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Thread: Signage

  1. #1
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    So yesterday afternoon (Sunday) I stopped by one of the casinos I haven't been to in a while. This is the Drift on Inn Roadhouse casino on highway 99 at approximately 173rd in Shoreline.

    This particular casino is 18 and over with a very small bar area that is restricted to 21+.

    Posted on the outside door is a Washington state no firearms sign. (the one bars are, I think, required to post). This sign was also posted inside. Additionally, on the same front door a sign reads that 18 year olds are welcome. Obviously it is not against the law to have a weapon inside the casino area as it is not 21+.

    Is it legal to display the official Washington state law saying it is a violation of law to bring a gun in?

    ps. I carried anyway (of course--since it is legal). I always choose to carry concealed in casinos anyway as the seating is not very conducive to good retention and being able to watch your surroundings.

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    joshmmm wrote:
    So yesterday afternoon (Sunday) I stopped by one of the casinos I haven't been to in a while. This is the Drift on Inn Roadhouse casino on highway 99 at approximately 173rd in Shoreline.

    This particular casino is 18 and over with a very small bar area that is restricted to 21+.

    Posted on the outside door is a Washington state no firearms sign. (the one bars are, I think, required to post). This sign was also posted inside. Additionally, on the same front door a sign reads that 18 year olds are welcome. Obviously it is not against the law to have a weapon inside the casino area as it is not 21+.

    Is it legal to display the official Washington state law saying it is a violation of law to bring a gun in?

    ps. I carried anyway (of course--since it is legal). I always choose to carry concealed in casinos anyway as the seating is not very conducive to good retention and being able to watch your surroundings.
    It is legal for them to display that sign as the RCW on it refers to only those places of an establishement that are off limits to persons under 21 as determined by the state liquor control board.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Also, if it's a casino that's owned by those of American Indian descent, then they may be allowed to define those laws outside of WA state laws, as they are supposedly a "seperate nation", yet get federal funding and don't have to go through customs to "enter" our country. I've always had an issue with the double standard there, but I won't get into it here, as it has little to do with the question.

    So, I'd check to see if casinos on reservations or owned by American Indians are exempt from state pre-emption. I highly doubt it, but I've heard of other situations where some weird federal agreement gave them rights that no one else in the state was permitted on frivilous reasoning.
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    just_a_car wrote:
    Also, if it's a casino that's owned by those of American Indian descent, then they may be allowed to define those laws outside of WA state laws, as they are supposedly a "seperate nation", yet get federal funding and don't have to go through customs to "enter" our country. I've always had an issue with the double standard there, but I won't get into it here, as it has little to do with the question.

    So, I'd check to see if casinos on reservations or owned by American Indians are exempt from state pre-emption. I highly doubt it, but I've heard of other situations where some weird federal agreement gave them rights that no one else in the state was permitted on frivilous reasoning.
    They are only allowed to define laws outside the RCW's to the point that the are only applicable to the tribal members. Typically the only recourse they have with non-tribal people are that they, the tribal courts,can exclude unwanted persons from thier land.
    Now if I was to go in and break a tribal law then the tribal courts can have me trespassed from thier land but they can not hold me criminally liable unless it is a washington state law that I have broken on tribal land. They would then detain me and turn me over to a state agency.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    This is a non-tribal casino located in the CITY of Shoreline just north of Seattle.

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    joeroket wrote:
    They are only allowed to define laws outside the RCW's to the point that the are only applicable to the tribal members. Typically the only recourse they have with non-tribal people are that they, the tribal courts,can exclude unwanted persons from thier land.
    Now if I was to go in and break a tribal law then the tribal courts can have me trespassed from thier land but they can not hold me criminally liable unless it is a washington state law that I have broken on tribal land. They would then detain me and turn me over to a state agency.
    Ah, okay. I figured that was the case, but hadn't looked into the specifics.
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    just_a_car wrote:
    Also, if it's a casino that's owned by those of American Indian descent, then they may be allowed to define those laws outside of WA state laws, as they are supposedly a "seperate nation", yet get federal funding and don't have to go through customs to "enter" our country. I've always had an issue with the double standard there, but I won't get into it here, as it has little to do with the question.

    So, I'd check to see if casinos on reservations or owned by American Indians are exempt from state pre-emption. I highly doubt it, but I've heard of other situations where some weird federal agreement gave them rights that no one else in the state was permitted on frivilous reasoning.
    According to th Washington State Liquor Board it is illegal for that sign to be posted on the door of an establishment that allows under 21 in. At least that was there attitude when I contacted them about the sames situation here in Mason County. Within 5 days the sign was gone.

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    I filed an online complaint with the liquor control board asking them to please contact the establishment and have the misleading signage removed. I also asked them to provide the RCW or WAC addressing the posting of the sign.

    I'll let you know if I hear anything.

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    joshmmm wrote:
    I filed an online complaint with the liquor control board asking them to please contact the establishment and have the misleading signage removed. I also asked them to provide the RCW or WAC addressing the posting of the sign.

    I'll let you know if I hear anything.
    Actually the info is in Workman's book on carrying in Washington (I forget the title) and the book is at another location. I used the telephone and got the right guy on the line and explained to him the situation and he said he would be out in a few days to correct the situation. He did what he said too. FYI, I went to High School at Shoreline (back in the Dark ages, the 60's)and I can remember when that casino did not exist.

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    I've read through a lot of information on the requirements to post that sign, but I have not yet found a section outlining when/where you can't post the sign.

    It is likely just some generic rule stating that you can't use an official sign to disseminate false information. I doubt the liquor control board bothered to write a rule (hopefully I am wrong) stating that its signs must be used in X, but are forbidden to be used in Y.

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    joshmmm wrote:
    I've read through a lot of information on the requirements to post that sign, but I have not yet found a section outlining when/where you can't post the sign.

    It is likely just some generic rule stating that you can't use an official sign to disseminate false information. I doubt the liquor control board bothered to write a rule (hopefully I am wrong) stating that its signs must be used in X, but are forbidden to be used in Y.
    Going off memory (a dangerous thing at my age) the sign is to be posted at the entrances to areas where anyone under 21 is not allowed and no where else.

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    Hello! Long time lurker, and even longer supprter of RKBA.

    I am not a lawyer, but I have undertaken extensive legal study. I work in a regulatory capacity for a tribe that has a large casino north of Seattle.

    That said, the tribes are sovereign to an extent. They are domestic dependant sovereignities. The reservation is federal, but the natives make most of the rules. Fortunately, the rules they adopt tend to mostly go in line with laws we are already familiar with (ie. RCWs). Otherwise the U.S. Constitution is still the law of the land they are treatied with (despite what they might think, they are a conquered nation).

    Most of the tribes have a code that says in effect that youare legal to do go about your business armed, unless you are not normally legal. Not sure about OC, but the natives typically have a rural mindset mixed with being used tohaving their rights jacked with.

    The casinos, however, are an offlimits area per the WSLCB. The whole gaming floor is a bar, that is why you can order and drink at the machines/tables. Persons under 21 are not allowed in except to pass through to the restaurants/restrooms.

    I personally don't OC (unless in the woods) as I prefer to keep my armed status to myself until I want it to be known, but I do CCW from time to time.

    HAving come into LE in the early '90s, I had always thought that OC was verboten and so I've always approached it from a "concealed means concealed" standpoint. This site has made me aware of some things I was unaware of.

    I applaud the passion with which Lonnie and some of you others have undertaken this cause. I now wait for the day when 'mexican carry' is not villianized!

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    IIRC, the way the law states it... even if a business won't allow you in unless you are 21... it is only unlawful to carry if it is classified off limits to under 21 BY THE STATE LIQUOR BOARD.

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    devldogs55 wrote:
    IIRC, the way the law states it... even if a business won't allow you in unless you are 21... it is only unlawful to carry if it is classified off limits to under 21 BY THE STATE LIQUOR BOARD.
    Yup, but a business can "Reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" and can cite you for tresspassing if you are asked to leave and refuse.

    That's a good clarification, though, that I'm sure some people miss.
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    >IIRC, the way the law states it... even if a business won't allow you in unless you >are 21... it is only unlawful to carry if it is classified off limits to under 21 BY THE >STATE LIQUOR BOARD

    Ok, my mistake. When I said the casino floor is an "offlimits area per WSLCB", I should have said the area is classified as off limits to persons under 21 years of age per the Washington State Liqour Control Board. Now thathave clarified that matter...

    The WSLCB (!) is involved in the casino's alcohol sales via the Tribal/State compact. It is the agreement thatspells out what type of gaming, the hours, the rules, thenumber of games allowed, etc, etc.

    One of theissues that was agreed upon, was taht the tribes would be allowed gaming and liqour sales, provided they abide by the state laws. This is why last call is still at0130 and drinks are removed by 0200 hrs. I can assure you that if they thought they could sell longer, they would.

    Anyway, theshort answers to the indian casino question are:Yes, they are an offlimits area (unless you areLEO); Yes, you can be charged with a crime (court of jurisdictionwill depend upon whether or not you are a tribal member. The "white cops" (ie. muni, county, State) will be called if you are not. You may or may not be permanently banned from the gaming facilities (depends on the person responding, and what the demeanor of the person they meet is).

    Hmmm...that wasn't so short I guess. I'll be happy to discuss it further as long as it stays civil and on-topic. I love this forum!

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    Just to bring itback to the topic... we are talking about a NON-tribal casino. It is no different than a Denny's posting the sign that should be on the door to the lounge on the outside of the front door.

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    joshmmm wrote:
    Just to bring itback to the topic... we are talking about a NON-tribal casino. It is no different than a Denny's posting the sign that should be on the door to the lounge on the outside of the front door.
    Right, and in the instance of The Drift on Inn it would be, I think it was said previous also, legal to carry in the non-controlled portion of the establishment. It is no different then an establishment that serves you liquor at your table in the family dining area. Typically the notice is supposed to be placed at the entrance to the area that is off limits to persons under 21.

    Does the Drift on Inn ever have times that only person 21 or older are allowed to enter? There are a few that I know of up in Sno Co. that have family dining until 9PM then it becomes 21 and over until 2AM.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    joshmmm wrote:
    So yesterday afternoon (Sunday) I stopped by one of the casinos I haven't been to in a while. This is the Drift on Inn Roadhouse casino on highway 99 at approximately 173rd in Shoreline.

    This particular casino is 18 and over with a very small bar area that is restricted to 21+.

    Posted on the outside door is a Washington state no firearms sign. (the one bars are, I think, required to post). This sign was also posted inside. Additionally, on the same front door a sign reads that 18 year olds are welcome. Obviously it is not against the law to have a weapon inside the casino area as it is not 21+.

    Is it legal to display the official Washington state law saying it is a violation of law to bring a gun in?

    ps. I carried anyway (of course--since it is legal). I always choose to carry concealed in casinos anyway as the seating is not very conducive to good retention and being able to watch your surroundings.
    It is legal for them to display that sign as the RCW on it refers to only those places of an establishement that are off limits to persons under 21 as determined by the state liquor control board.
    The Drift is probaly following the instructions of their local Gaming Agent. There is the same sign at the door of both the mini casinos i go to. Both allow 18year olds.I would be very interested in more info on this subject.

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