in the weapon. Another section says that "loaded" is when live ammo in in the chamber,mag/clip or on the person or anywhere under the control ofthe person. So, you could still have a "loaded" firearm if you pull the magazine and put it in your pocket under some sections of the F&G code. One round in the bottom of your shooting bag while you carry would be enough.

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    Rob P. wrote:
    I think of Fish & Game code section 2006:
    Ha! I missed that. For some reason my brain saw it as a date of publication or some such nonsense.

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    Rob P. wrote:
    It's section 2006 of the Fish & Game code that deals with transporting loaded long arms.
    Here it is:http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/di...file=2000-2019

    F & G section 2006.

    It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
    vehicle or conveyance or its attachments
    which is standing on or
    along or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way
    open to the public.
    A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
    of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in the
    firing chamber
    but not when the only cartridges or shells are in the
    magazine.
    The provisions of this section shall not apply to peace officers
    or members of the armed forces of this State or the United States,
    while on duty or going to or returning from duty.


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    June 18, 2007



    Burney, California



    My work this morning took me to a location just east of Burney and on my return trip I carried loaded and exposed while fueling up at a Shell station/ convenience store in Johnson Park. I waited to be served behind someone attempting to use a debit card and two other customers piled up behind me. I paid for my gas and left without obvious odd looks, comment, or incident.



    I rolled into Burney and stopped at the Safeway for a Snapple. The store was heavily populated- and there didn’t initially appear to be a reaction from anyone I saw. I asked a cashier if they had any refrigerated. He said they had some in four packs, but nothing in the refrigerated case. I told him Id compromise and I got a coke instead. As he rung me up he quietly said, “You’re freaking out the tourists with your gun…” and said something like “they aren’t used to places like Burney.” I replied, “Some people are funny about that- I’m not staying long.” I got my coke and left. I never really saw the lady the cashier mentioned. I suppose she thought if I saw her I might shoot her.


    I had my voice recorder activated, but it was picking up lots of background and incidental noise (like the noise made as fabric moved on my clothes while I walked.). So, I will have to find a different more secure way to carry my recorder.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Great report and great laconic verbal style!

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    does your voice recorder have an external microphone jack? If so you might try a small lapel mic from radio shack. Any ways keep up the good work, I am here in Shasta County also and applaud your efforts to educate the public.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    deadbattery wrote:
    does your voice recorder have an external microphone jack? If so you might try a small lapel mic from radio shack. Any ways keep up the good work, I am here in Shasta County also and applaud your efforts to educate the public.
    Welcome to the board deadbattery. I look forward to seeing more folks from Superior California, whatever the level of their participation. Spread the word.

    My recorder does have a mic jack and I will be following your advice.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Thanx much, I've been lurking here for a while and enjoy the updates.

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    June 24, 2007


    Anderson, CA


    Today I went to “Big Town Hero” which is located in the Shasta Factory Outlets in Anderson, California. This represents a milestone, since the factory outlets are located inside incorporated city limits and there are police and sheriff substations on the property.

    So, in adherence with PC12031, I carried my sidearm unloaded.

    (For those who care, I had an 8” turkey sandwich on white, light mayo.)

    The place was populated inside and out by two families, a young couple, a middle aged couple, and a mom with a daughter. There was quite a bit of traffic in and out. None of the patrons seemed to care that I was armed, even an 8 or 9-year-old boy made no commentand didn'tappear to be frightened or disturbed.

    I walked up to the movie theater and checked movie times, but chose not to go. I think it’s important to do all the things that are natural; but it seemed pointless to this challenge to carry into a darkened theatre. Instead, I went to the Anderson Wal-Mart Super center, where inside there is a branch of my bank. The place was a hive of activity.While there, I ran into one of my father’s neighbors and chatted with him for about 5 minutes. He introduced me to his grandsons, making no mention of my exposed sidearm. I transacted my business at my bank without problem.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    Today I went to “Big Town Hero” which is located in the Shasta Factory Outlets in Anderson, California. This represents a milestone, since the factory outlets are located inside incorporated city limits and there are police and sheriff substations on the property.

    So, in adherence with PC12031, I carried my sidearm unloaded.
    Refresh my memory on CA law - are you sayng you can OC an "unloaded" handgun in incorporated areas of CA?

    Also, what does "unloaded" mean in CA?

    Where can you lawfully cary your magazine(s)?

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    In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

    You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.

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    Rob P. wrote:
    In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

    You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.
    I mean, there are some DUMBgun laws, but THAT has to be one of the DUMBEST!

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    Mike wrote:
    Refresh my memory on CA law - are you sayng you can OC an "unloaded" handgun in incorporated areas of CA?

    Also, what does "unloaded" mean in CA?

    Where can you lawfully cary your magazine(s)?
    Rob P. wrote:
    In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

    You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc


    Okay- I guess it's time to refresh folks on lawful open carry in California again. As you should know I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice. This is my understanding of the law as I have read it... and reread it... and read it again.

    You can open carry an UNLOADED firearm in a belt holster without permit orlicensenearly anywhere in the state except; within 1000ft of a school (PC626.9) , in any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public (PC171b),a State park (CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a)) or National Park (36 C.F.R. 2.4(a)), or in a post office (Sorry, citation absent.).

    PC12031(g)defines what constitutes a loaded firearm
    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    So, a semi-auto pistol with no round in the chamber and a loaded magazine carried 'unattached' to the firearm is notconsidereda 'loaded'firearm.

    The population stipulation Ron P. is quoting, is from PC12050 which describes the two formats of 'licenses to carry' available for issuance by municipal police chiefs and county sheriffs... The first format is a license to carry 'concealed', the second is a license to carry 'loaded and exposed' which is limited to counties with populations of less than 200,000 people. It is this license that would allow carry of a loaded firearm inside incorporated city limits and prohibited areas in unicorporated territory.

    This is a good place to start researching these laws...

    http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/


    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

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    Rob P. wrote:
    In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

    You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.
    Rob - you are conflating different statutes into somthing that is not correct. See discussion threads in the CA section - OC in CA is OK in unincorporated areas, unless a County ordaince says otherwise - vehicles too.

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    ConditionThree wrote:
    You can open carry an UNLOADED firearm in a belt holster without permit orlicensenearly anywhere in the state except; within 1000ft of a school (PC626.9) , in any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public (PC171b),a State park (CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a)) or National Park (36 C.F.R. 2.4(a)), or in a post office (Sorry, citation absent.).

    PC12031 (g)defines what constitutes a loaded firearm
    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    OK, thanks - we usually do not track OC of unloaded guns on this board, but in CA, it would appear that this is an important fact to understand when traveling from one unincorp. area to another, thru an incorp. area. A person OCing Israeli style could simply pull the mag out just before entering the incorp. area and be legal - good to know.

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