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Open Carry in Rural Northern California 2007

Rob P.

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In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.
 

Pa. Patriot

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Rob P. wrote:
In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.

I mean, there are some DUMB gun laws, but THAT has to be one of the DUMBEST! :banghead:
 

ConditionThree

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Mike wrote:

Refresh my memory on CA law - are you sayng you can OC an "unloaded" handgun in incorporated areas of CA?

Also, what does "unloaded" mean in CA?

Where can you lawfully cary your magazine(s)?

Rob P. wrote:
In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc


Okay- I guess it's time to refresh folks on lawful open carry in California again. As you should know I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice. This is my understanding of the law as I have read it... and reread it... and read it again.

You can open carry an UNLOADED firearm in a belt holster without permit orlicensenearly anywhere in the state except; within 1000ft of a school (PC626.9) , in any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public (PC171b),a State park (CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a)) or National Park (36 C.F.R. 2.4(a)), or in a post office (Sorry, citation absent.).

PC12031(g)defines what constitutes a loaded firearm
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

So, a semi-auto pistol with no round in the chamber and a loaded magazine carried 'unattached' to the firearm is notconsidereda 'loaded'firearm.

The population stipulation Ron P. is quoting, is from PC12050 which describes the two formats of 'licenses to carry' available for issuance by municipal police chiefs and county sheriffs... The first format is a license to carry 'concealed', the second is a license to carry 'loaded and exposed' which is limited to counties with populations of less than 200,000 people. It is this license that would allow carry of a loaded firearm inside incorporated city limits and prohibited areas in unicorporated territory.

This is a good place to start researching these laws...

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/
 

Mike

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Rob P. wrote:
In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.
Rob - you are conflating different statutes into somthing that is not correct. See discussion threads in the CA section - OC in CA is OK in unincorporated areas, unless a County ordaince says otherwise - vehicles too.
 

Mike

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ConditionThree wrote:
You can open carry an UNLOADED firearm in a belt holster without permit orlicensenearly anywhere in the state except; within 1000ft of a school (PC626.9) , in any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public (PC171b),a State park (CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a)) or National Park (36 C.F.R. 2.4(a)), or in a post office (Sorry, citation absent.).

PC12031 (g)defines what constitutes a loaded firearm
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
OK, thanks - we usually do not track OC of unloaded guns on this board, but in CA, it would appear that this is an important fact to understand when traveling from one unincorp. area to another, thru an incorp. area. A person OCing Israeli style could simply pull the mag out just before entering the incorp. area and be legal - good to know.
 

Rob P.

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Mike wrote:
Rob P. wrote:
In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decenial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.
Rob - you are conflating different statutes into somthing that is not correct. See discussion threads in the CA section - OC in CA is OK in unincorporated areas, unless a County ordaince says otherwise - vehicles too.
You know, I keep doing that on this forum. I think I'm just going to quit opening my pie hole for anything other than pie.
 

ConditionThree

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Rob P. wrote:
You know, I keep doing that on this forum. I think I'm just going to quit opening my pie hole for anything other than pie.
You know, Ron P. there's nothing wrong with that. This has been a learning process for me too, and its taken time to get to the point where I have enough confidence to keep it all straight and exert myself in open carry in whatever form is appropriate. Stick with us. We need all the support we can get.
 

cato

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Mike wrote:
Rob P. wrote:
In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decennial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.
Rob - you are conflating different statutes into something that is not correct. See discussion threads in the CA section - OC in CA is OK in unincorporated areas, unless a County ordinance says otherwise - vehicles too.



I know what you are trying to say but when you say the above (bolded) it can give the wrong impression. OC is generally ok statewide!

I'm not criticizing, I know there are 50 states worth of laws you track! I know you understand this. I just wanted to clarify.

California does not in any statute specifically prohibit openly carried firearms.

What CA law prohibits is:

1) loadedfirearms in specific places (ex: publicareas in incorporated cities and in all other public areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited by law (not just county ordinances);

2)concealed carry of pistols and revolvers (prohibited statewide with exemptions)and;

3)possession (a de facto open carry ban)of all firearms in specific places like school zones, government buildings, and state parks.



 

ConditionThree

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Mike wrote:
I do like the way you say this - however the prohibited places include all the major populated areas!

This is true of a loaded weapon-

I know you really arent interested in open carry of unloaded weapons Mike, but California presents a few challenges. The only prohibitions I am aware of on a unloaded exposedweapon are related to school zones, public buildings, national and state parks.

It's my contention that those inclined to open carry, should continue to open carry their weapons whether or not their sidearm is loaded- but they should comply with the law.... unloaded when they are in a prohibited or incorporated area... and loaded outside prohibited or incorporated area... this includes major populated areas.

I say this, because it is all we have left... just because its inside a straight-jacket, doesnt mean its any less excersize.
 

CaliforniaCarry

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So... if carrying an unloaded handgun is legal, and said handgun isn't legally considered loaded unless there's a loaded magazine in it or a round in the chamber...

... does that mean in CA it's legal to OC an unloaded handgun and carry loaded mags with you? Condition 4?

If this does turn out to be legal, then I might try it sometime. I'm in LA county, so I'm not sure how well it would go over with the locals, but it might be worth a shot. An unloaded gun probably has almost the same deterrence factor that a loaded one would, and carrying in condition 4, however slow and inconvenient it may be, is still better than a gun at home locked in the safe.
 

Rob P.

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It IS possible to carry in Cond 4. There are a couple of "hitches" involved in that which you should be aware of.

First, if you do carry unloaded/exposed be prepared to talk to the cops. A LOT! You'll need to have a card which carries a SHORT summary of the laws including the statute #'s in an accessable place not near the weapon and be positive that you can articulate your cond 4 status and the applicable law in an extremepressure situation with loaded guns pointed at you.

Second, in the eyes of some, having ammo on your person may be considered equal to having a loaded weapon because the ammo is directly under your personal command and/or control. There is some justification for this line of thinking as the courts and legislators have expanded "posession" to include the whole interior of an automobile when discussing drugs being posessed by a person. Following this line of reasoning could mean that "loaded" may also include having ammo on your person if it is in a "ready to be used" state. There was a recent court of appeals decision which touched on the wording regarding "in the magazine" in P.C. 12026(?). The court may conclude that having unexpended rounds in the magazine, whether it is physically in the weapon or in your pocket, is included in the meaning of "loaded". Use a revolver and a speed loader to avoid this issue.

I would recommend that you carry in a manner which imitates LEO. Duty style holsters worn by Detectives, etc. DO NOT go so far as to intimate that you are LEO such as wearing LAPD (or other enforcement agencies) printed on your shirt or hat or carying handcuffs and/or an exposed"Walker, Texas Ranger" badge. Do not wearblack or cammo or anything remotely military. Just carry like a street cop would carry and conduct yourself impeccably. People will assume you are LEO and will not panic when they see you. In other words, LOOK LIKE ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS and not some raving spittle drooling foaming at the mouth rabid lunatic seeking a victim.

Be prepared for the "brandishing" charge or any charge about "intimidation" and/or "public nuisance or danger". Have the number of an atty on you (better, have it memorized) who is willing to represent you when you get arrested. IF you are 100% legit in what you are doing, then you will probably win but it will cost you time, money, and your weapon will be junk when you get it back. To help your case, I would carry without any ammo on my person or in the weapon at first. That way if you do get arrested then you have no possibility of the issue of "loaded" coming up which increases your chances of being acquitted and/or no charges filed. After LEO gets to know you aren't carrying loaded, then you can start to carry in cond 4.

This gives them a chance to acclimate themselves to you before you increase your carry to the limit of the law. I would also recommend that you start small. Open carry to the range and back and stop on the way at the gunstore where they KNOW you and KNOW that you are going to do this. Buy ammo at the range and use it all before you leave. Have NONE on you or in your car. Expand from this base to stopping for a soda at the drive thru where (again) they KNOW you.

Never use words which indicate that you are a nut job. Phrases like "just in case" or "if the S**T hits the fan" or similar. Have a reasonable basis for what you are doing which can be articulated in a calm and calming way. Just repeating "my rights" won't do it so think about what you'd say and run it by some people first to get their opinion. They'll still think you're nuts but at least they won't be afraid of you.
 

cato

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CaliforniaCarry wrote:
So... if carrying an unloaded handgun is legal, and said handgun isn't legally considered loaded unless there's a loaded magazine in it or a round in the chamber...

... does that mean in CA it's legal to OC an unloaded handgun and carry loaded mags with you? Condition 4?





Welcome to the CA forum!!:D

In an incorporated city or prohibited area (per 12031 PC) separate loaded mags are no crime unless engaged in armed criminal (felony)action (12023 PC). The loaded gun definitions for 12023 and 171c & d (government building/meetings - see below*)make it clear that the legislature knows how to define loaded gun to include possession of separate ammo, so that along with the decision in People v Clark make it clear that the 12031 definition doesn't prohibit separate loaded mags or speed loaders.


Spend some time (if you haven't already) reading all the CA posts here and spend some time on calguns.net.

Research and know the laws governing firearm possession/transportation. When and if your ready to OC I'll be happy to meet with you to review your knowledge of the applicable laws and accompany you on your first small outings. I'm a So Cal leoso in the least I'd be a credible witness should police take any unlawful action (ie. false arrest). I can't OC off duty per department regulation so I'd be CCing.

Ina county that only issues Licenses to Carry to politicians and celebrities, OC ammo separate is the only viable option in incorporated areas IMHO.

Also know where the 1000' school zones (626.9 PC) are as conviction is a felony. All theother potential charges are mostly misdemeanors. ConditionThree's posts list the laws you should read.

PM me or post any questions.


*examples: PC 171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections
171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition
capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate
possession of the same person.

*PC 12001. (j) For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed to be
"loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition
capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate
possession of the same person.

Link to PC: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

Link to GREAT So Cal Attorney: http://www.tmllp.com/
These guys can get anyone out of anything related to bogus gun charges (especially with me as a witness!)

Oh and get a good digital audio recorder and read up on 4th amendment rights.
 

ConditionThree

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July 1, 2007



South Redding and Anderson, CA



I carried unloaded and exposed while I got gas at Kent’s market. I held the door open for others entering and someone I know through my work rubber necked as he entered and asked-



“What’s the gun for?”



“Self-protection.”



He chuckled saying “Oh yeah? Is there someone out to get you?”



I replied, “No--- Do you SEE anyone out to get me?”



He asked how work was and I let him know things were slow. I paid for my gas and filled my tank with no other odd looks or commentary.



I drove to Player’s Pizza and Sport Bar, a place that is on one of the main drags in Anderson and a location that I have frequented before the place found new ownership and a new name. There were 6 patrons and 2 employees when I entered. It seems their marketing isn’t drawing much of a weekend lunch crowd. I walked past a table of four, and one rubbernecked a little as I approached the counter. When I got to the counter, it seemed the cashier was a little nervous- He asked how I was doing before I took my order and then again, as he was taking my money. No comments were made about my sidearm by anyone. I took my time eating, half expecting the cashier to have dropped a dime on me to instigate a first-time interaction with law enforcement, however- even dawdling, no police came.
 

ConditionThree

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July 8, 2007



Southeast Redding, CA



Conditions: Sunny and breezy

Temperature: 113 Degrees F



This is exactly the type of day that is not conducive to concealed carry. Oppressive heat disallows any layering of concealment garments or the use of an IWB holster, as they’d be soaked in perspiration- the acidity of which, could (and has) damaged the finish on firearms. A black waist pack out in the summer sun may as well be a sandwich board sign declaring “I have a gun or a camera in the bag, please steal me,” having no retention features whatsoever.

Given the lawful choices available in California I can:



1) Leave it at home, relying on the police and 911 for my safety

2) Carry it in myvehicle with no license to carryin a locked container, unloaded and separate from the ammunition.

3) Carry it concealed in a sweaty holster or a bag that says ‘steal me’ with a license to carry concealed.

4) Carry exposed in a belt holster with no applicable license to carry, paying heed to the specific requirements of PC12025, PC12031, PC626.9 and any other ordinance defining a prohibition relating to thedischarge of firearms.



As you may have surmised, I elected to use method #4 today. I went to a local hamburger joint at the edge of incorporated city limits. With this in mind, I carried unloaded and exposed erring on the side of caution. There was a couple finishing up their food as I entered and two employees working. No strange looks. No comments. The couple left with a nod and eye contact.

The hamburger joint employees did however, screw up my order and burned my onion rings. They were overly apologetic and made more to replace the petrified O’s. A refrigeration service tech entered, oblivious of the armed man in the dining room. After eating, I refilled my soda and left.

Before going home, I dropped into Kent’s Market and got a quart of milk for breakfast tomorrow. 10-12 people populated the small store, no odd looks that I saw and no comments were made.
 

ConditionThree

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July 15, 2007



HBD2M



Went to lunch carrying loaded and exposed at the Branding Iron today. As I arrived two men were walking out and one nearly gave him self whiplash as he noticed I was conspicuously armed. He allowed the door to begin closing before I was through, either due to his dumbfounded state or I suppose, out of malice. The Branding Iron was packed with about 50 customers. I ignored the “Please Wait To Be Seated” sign and made my way to the counter where I ate my lunch. The owner of the restaurant sat at the other end of the counter on my strong side, made no comment even with a “We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service To Anyone” sign clearly displayed.
 

ConditionThree

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July 22, 2007



I had intended to go back to Players Pizza, but when I arrived, there was a notice on the door indicating the new hours. On Sunday they aren’t open until 4pm.



After some deliberation, I drove to the Branding Iron for lunch. I sat on the opposite side of the U shaped counter than I had in the past, placing the restrooms and traffic to and from the auction area behind me. This was more challenging to be fully aware of my surroundings- I wont put myself in this position again. A different waitress served me than my previous visits and other than a glance by one of the other waitresses; my visit was unremarkable until I had finished eating.



My waitress on her way back from a table in the center of the room noticed that I was armed.



OH my GOD-… You’re packin’?



I could feel the dread of a being in the center of a confrontation rising. Her tone almost suggested fear and apprehension. I anticipated a wholesale rejection of my armed state and braced for an attack on my character, alleged absence of manhood, and for there to be a pointed finger poked into my chest. Instead this is the gist of the rest of the conversation as I remember it and what I was able to glean from my digital recorder.



Are you a cop?

“No”, I replied.

What are you?

Just a regular Joe.

“Really?” she said, her tone incredulous and interested.

Can you do that anywhere?

I said, “No.” And I told her in brief terms that this couldn’t be done close to a school or inside city limits.

Then she said something like, “ I like that better than (inaudible).” I can’t make it out on the recording, but I think it might have been ‘cops’, but this is partially biased by what she said later. She went about her duties.

After I paid, she said, “Well I’m glad you’re not a cop”. Perhaps it’s because I usually tip well, but maybe it’s because citizens might trust other citizens more than the overwhelming and untouchable ‘powers that be’. One thing seems certain; the topic of an openly armed citizen will be on the tip of her tongue for the rest of the day.


Edited to add;

4:45pm ish

Took a quick trip to Kent's Market to get a couple of items. In and out with no issues, comments or doubletakes.
 

JSK333

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She may have said "better than concealed." I had a lady say the same thing to me when I was OC'ing. Could tell she didn't like guns in general but she said she'd rather see it than not (i.e., concealed). Seems a good amount of people have this feeling for some reason...
 

CA_Libertarian

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Rob P. wrote:
Apparently I have mentally cross referenced the California F&G prohibition about loaded long arms in vehicles to also prohibit carrying loaded short arms. My apologies for the misinformation. In my defense I have probably done this due to the regulations about the transportation of firearms in Penal Code 12026.1 (The transportation of firearms requires that they be in a locked container in the vehicles trunk.) My thinking on this would be that if the law requires that the weapon be in a locked container while in the vehicle then it cannot be transported on the dashboard or openly on the seat.

I know I'm a little late coming to this thread, but wanted to dispel this myth.

If you continue to read down through 12026.1, you'll find that it says:

(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.

Code:
12025(a)(3) makes it illegal to conceal a firearm in your vehicle. The purpose of this section is to identify a locked container as exempt from this statute. If not for this section, having the weapon in a locked container would be considered a concealed weapon.

That means that 12026.1 does NOT prevent you from carrying the firearm, as long as you are not vioaliting 12025 (concealed) or 12031 (loaded).
 
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