Open Carry in Rural Northern California 2007

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

That means that 12026.1 does NOT prevent you from carrying the firearm, as long as you are not vioaliting 12025 (concealed) or 12031 (loaded).

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Correct.PC 12026.1 is not a "prohibiting" section of the law like PC 12025 (a).

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CA_Libertarian wrote:

Rob P. wrote:

Apparently I have mentally cross referenced the California F&G prohibition about loaded long arms in vehicles to also prohibit carrying loaded short arms. My apologies for the misinformation. In my defense I have probably done this due to the regulations about the transportation of firearms in Penal Code 12026.1 (The transportation of firearms requires that they be in a locked container in the vehicles trunk.) My thinking on this would be that if the law requires that the weapon be in a locked container while in the vehicle then it cannot be transported on the dashboard or openly on the seat.

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I know I'm a little late coming to this thread, but wanted to dispel this myth.

If you continue to read down through 12026.1, you'll find that it says:

(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.

12025(a)(3) makes it illegal to conceal a firearm in your vehicle. The purpose of this section is to identify a locked container as exempt from this statute. If not for this section, having the weapon in a locked container would be considered a concealed weapon.

That means that 12026.1 does NOT prevent you from carrying the firearm, as long as you are not vioaliting 12025 (concealed) or 12031 (loaded).

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Okay.

Allow me to wax hypothetical;

A person carrying their concealable firearm openly in a belt holster gets into their vehicle and drivesto the grocery store. They are in possession of the ammunition in a magazine holder on their belt next to their firearm. There are no schools nearby.

Is this person in violation of any laws? If so, what would they be charged with?

(Yes, Im highjacking my own thread with offtopic material...)

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Ca_Libertarian is doing some interesting things in CA, maybe you two could collaborate...

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openryan wrote:

Ca_Libertarian is doing some interesting things in CA, maybe you two could collaborate...

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That would be wonderful but the distances here are huge. Maybe an annual OC dinner so we could also have a restaurant thread like VA!

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I considered that, but I am not too familiar with CA -- hey at least I tried

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ConditionThree wrote:

A person carrying their concealable firearm openly in a belt holster gets into their vehicle and drives to the grocery store. They are in possession of the ammunition in a magazine holder on their belt next to their firearm. There are no schools nearby.

Is this person in violation of any laws? If so, what would they be charged with?

(Yes, Im highjacking my own thread with offtopic material...)

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This person is not violating any law that I'm aware of.

(And I think this thread was some-what hijacked already... sorry about my part in that.)


Speaking of hijacking... back to the interruption:

cato wrote:

openryan wrote:

Ca_Libertarian is doing some interesting things in CA, maybe you two could collaborate...

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That would be wonderful but the distances here are huge. Maybe an annual OC dinner so we could also have a restaurant thread like VA!

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I think it would be an awesome idea for us to all get together, even if just once a year. For those not in CA, here's a "mapquest" of the distance... 3.5hrs (if traffic isn't too bad).

And I think I'm just getting started... but I'll post that in another thread so we can get back to live action.

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cato wrote:

Mike wrote:

Rob P. wrote:

In California you can carry openly in UNincorporated areas if the county has less than 200,000 residents as of the last decennial census.

You MAY NOT carry a LOADED firearm openly in the incorporated areas or cities. A "loaded" firearm is one which has unexpended round(s) in the chamber of the firearm or in the magazine or cylinder, etc.

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Rob - you are conflating different statutes into something that is not correct. See discussion threads in the CA section - OC in CA is OK in unincorporated areas, unless a County ordinance says otherwise - vehicles too.

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I know what you are trying to say but when you say the above (bolded) it can give the wrong impression. OC is generally ok statewide!

I'm not criticizing, I know there are 50 states worth of laws you track! I know you understand this. I just wanted to clarify.

California does not in any statute specifically prohibit openly carried firearms.

What CA law prohibits is:

1) loadedfirearms in specific places (ex: publicareas in incorporated cities and in all other public areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited by law (not just county ordinances);

2)concealed carry of pistols and revolvers (prohibited statewide with exemptions)and;

3)possession (a de facto open carry ban)of all firearms in specific places like school zones, government buildings, and state parks.

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Thank you CA_libertarian to directing me to this thread, it is very interesting. I'm all for exercising our rights, even if they have been infringed upon already.

Anyhow, I wanted to reopen discussion on this particular part...

What CA law prohibits is:

1) loadedfirearms in specific places (ex: publicareas in incorporated cities and in all other public areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited by law (not just county ordinances);

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Does CA law state you can not discharge a firearm from a public highway? I thought it did, though I can not cite the law.

And if so, then does that mean you can get busted for violation of 12031 if carrying OC loaded while driving on a public highway even if it is in an UNincorporated area?

This is the only thing that I can see as a problem if I play devils advocate.

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-aK- wrote:

Thank you CA_libertarian to directing me to this thread, it is very interesting. I'm all for exercising our rights, even if they have been infringed upon already.

Anyhow, I wanted to reopen discussion on this particular part...

What CA law prohibits is:

1) loadedfirearms in specific places (ex: publicareas in incorporated cities and in all other public areas where discharge of a firearm is prohibited by law (not just county ordinances);

Click to expand...

Does CA law state you can not discharge a firearm from a public highway? I thought it did, though I can not cite the law.

And if so, then does that mean you can get busted for violation of 12031 if carrying OC loaded while driving on a public highway even if it is in an UNincorporated area?

This is the only thing that I can see as a problem if I play devils advocate.

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Yes, it does. The PC you're referencing is 374c and combined with 12031 makes loadedopen carry a no-no on a public street or highway, unless you possess a license to carry,which areexempts carriersunder 12031 (b)(6). This places the unlicensed carrier in the position of unloading their weapon while on the public street or highway and loading it in unicorporated areas where discharge is not prohibited.

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THanks for clarifying. I guess that doesn't apply to you or CA_libertarian but I do have to worry about that.

This is one of those times where I'm not glad I was right.

I go up to the mountains to go camping and shooting. I'm wondering, when the pavement ends and I'm on a national forest dirt "road" or 4x4 trail am I still on a public road?

Whether it is or is not, I'm guessing that it would still be illegal to shoot from the dirt "road" and therefore I, who is not yet licensed to carry, still need to stay unloaded.

I was told once that I need to be a certain distance off of the "road" or dirt bike trail or what have you. I can't find that anywhere either though. Any truth to that?

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-aK- wrote:

THanks for clarifying. I guess that doesn't apply to you or CA_libertarian but I do have to worry about that.

This is one of those times where I'm not glad I was right.

I go up to the mountains to go camping and shooting. I'm wondering, when the pavement ends and I'm on a national forest dirt "road" or 4x4 trail am I still on a public road?

Whether it is or is not, I'm guessing that it would still be illegal to shoot from the dirt "road" and therefore I, who is not yet licensed to carry, still need to stay unloaded.

I was told once that I need to be a certain distance off of the "road" or dirt bike trail or what have you. I can't find that anywhere either though. Any truth to that?

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I have to worry about this too. As of right now I have no CCW or other permit that exempts me from 12031. If I do try to get one, I will probably only use it to exempt myself from 12031.

As for offroading... I'm pretty sure that law only applies to publicly maintained roads. Also, be sure to read up on the restrictions while in state & national forrests.

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August 5, 2007

East Redding

Carried unloaded exposed at Iron Burger. When I arrived, I was the only customer. I placed my order with the very young cashier. Nothing was said about my state of being armed. After I sat, two older ladies entered and ordered. My order came up and I went to the counter to get it. The man on the grill observed that I was armed and made no comment. After draining my soda, I got up again to refill. I didnt see the ladies looking and they made no comment.

The man on the grill took a break after the ladies were served and asked if I was in the other day with 'those guys'- I asked him to clarify. He said the one's with the helicopters... ??? I responded no, the last time I was there while there was a group of men was when the 'Patriot Riders' were in town- riding their harleys for a vet's funeral. Our exchange continued a bit- but in retrospect I believe he was asking if I was a LEO without asking, "Are you an LEO?" He also might have been asking if I were with the NG, as we have had an significant increase in activity at the airport with helicopters, humvees, and 5 ton dump trucks among the traffic. (I dont know how he might come to this conclusion, as I wore a maroon t-shirt and black carhartt jeans- not digital desert fatigues.)

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August 12, 2007 (Part One)



I wont dwell on the non-event, but I did carry loaded and exposed for breakfast at the Branding Iron in Cottonwood. It was packed to the gills with people. No comments or interaction related to my state of being armed.



Dana Drive and Churn Creek Road/ Incorporated City of Redding



I unloaded and drove into Redding to get my haircut at kwik kuts. Before I got to the door I received a phone call from my sister- this placed me on the sidewalk in front of the store for 4 or 5 minutes before I entered. I signed in for my haircut at 10:38am and when I turned to sit I noticed a man about 35-45, short dark hair, sunglasses, dark polo shirt and jeans standing next to a vehicle- facing the window trying to be discrete just before I sat down to wait my turn. He gave every impression that he was waiting to see what was going to happen ‘next’. At this same time, one of the male customer waiting got up and approached the woman seated directly to my left and said, “I’m going to go call ‘Dave’.” A second customer got up and exited to return a few moments later. These events may have played a part in what would follow nearly 20 minutes later.



Three City of Redding Police officers contacted me as I was walking towards the FoodMaxx grocery store. This is how the contact transpired, as best as I can transcribe it.







1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Hey, excuse me.

ConditionThree: Yeah?

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Can I talk to you over here real quick?

ConditionThree: Yeah, sure.

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: What’s going on today? (Inaudible)

ConditionThree: I’m sorry?

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: What are you wearing that for?

ConditionThree: You mean with the firearm?

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Yes.

ConditionThree: It’s for self-protection

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Do you got id with you?

ConditionThree: Yes.

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Can I see it?

ConditionThree: I’m not driving a motor vehicle

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Id like to know who I’m talking to.

I pull out my wallet-

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Do you have a concealed weapons permit?

ConditionThree: I have a license to carry. Yes.

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: You have that with you

ConditionThree: Yes I do.

I dig into my wallet intending only to get one of the business cards I had printed up with my name and phone number on it, touting SCOCA, however I inadvertently pulled out my CDL as well. This was not exactly as I had planned. Things were cool up to this point- the tenor of events changes when the 2[suP]nd[/suP] officer interjects.

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Thank you

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: You still live on Churn Creek?

ConditionThree: Yes I do

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: Is there a round in the chamber, sir?

ConditionThree: It’s not loaded.

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: I didn’t ask you that, I asked if there is a round in the chamber

ConditionThree: If there was a round in the chamber (2[suP]nd[/suP] officer interrupts) it would be loaded.

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: (voice raised): Listen. Hold on. Hold on. Listen, you need to be a little cooler with us. Okay? I’m not here to debate you rights or anything like that. I’m here to make sure you’re safe and I’m safe. Because, your hand next to that gun is not making me feel real comfortable. I’m asking a very simple question, if there is a round in the chamber, the answer is yes or no.

ConditionThree: The answer is no, there is not a round in the chamber (2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer interrupts before I’m finished.)

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: Can I check it?

ConditionThree: Yes, you can inspect my firearm. (I comply as 12031 makes it possible for the officer to arrest me under suspicion of having a loaded firearm if I refuse this search.)

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: Interlace your fingers behind your head

I comply.

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: Is it a triple threat?

ConditionThree: Yes, you need to pull it inboard. (2[suP]nd[/suP] officer cranks on the grip of my firearm attempting to free it from my retention holster.) More inboard. Towards my buttocks. You have to twist it inboard toward my buttocks. There you go. (In all, he made 5 attempts with verbal instructions from the wearer on how to pull my sidearm clear of the holster before he was successful.)



1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Now do you have a concealed weapons permit other than the open carry card you gave me?

ConditionThree: I have a license to carry concealed, yes.

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: Do you have it with you?

ConditionThree: Yes

1[suP]st[/suP] Officer: That I would like to see.

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: Go ahead and relax, sir. (Sure- I’m relaxed now that you’re sure I am disarmed.) I dig my wallet out and hand the first officer my license to carry.

2[suP]nd[/suP] Officer: You understand what we are getting at? You understand what we are getting at? (Yes, he says it twice for emphasis.) Concerning…(inaudible as third officer uses radio.)



In this part of the recording, it’s difficult to hear everything that was said. There is an abundance of background noise like shopping carts rattling, a child a few feet away, a woman talking- there’s a lot of crossover. This is however, where the ‘we-aren’t-telling-you-can’t-do-it-but-it-would-make-us-happier-if-you-didn’t‘ lecture begins.

I will post the rest once I transcribe whatI can hear of the remaining 8 minutes. Some of the more interesting comments come just before the end. Sorry for the cliff hanger. But of course, you already know how it ends.

(I'm not writing this post-mortem or from a taxpayer paidinternet connection from inside a booking room or jailcell.)

:monkey



Part Two

2nd Officer: You have every right to protect yourself, okay? It’s just not very common for (Inaudible) to roll around in the city dressed the way you’re dressed…
ConditionThree: It doesn’t have anything to do with how I’m dressed. It’s how I’m armed.
2nd Officer: You’re armed. (Inaudible) It’s concerning. All right?
That’s where we are right now.
1:40:26
3rd Officer: She says he’s clear and he’s got a CCW.
1st Officer: You understand there are other ways to carry a handgun with you?
ConditionThree: Yeah, I understand there are other ways to carry the weapon.
1st Officer: A little less, uh… concerning for youngsters, and people that aren’t aware of all the…(audio trailing off)
ConditionThree: Did someone call?
1st Officer: Yeah. That’s why we are here, someone called us.

1st Officer: Several people called us in fact so…(audio trails off)
Especially if there’s no badge or anything like that, most people that are in law enforcement wear them while doing an investigation or something. (Inaudible) magazine in the gun which (inaudible) …see?
ConditionThree: (inaudible)…. compliant with the law?

1st Officer: Absolutely, no one said you’re not. But when we ask you these things we have the legal right to be here, legal right to insure that its held the right way, in the right manner, out of ???

1st Officer: You should say those things to us a little different. You don’t need to jump into an attitude system. You know what I mean?
ConditionThree: I was kind of concerned that you know uh with having three officers that have their hands on their firearms, the tension level was brought up quite a bit…(and my rights might be in jeopardy.)
1st Officer: Absolutely.
2nd Officer: That’s what happens. This is what will continue to happen. I’m not telling you can’t do this, but the attention you’re drawing to yourself, wearing it like you’re wearing it, is the attention you got. Not only from officers but (inaudible) too.
1st Officer: They will probably call all the time if they saw it.
1:42:19
1st Officer: I think it might be easier if you have a concealed weapons permit to conceal it on your person or in your vehicle however you want to do it in a ways you know you’re allowed to, okay? That might be a little bit easier deal so you’re not constantly stopped by police, sheriff’s department, or highway patrol, or…
ConditionThree: This is the first time since (I started)last September that I’ve been stopped.
1st Officer: Is that how you carry it everyday?
ConditionThree: Not everyday. No. About once a week on the weekends.
1st Officer: Just to do it, or?
(Inaudible- I even forgot what my response was.)
1st Officer: Is this the first time it was issued? (refering to my LTC)January of last year?
ConditionThree: No, I’ve had a license since ‘93 or ‘94
2nd Officer: Shasta county open carry association?
UNK: It’s probably one of those, uh...
1st Officer: It’s not a county issued thing.
2nd Officer: Is it your club? How many you got?
ConditionThree: Just me, for now.
Someone laughs.
UNK: It always starts that way
1st Officer: Every club starts as one, right?

There is a pause.
2nd Officer: I was telling my partner on the way over here I had a guy at WinCo last summer. Remember this? With a .45 on his hip like you have right now, the problem was it was loaded. Three people called in from the parking lot. (The exact story is inaudible, but he goes on with his anecdote of a man going into the grocery store to order a pizza, having forgotten he was visibly armed, who turned out to be under the influence and a felon in possession.)
ConditionThree: That’s a bad day.
2nd Officer: That’s why (inaudible). Having a call like this, it’s just not common.
1:44:34
2nd Officer: This isn’t 1885 anymore.
ConditionThree: Actually crime is worse now.
1st Officer: You’re right.
2nd Officer: This isn’t a common practice
1st Officer: It’s not illegal; it’s just not common

3rd officer: (partially paraphrased) I’m just trying to get your information so you know you talked to us and who you talked with, and that its clear that you’ve done nothing illegal. And well log it out that so everything is actually right…simple as that. So if we get another call, someone else calls on you, the dispatch will know we already talked to this guy.

ConditionThree: When they get a man with a gun call, they don’t ask any questions, they just dispatch it out to you guys, is that correct?
1st Officer: No, they uh…the way I was dispatched to this call there was a subject, they described you, dark hair, goatee, red shirt, black pants, wearing a duty belt with a sidearm on it, by kwik kuts, wasn’t acting suspicious, and making statements or threats, they thought it was a little disconcerting, someone with a handgun and no badge walking in to get a haircut nonchalantly, as you were I’m sure. That is how I was dispatched.

(He also goes on to tell me that one caller observed that there was no magazine in the well, which suggests that they were close enough to observe and were fairly familiar with firearms.)

3rd Officer: What’s your phone number?
ConditionThree: Uh. What do you need my phone number for?
3rd Officer: F.I. card
ConditionThree: F.I.? (Uh yeah, hello? I’m not ‘on the job’.)
3rd Officer: Field interview card
ConditionThree: It’s on the card I already gave you. It’s my cell
3rd Officer: So, you one of those federalist guys? Is that what the deal is?
ConditionThree: Federalist?
3rd Officer: Yeah. Where you read up on all your rights and you go and try and get the police to…
ConditionThree: Uhm…
3rd Officer: Know what I’m talking about?
ConditionThree: I’m not here to instigate any response from anybody. If you want to keep that, it’s fine.

1st Officer: That’s yours. (Handing my cards back.) It’s your right. You’re doing everything legal. Understand you may get additional calls on you. I would just suggest (saying) “Hey, I have a concealed weapons permit I’m doing everything legal.” It will be a quick and easy turnaround for you. All right?
ConditionThree: Sure.
1st Officer: okay sir, Have a good day
ConditionThree: Thanks for being polite guys.

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I'm really surprised they didn't have you at gunpoint. Sounds like the guy was being a dick, but if he's that scared, I can see why he wanted a simple yes or no answer. I'm certain he didn't know he could demand to inspect it, or I'm sure he wouldn't have asked (he would have demanded).

I wouldn't have given him any verbal instructions on taking the gun out of the holster until he asked. Something about making him ask... I guess it would be humbling in a way.

Look forward to hearing the rest. Glad you're safe.

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ah-hah... Now we are getting to the interesting part of the movie.

SOOOOO......

What happened next?

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So are you allowed to carry ammunition in another pocket? I'm kinda confused on non-incorporated carry in Cali.

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unrequited wrote:

So are you allowed to carry ammunition in another pocket? I'm kinda confused on non-incorporated carry in Cali.

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Short answer is, yes. There are two prevailing definitions of what constitutes a loaded firearm in California. One only applies if a felony is being commited, the other applies to public places in general.

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ConditionThree,

I'm not sure if this is your style, but writing a letter to their department commending them for knowing the laws and generally acting in an agreeable manner will go a long way toward "making friends and influencing people" within that department.

Officers rarely get commendations from the general public so when one is received it is put in their file as an "atta boy" and sometimes posted in briefing for others to see (and write funny or rude/funny comments on). This would be a way for others, not on that shift, to learn about you in a positive way.

Yes, a 12031 check (loaded in prohibited area check), is 4th Amend. unconstitutional, but until challenged it stands.

I would say you now have standing to challenge itas you were required by law to comply.

Just a thought.

cato



Go Ron!

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cato wrote:

ConditionThree,

I...a 12031 check (loaded in prohibited area check), is 4th Amend. unconstitutional, but until challenged it stands.

I would say you now have standing to challenge itas you were required by law to comply.

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This would be a great opportunity, if you were so inclined.

If you do want to entertain the idea more, let's make another thread where we can discuss this without derailing this one too badly.

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this actually sounds like it went very well, I'm kind of interested in getting the police report from this encounter if there is one... since I live in shasta county also could I join the open carry association? keep up the public education and hopefully more will join the ranks

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The only "report" that would have occurred here is called a "CAD" entry (I don't know what that means but that is what it is called - perhaps Computer _________ Data? Basically every time the police are called dispatch starts a computer record of the call and all events including the reporting persons information (if given), a description of the reason for the call, which officers were dispatched and when they arrived. At the conclusion of the call, the lead officer gives a disposition to end the "CAD log"such as "1 arrested, cited, advised, no crime, unable to locate, sent on way, etc...as well as the names (if given)of any persons contacted etc...

As this was a "no crime" call there will most likely be nothing written except for the computer log and recorded radio traffic.

And do join the Shasta County Open Carry Association while there are still board/founding member slots open!