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Thread: Maple Valley Parks

  1. #1
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I was at Maple Valley's Lake Wilderness park a week or so ago and came across a sign that, among other things, prohibited firearms (no distinctions or exceptions were made). I am anxious to sent a letter to their parks department. I'd like some feedback before I push send on this thing.

    ***

    To whom it may concern:

    I am writing concerning a sign I saw at the Lake Wilderness Park in Maple Valley on Saturday, June 2, 2007.

    The sign relays the basics of Maple Valley ordinance 7.05, Rules Governing Use Of City Parks. The part that specifically caught my attention was in specific regards to 7.05.050 which addresses the possession of weapons and firearms.

    My first concern is that the sign simply states that possession of any firearm or weapon is not allowed. Upon reviewing the actual city ordinance, I see that it clarifies that an appropriate concealed weapons permit is required for carry of a firearm. While this is a step better, it is still problematic.

    The problem lies in the fact that Washington Sate holds preemption on all laws regarding firearms including carrying them. According to RCW 9.41.290 and 9.41.300, cities, towns and counties are allowed to enact laws that restrict the discharge of weapons and possession in stadiums and convention centers, but nothing more restrictive than that. They may enact laws that are as restrictive as state law, but not more so.

    The concern with the Maple Valley ordinance 7.05.050 is that it is more restrictive than what state law allows (see RCW 9.41.050 and 9.41.270). RCW 9.41.290 specifically states that, "Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality." Thus, you are advertising a law that is "preempted and repealed" and consequently of no force.

    With 7.05.050 being invalid, advertising it to the public is confusing and misleading. With that in mind, I am requesting you to please remove that line from the signs.

    Sincerely,
    Ethan Bratt

    ***

    Any thoughts or feedback?


    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  2. #2
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    I like it! I'd say you're good to go for sending it in... but that's just my personal not-a-lawyer opinion. ;-)
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    The picnic point beach in mukilteo has a similar sign and there are some trails in king county that have a sign that just says "no firearms" and a refference to a KCO. This letter might be nice to send on to them as well.

  4. #4
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I have no problems with you adapting the letter if that is what you are interested in. Not having seen the sign and consequently not knowing what ordinance they are citing, I can't adapt and send it for you.

    Actually, I was really hoping that if we can come up with a good version of a parks letter we can upload it to the files section in a "drafts" folder for future use.

    Ethan
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  5. #5
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    Hello I am new to the forum,
    I had a chat with the Mukilteo PD on fire arm in the parks. He was very steadfast no guns in the parks period!! I called the state capital. I forward this email to the Mulk. police dept. Mr. Bill Forth said that they can't do that. If you have a concealed pistol permit then you can carry. I don't about open carry. This law applies to Maple valley also.
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Its a nice feeling to tell the police they are wrong and we are right.
    The following is the email I got from fire arm dept. in Olympia.

    Dear ******,:celebrate

    Attached is Washington's firearm laws. You will want to look at RCW 9.41.290-State preemption and RCW 9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places - local laws and ordinances - Exemptions - Penalty.
    Feel free to call me if you have further questions. My number is 360-664-6622.
    Bill Forth, Program Manager
    Firearms Unit

  6. #6
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    You contacted the police as your primary and only source of the legality of this action?

    Other than that good first post , and welcome to the forum, great place to learn a lot here!

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    phone guy wrote:
    Hello I am new to the forum,
    I had a chat with the Mukilteo PD on fire arm in the parks. He was very steadfast no guns in the parks period!! I called the state capital. I forward this email to the Mulk. police dept. Mr. Bill Forth said that they can't do that. If you have a concealed pistol permit then you can carry. I don't about open carry. This law applies to Maple valley also.
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Its a nice feeling to tell the police they are wrong and we are right.
    The following is the email I got from fire arm dept. in Olympia.

    Dear ******,:celebrate

    Attached is Washington's firearm laws. You will want to look at RCW 9.41.290-State preemption and RCW 9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places - local laws and ordinances - Exemptions - Penalty.
    Feel free to call me if you have further questions. My number is 360-664-6622.
    Bill Forth, Program Manager
    Firearms Unit
    PM me on this issue. I have time tommorow and I will address Mukilteo forthwith.

    Regards,

    Lonnie Wilson

  8. #8
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    Code:
    Hello every one again, this is the email I receved this morning.
    What more can I say!
    
    Mr. *****, Thank you for your email.  You are correct, the preemption
    portion of the State law makes it appear that the City of Mukilteo law
    regarding prohibiting firearms in the parks does not apply to those who
    have a valid concealed weapons permit and are abiding by their permit.
    I apologize for having given you incorrect information.  I will make
    sure this information is passed on to my Officers as well as to City
    Hall.
    Thank you again,
    
    Chuck Macklin
    Mukilteo PD
    10500-47th Place West
    Mukilteo WA, 98275
    (425) 353-8222

  9. #9
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    Thats a start. He still seems a little uninformed. Mukilteo cannot keep that ordinance as it is still in violation of the pre-emption. Parks are not one of the exceptions giving to local municipalities. Therefore the law is invalid and should be removed completely.
    He is reading that any laws that the city makesdo not apply to CPL holders. He needs to re-read it and understand that the park prohibition does not fall under the authority givin to the city by the state.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  10. #10
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    [sarcasm on]Isn't it wonderful? The number of Police Officers that are totally unaware of the Law. Current Law regarding the carry of firearms has only been in effect since 1994. After 13 years they still are unaware of State Preemption.

    Sounds like there should be Remedial Education for those Officers and Command Staff that clearly don't have a working knowlege of the Law.

    From the Washington State Constitution:

    " SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men."

    Notice the absence of the term "Militia". It is an individual right here in Washington and yet many Police Departments and/or Officers don't recognize it.


    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  11. #11
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    phone guy wrote:
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Tribal laws are just that. Laws for the tribe. They are not enforceable on non-tribal members. The only recourse that a tribe council has on non-tribal individuals, if a Washington State Law has not been broken, is to trespass you from tribal land. If you violate a state law the can and will detain you until you can be turned over to a local agency, usually a County or the State.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    joeroket wrote:
    phone guy wrote:
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Tribal laws are just that. Laws for the tribe. They are not enforceable on non-tribal members. The only recourse that a tribe council has on non-tribal individuals, if a Washington State Law has not been broken, is to trespass you from tribal land. If you violate a state law the can and will detain you until you can be turned over to a local agency, usually a County or the State.
    Some tribes, the Tulalip Tribe for example, honors Washington CPL's for Non-Indians.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  13. #13
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    amlevin wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    phone guy wrote:
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Tribal laws are just that. Laws for the tribe. They are not enforceable on non-tribal members. The only recourse that a tribe council has on non-tribal individuals, if a Washington State Law has not been broken, is to trespass you from tribal land. If you violate a state law the can and will detain you until you can be turned over to a local agency, usually a County or the State.
    Some tribes, the Tulalip Tribe for example, honors Washington CPL's for Non-Indians.
    ?????

    There are some that say they do not honor a CPL? Hmmmm I wonder how they get away with that. They certainly have no legal authority over me outside of Wa. laws.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  14. #14
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    joeroket wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    phone guy wrote:
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Tribal laws are just that. Laws for the tribe. They are not enforceable on non-tribal members. The only recourse that a tribe council has on non-tribal individuals, if a Washington State Law has not been broken, is to trespass you from tribal land. If you violate a state law the can and will detain you until you can be turned over to a local agency, usually a County or the State.
    Some tribes, the Tulalip Tribe for example, honors Washington CPL's for Non-Indians.
    ?????

    There are some that say they do not honor a CPL? Hmmmm I wonder how they get away with that. They certainly have no legal authority over me outside of Wa. laws.
    Their land, their laws, their choice. Or detainment until County or State authorities take custody.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Email sent advising of the preemption statute, and advising of open carry.

    Two for one punch.

  16. #16
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    Well, I sent off the letter with a couple of minor adjustments to the Maple Valley Parks Director and then forwarded a copy to the PD chief (I told the Parks Director I was doing that) with a note about this issue's significance to LE personnel who may be called upon by parks personnel to enforce an illegal ordinance.

    I'll let you all know how it turns out.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  17. #17
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    Email sent advising of the preemption statute, and advising of open carry.

    Two for one punch.
    Awesome Lonnie! It'll be good to know another So. Snohomish Co. city will be 'safe' for those who wish to keep it safe. :celebrate

    I'm sorry I'll miss you this Saturday, but from the sounds of it, you may be in a much more... 'intense?'... lunch down in Portland, if you think you're going to need a video camera and audio equipment.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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  18. #18
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    amlevin wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    amlevin wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    phone guy wrote:
    The only way the law is different and that s on tribal land. They are a sovereign nation.
    Tribal laws are just that. Laws for the tribe. They are not enforceable on non-tribal members. The only recourse that a tribe council has on non-tribal individuals, if a Washington State Law has not been broken, is to trespass you from tribal land. If you violate a state law the can and will detain you until you can be turned over to a local agency, usually a County or the State.
    Some tribes, the Tulalip Tribe for example, honors Washington CPL's for Non-Indians.
    ?????

    There are some that say they do not honor a CPL? Hmmmm I wonder how they get away with that. They certainly have no legal authority over me outside of Wa. laws.
    Their land, their laws, their choice. Or detainment until County or State authorities take custody.
    I beg to differ. SCOTUS has ruled that tribes do not have criminal jurisdiction over non-tribal members.

    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...5&page=191
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  19. #19
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    In case anyone is still interested in the original topic of this thread, I spoke with Maple Valley Parks Director Greg Brown a few minutes ago. I realize it has only been a couple days, but I wanted to check in. I called and indicated that as I hadn't heard back yet, I wanted to make sure that the email did arrive.

    He was very polite and indicated that he had reviewed the email, spoken with the police chief (who also received a copy), and has forwarded the matter to the city attorney for review. He indicated that as soon as he hears back from the attorney, he'll get back in touch with me.

    Sounds promising so far.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  20. #20
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    Thats good. At least we know he is taking the right action and did not just ignore it.

    Way to keep on the ball and make them accountable.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

  21. #21
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    eBratt wrote:
    In case anyone is still interested in the original topic of this thread, I spoke with Maple Valley Parks Director Greg Brown a few minutes ago. I realize it has only been a couple days, but I wanted to check in. I called and indicated that as I hadn't heard back yet, I wanted to make sure that the email did arrive.

    He was very polite and indicated that he had reviewed the email, spoken with the police chief (who also received a copy), and has forwarded the matter to the city attorney for review. He indicated that as soon as he hears back from the attorney, he'll get back in touch with me.

    Sounds promising so far.
    Good to hear eBratt.

    I've only been in Maple Valley a few times, when going on relaxation drives around the sound. Run up the hill past the hospital and continue down the street into the boonies of the Renton Highlands until it meets the Maple Valley highway, then grab the highway back to Renton/405 and back home to Edmonds.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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  22. #22
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I spoke with the Parks rep a few weeks ago. He said he still hasn't heard back from the city attorney, so waited a couple of weeks and called the city attorney's office today.

    He had stepped out but his assistant asked if she could help. I was very polite and explained that I was trying to follow up on a matter that was forwarded by email to him by the parks rep. I explained the basic points of the Maple Valley ordinance being more restrictive than state law.

    I explained that I realized the CA was a busy person, but I did not want this to get forgotten about. I left my phone and my email and asked her to please have him follow up with me by either means and let me know the status of this as quickly as possible.

    I'll call back in two days if I haven't heard anything.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  23. #23
    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I called back today and the admin to the city attorney didn't know why he hadn't gotten back to me. So I left another request that he get back in touch.

    Apparently two calls in as many days was enough to motivate him. I just got an email back from the director of Maple Valley's Parks and Recreation Department indicating that the city attorney has made suggestions for the change of city municipal code to bring it in line with state law. The park signs will be changed by the end of the year (probably so that they can make sure they change them to be in accordance with however the law is rewritten).

    So, count this one a victory! I'll check back in about 4 months to see if the code has indeed been revised.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

  24. #24
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    eBratt wrote:
    I called back today and the admin to the city attorney didn't know why he hadn't gotten back to me. So I left another request that he get back in touch.

    Apparently two calls in as many days was enough to motivate him. I just got an email back from the director of Maple Valley's Parks and Recreation Department indicating that the city attorney has made suggestions for the change of city municipal code to bring it in line with state law. The park signs will be changed by the end of the year (probably so that they can make sure they change them to be in accordance with however the law is rewritten).

    So, count this one a victory! I'll check back in about 4 months to see if the code has indeed been revised.
    Great work!

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