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Thread: WA - Spokane man involved in fatal shooting says it was in self-defense

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Actually, what I am most impressed by this article is the flat reporting of the case. It's very neutral, IMO.

    Turnipseed, whocarries all the time, mayhave illustrated a variant of the well known road rage scenario.Idon't know if it's a good shoot. It's too tough to call yetbased on the reported details.


    Man involved in Thursday's fatal shooting says it was in self-defense

    John Langeler / KXLY4 Reporter
    Last updated: Saturday, June 16th, 2007 05:07:17 PM

    SPOKANE -- The man who was involved Thursday's shooting in east Spokane that left a 24-year-old man dead spoke out for the first time on Saturday.

    Allan Turnipseed carries a gun with him at all times. But he'd never had to use it until Thursday. He says his life, and the lives of his family, were in danger.

    Thursday afternoon's shooting was a small incident that spiraled out of control. That is the story from Turnipseed, the man accused of shooting 24-year-old Joshua Smith.

    Turnipseed has not been jailed and is currently a free man. He declined to go on camera, but spoke from his home. He says on Wednesday evening, he witnessed two young men driving down 8th Avenue, one of them tossing a beer can out the window. He confronted the pair, and as he went to call police, they left.

    On Thursday, Turnipseed says he was driving down Ferrall when he saw the same Mazda, with the same men inside and Smith driving. Sensing trouble, Turnipseed says he moved his car to block the young men from coming near his home.

    He then alleges Smith drove up to the car and said he wanted to take a crowbar to his face, then took a crowbar out and began making threats. Turnipseed says he pulled his .380-caliber gun and tried to make a citizen's arrest. He then stood in front of Smith's car to keep them from leaving. Seconds later, Smith allegedly tried to run Turnipseed over. Turnipseed was hit, and as he clung onto the hood, fired two shots into the car.

    Turnipseed believes the men were drinking, and adds that he'll accept any charges that may come. Police say it is illegal to make a citizen's arrest in Washington. The shooting is still under investigation.

    http://www.kxly.com/news/?sect_rank=1&section_id=559&story_id=11993

    Here's yesterday's story on the case, with more details:

    http://www.kxly.com/news/?sect_rank=1&section_id=559&story_id=11963

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    Regular Member AtackDuck's Avatar
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    No citizens' arrest? So, the citizens of Washington have abdicated their authority to enforce their own laws? So just where do the POlice get their authority to enforce the laws? The government? I could have sworn there was something about "governmentfor the people, by the people,of the people..." Washingtonians need to take their state back.

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    We only have the power of citizens arrest if it is for a felony. Citizens have no authority for arrest for misdemeanors. The good thing is that in order to violate the unlawful improsonment statute he would have had to restrain the person. It is obviously a self defense case and I would wager to say that he will not be charged with any crime, except for maybe a traffic violation for impeding traffic because he knowingly put his car where he did with the intention of stopping or slowing the normal flow of traffic.



    Thought I would add this from the Use of Force statute.

    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;


    It seems that of the shooter is truthful then he is surely in the right.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Is (attempted)assault with a deadly weapon (the car and/or crowbarin this case) a felony in Washington?



    Matt

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    I tell you what, a couple years back there was a big deal about a cop who shot a guy he was trying to arrest because the BG decided to take off and drug the cop hanging on to his door 3 blocks before the cop was able to shoot him; I believe this was in Seattle. There was a huge outroar because the BG was black and the cop was white.....yeah, cause I don't care if you are polka dotted; you drag me behind your car or try to run me over with your car, you are equally guilty of trying to kill me no matter what race you are......either way, the cop was not even tried for any wrong doing as far as I remember, was a pretty clear cut defense shooting. Sounds like this is the same issue here.

    And since the BG clearly intended harm to the victim since he pulled a crowbar, something that could definately be seen as a deadly weapon, and clearly stated his intention to cause harm to the victim, then proceeded to hit the victim with a 1 ton + vehicle, it was clear the shooting was to protect from death and/or grave bodily injury.......

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    mattjohnston87 wrote:
    Is (attempted)assault with a deadly weapon (the car and/or crowbarin this case) a felony in Washington?



    Matt
    The onlyassault that is afelony in Wa. is one where physical harm is actually done.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Gotcha. Just wondering.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    I tell you what, a couple years back there was a big deal about a cop who shot a guy he was trying to arrest because the BG decided to take off and drug the cop hanging on to his door 3 blocks before the cop was able to shoot him; I believe this was in Seattle. There was a huge outroar because the BG was black and the cop was white.....yeah, cause I don't care if you are polka dotted; you drag me behind your car or try to run me over with your car, you are equally guilty of trying to kill me no matter what race you are......either way, the cop was not even tried for any wrong doing as far as I remember, was a pretty clear cut defense shooting. Sounds like this is the same issue here.

    And since the BG clearly intended harm to the victim since he pulled a crowbar, something that could definately be seen as a deadly weapon, and clearly stated his intention to cause harm to the victim, then proceeded to hit the victim with a 1 ton + vehicle, it was clear the shooting was to protect from death and/or grave bodily injury.......
    The shooting was definately to prevent serious bodily harm. One thing I missed the first read of the article was that the gun was pulled after the crowbar threat but before the car was used. I am not quite sure that a crowbar wielded by a perp in a car can be deemed a credible threat. If he was outside the car that would be a different story. The article is missing that piece of info however so it is very difficult to determine if the threat was actually capable of being carried out prior to the firearm being displayed.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    mattjohnston87 wrote:
    Is (attempted)assault with a deadly weapon (the car and/or crowbarin this case) a felony in Washington?



    Matt
    The onlyassault that is afelony in Wa. is one where physical harm is actually done.
    I take that back. After looking a little deeper I found that we do have an anticipitory statute that states:

    (1) A person is guilty of an attempt to commit a crime if, with intent to commit a specific crime, he or she does any act which is a substantial step toward the commission of that crime.


    (3) An attempt to commit a crime is a:

    (a) Class A felony when the crime attempted is murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, arson in the first degree, child molestation in the first degree, indecent liberties by forcible compulsion, rape in the first degree, rape in the second degree, rape of a child in the first degree, or rape of a child in the second degree;

    (b) Class B felony when the crime attempted is a class A felony other than an offense listed in (a) of this subsection;

    (c) Class C felony when the crime attempted is a class B felony;

    (d) Gross misdemeanor when the crime attempted is a class C felony;

    (e) Misdemeanor when the crime attempted is a gross misdemeanor or misdemeanor.



    Also the assault that would have occured, assault in the 2nd degree,with the crowbar would have been classified as a class B felony making the attempt a class C felony absolutely giving the man the right to make a citizens arrest.

    I think making the threat and then displaying the crowbar would be a substantial step towards commiting the crime of assault in the 2nd degree.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    mattjohnston87 wrote:
    Is (attempted)assault with a deadly weapon (the car and/or crowbarin this case) a felony in Washington?



    Matt
    The onlyassault that is afelony in Wa. is one where physical harm is actually done.
    *SNIP

    I think making the threat and then displaying the crowbar would be a substantial step towards commiting the crime of assault in the 2nd degree.
    I agree.

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    joeroket wrote:
    The shooting was definately to prevent serious bodily harm. One thing I missed the first read of the article was that the gun was pulled after the crowbar threat but before the car was used. I am not quite sure that a crowbar wielded by a perp in a car can be deemed a credible threat. If he was outside the car that would be a different story. The article is missing that piece of info however so it is very difficult to determine if the threat was actually capable of being carried out prior to the firearm being displayed.
    That's a good point. Is it an imminent threat if a guy wields a crowbar while sitting behind the wheel in his car? I would not think so. Especially after Turnipseed may have impeded with his car the ability of the deceased to drive on by. And then, according to one of the two videos, Turnipseed stood in front of the deceased's car and would not let them pass. I dunno, it's a mixed bag. Turnipseed might've been playing copper a little bit too energetically.

    Would there have been a physical altercation between the shooter and the deceased if Turnipseed had let them go by? That's a crucial question in my mind. As well as joerocket's point about whether the 24 year old punk was indeed a credible or imminent threat to the shooter.

    In the video the reporter said "police recovered the pistol used and, with the help of a gunpowder sniffing dog, other ballistic evidence in this case." I couldn't tell from that statement whether Turnipseed ditched the gun or not. If he did, that wouldn't go in his favor. Maybe the reporter just meant the pistol was "recovered" because Turnipseed turned it over to the responding LEOs and that the dog was used to find the spent shells.

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    If i may append some of the details being Allans son.

    My father had put away his gun when the crowbar was dropped. He did not pull the gun and fire the weapon untill after he had been hit by the car. I do not condonedeath by this means in any way, butI love my father and want him to be there for his grandchildren and his great grandchildren. I do howeverfeel he was justified in firing to save his life. I went and visited him 3 days after this incident and personally I have never seen such a strong individual so shaken. Hard to believe anyone this close to home could be struck by something so life-changing as this.



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    JKWturnipseed wrote:
    If i may append some of the details being Allans son.

    My father had put away his gun when the crowbar was dropped. He did not pull the gun and fire the weapon untill after he had been hit by the car. I do not condonedeath by this means in any way, butI love my father and want him to be there for his grandchildren and his great grandchildren. I do howeverfeel he was justified in firing to save his life. I went and visited him 3 days after this incident and personally I have never seen such a strong individual so shaken. Hard to believe anyone this close to home could be struck by something so life-changing as this.

    Hello and welcome to OCDO! THanks for posting and clearing up some of the details, that's always appreciated. I hope you'll stick around a while. We really are a great bunch of people here and are certainly passionate about OpenCarry. Carrying a firearm is certainly a decision not to be made lightly and we take it very serious around here.

    I do hope all is well with your father. What is the latest on him and the situation?

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    Citizens arrest IS valid in the state of WA, where not codified it's under common law. In WA it IS codified, IIRC.

    There are two circumstances where a citizens arrest can take place.

    Someone accused of committing a felony, where they are trying to flee, and someone you WITNESS committing a misdemeanor that is ALSO causing public disruption (can't think of the exact phrase).
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    In an opinion dated December 27, 1927, to the director of health (1927-28 AGO 427), stated that:

    ". . . If a crime is actually being committed in one's presence, a person, whether he be a peace officer or not, has the power to arrest without warrant. . . ."

    Later, in an opinion dated July 31, 1928, to the chief of the highway patrol (1927-28 AGO 867), it was said that:

    ". . . every citizen has the right to arrest any person [[Orig. Op. Page 4]] whom he actually observes in the act of committing a misdemeanor. . . ."

    In 4 Am.Jur., Arrest, § 35, it is said that:

    "While the authority of a private person to arrest is more limited than that of an officer, in general it may be said that a private person may arrest an offender against criminal laws where the offense is committed in his presence; . . ."

    And in § 38:

    ". . . a private person may arrest for an affray or breach of the peace committed in his presence, and while it is continuing, but not for a misdemeanor on suspicion, regardless of how well it is grounded. . . ."

    The same authority exists for a private person to make an arrest as an officer for misdemeanor committed in his presence, under the common law. In this state, it has been held that the right of an officer to make an arrest without a warrant exists even though the misdemeanor committed in his presence be not a breach of the peace. (State v. Deitz, 136 Wash. 228.) Also, cf.State v. Olsen, 43 Wn. (2d) 726. A private person, if the arrest by him be lawful, is accorded the same right and privileges as officers in accomplishing the purpose. Smith v. Drew, 175 Wash. 11.


    http://ago.bisc.com/opinion.aspx?sec...chive&id=10234






    AND!


    http://www.dol.wa.gov/business/secur...zenarrest1.pdf


    Department of Licensing
    Summary of Citizen Arrest
    October 11, 2005

    Citizen Arrest in Washington State
    Under Washington law, a private person can conduct a citizen’s arrest for a
    misdemeanor if the misdemeanor: (1) was committed in the citizen’s presence and
    (2) constituted a breach of the peace.
    State v. Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. 437, 439,
    604 P.2d 168 (1979);
    Guijosa v. Wal-Mart Stores, 101 Wn. App. 777, 791, 6 P.3d
    583 (2000).
    A person can also conduct a citizen’s arrest for felonies. See
    State v.
    Malone, 106 Wn.2d 607, 724 P.2d 364 at FN1 (1986) citing State v. Miller, 103
    Wn.2d 792, 698 P.2d 554 (1985) and
    State v. Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. 437, 604
    P.2d 168 (1979).
    RCW 10.04.020 provides for a citizen’s arrest at the direction of a district
    court judge, as follows: Arrest -- Offense committed in view of district judge.
    When any offense is committed in view of any district judge, the
    judge may, by verbal direction to any deputy, or if no deputy is present, to any
    citizen, cause such deputy or citizen to arrest such offender, and keep such
    offender in custody for the space of one hour, unless such offender shall sooner be
    taken from such custody by virtue of a warrant issued on complaint on oath. But
    such person so arrested, shall not be confined in jail, nor put upon any trial, until
    arrested by virtue of such warrant.
    While Washington has no statute concerning citizen’s arrests generally,
    RCW 9A.04.060 provides that the common law is applicable where not repugnant
    to the provisions of the state constitution or statutes.
    Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. at
    439;
    State v. Miller, 103 Wn.2d 792, 795, 698 P.2d 554 (1985).
    Application of the common law doctrine of citizen’s arrest is demonstrated
    in the synopsis of the case below:
    Instruction on lawful arrest in prosecution for third degree assault,
    arising from defendant's resistance to apprehension by store personnel, did not
    improperly state the law; although language was taken from statute which sets
    forth defense available to store personnel who have detained a suspected shoplifter,
    statutory language was consistent with common-law right of citizen arrest which
    permits detention of a suspected shoplifter on reasonable grounds. State v. Jones
    (1992) 63 Wash.App. 703, 821 P.2d 543, review denied 118 Wash.2d 1028, 828
    P.2d 563. Assault And Battery 96(3); Criminal Law 808.5
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    The bad part is that as I read this I see a guy who is approaching people for minor crimes such as littering. :shock:

    Granted... it is a crime in most if not all states. But I am not going to approach perfect strangers and try to give them the" what fer' " and try to correct them. I would not even do this off duty as a cop.

    Unless you feel that strongly about the crime.... I am not going to approach or call in unless I want to see them convicted and that means I have to go get the warrant and go to court over a beer can. It might just be easier to go pick it up and throw it out.



    "Sensing trouble, Turnipseed says he moved his car to block the young men from coming near his home."

    I find this a little troubling. What trouble was he sensing?? And what is this about blocking their car???



    "He then alleges Smith drove up to the car and said he wanted to take a crowbar to his face, then took a crowbar out and began making threats. Turnipseed says he pulled his .380-caliber gun and tried to make a citizen's arrest. He then stood in front of Smith's car to keep them from leaving."

    OK... threats were made and the guy displayed a crowbar. I did not read where he tried to attack the shooter.If he did try... the shooter would have been justified in dropping him in his tracks.

    So At this point I do not see a violation unless that state has one for making threats. I can say "I am going to kick your butt" all day..... No crime!!

    So there was no need for a "citizens arrest" and theshooter had no justification to even draw a gun to hold them there. I see it more as an armed abduction or unlawful detention.

    Now for the matter of shooting the driver while on the hood. IMO this is justified as the driver should not be moving down the road with someone on the hood.

    On the other hand..... maybe the driver felt he was a victim of a gun crazed man who wanted to shoot them and the driver was only trying to escape.


    [line]


    When he drew his gun...... did he really intend on shooting these men over a threat to do harm? He would have been better off if he took down the tag. The alleged crime was not one where he needed to draw down on them.

    IMO... based on his prior actions.. he is a loose cannon.




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    I would definitely confront a litterer, armed or not.

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    "Man charged with murder for road rage shooting"

    March 20, 2008 03:32 PM
    "Police investigate a June 2007 shooting in Spokane. After months of investigation, the shooter was finally charged with 2nd degree murder on Wednesday, March 19th.
    SPOKANE -- After more than nine months of intensive investigation, a man involved in a Spokane shooting last summer has been formally charged with murder.
    Alan Turnipseed is accused of fatally shooting Joshua Smith at the intersection of 8th and Ferrall in an escalating argument between the two on June 14, 2007. Investigators and prosecutors have been interviewing witnesses, reconstructing the incident and reviewing and processing evidence since that time and officially charged Turnipseed with 2nd degree murder for the first time on Wednesday.
    The shooting came as the result of a road rage incident where Turnipseed claims Smith tore through his neighborhood in a Mazda sedan, causing the defendant to shoot the victim in self-defense. However, forensics evidence and investigative follow-ups suggest that the shooting may have been more malicious in nature.
    The incident got its start on June 13th when Turnipseed approached Smith about throwing a beer can from his car. The two exchanged profanities and eventually parted.
    However, the next day the two again started arguing in increasingly hostile tones until both armed themselves - Turnipseed with a handgun and Smith with a tire iron. As the confrontation got more heated, Turnipseed attempted to make a citizen's arrest.
    Smith started to drive away, but is alleged to have struck Turnipseed with his car while doing so. At that point, the defendant shot and killed the victim in his car.
    Numerous interviews have taken place and incident reconstructions have been undertaken as investigators have spent a lengthy amount of time trying to accurately recreate the events that led to the shooting.
    Reconstruction specialists were brought in to analyze whether the evidence supported Turnipseed's claim that he was acting in self-defense.
    "The evidence does not support Turnipseed's statements that Smith was attempting to run Turnipseed over with the vehicle," Washington State Patrol Criminal Investigation Division Detective Tracy Hanson concluded, according to the Court Documents filed Wednesday. "Instead of moving away, Turnipseed advanced towards the drivers side of the Mazda, drew the Colt .380 caliber semi automatic handgun from his right rear jean pocket and while putting his hand on top of the drivers door frame, shot Smith twice in the chest at close range."
    The investigation concluded that "Allan L. Turnipseed chose to be the aggressor at every pivotal moment of this incident" and therefore "probable cause exists to charge Turnipseed with one count of Second Degree Murder."
    Turnipseed has been taken into custody and is being held on $100,000 bond. He made his first court appearance Thursday afternoon.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    "Instead of moving away, Turnipseed advanced towards the drivers side of the Mazda, drew the Colt .380 caliber semi automatic handgun from his right rear jean pocket and while putting his hand on top of the drivers door frame, shot Smith twice in the chest at close range."


    This was my point......

    I see that someone agrees with me. :shock:

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    "Instead of moving away, Turnipseed advanced towards the drivers side of the Mazda, drew the Colt .380 caliber semi automatic handgun from his right rear jean pocket and while putting his hand on top of the drivers door frame, shot Smith twice in the chest at close range."


    This was my point......

    I see that someone agrees with me. :shock:
    If that is the case, then this case is much more complicated and not so clear cut as self defense. I don't know how much I trust the media's interpretation of the events, nor how much I trust the police reports, since I've had some pretty absurd things written about me in police reports before.

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    The way I read it.... he pulled his gun and when the bad guy got back in the car... he stood in front of the car with his gun still drawn.

    So he placed himselfin the way as a roadblockand waited for the guy to pull forward.

    Sometimes you have to be the better man.. or in this case.. smarter.... Pick your fights wisely.. this is not a fight I think was worth shooting someone over.

    [line]

    Reminds me of an aggressive driver.. a DC cab!! Ran a stop sign and pulled into my path. He then refused to let me pass him. He was speeding up and slowing down in front of me and when I moved right into the turn lane.. he changed lanes in front of me on purpose.

    He gestured for us to both pull over and I motioned back in agreement. I followed him through the parking lot and when he made a right I made a left and headed to my restaurant. He could not get back around in time to find me.

    Point being... I could have arrested him.... I had a radio and could have called for backup too. I had a gun and could have shot him had he approached with a weapon.

    I chose to do none and just let it go. To me.. it was simply not really worth my time and I had my family with me. I did not want to put them in any danger.

    Pick your fights....and make sure they are worth it.

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    This looks like a retaliation shooting to me. the guy hit him with his car, and then he got back up and shot him for it?

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    Pick your fights....and make sure they are worth it.
    +1 Good advice there.

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    Did the media ever mention that there was alcohol involved?

    And btw the alcohol was the litter... which open container of alcohol in wa state is dui. PERIOD. Allan knew they had open containers from the infraction the night before. speaking of he had called in and reported it the night before. this was the first assault of threats and wielding of the tire iron.the next day is when the shooting occurred and they had littered the same type of alcohol.





  25. #25
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    JKWturnipseed wrote:
    Did the media ever mention that there was alcohol involved?

    And btw the alcohol was the litter... which open container of alcohol in wa state is dui. PERIOD. Allan knew they had open containers from the infraction the night before. speaking of he had called in and reported it the night before. this was the first assault of threats and wielding of the tire iron.the next day is when the shooting occurred and they had littered the same type of alcohol.
    Do you have any other new information on the case that you can share with us?
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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