WA - Spokane man involved in fatal shooting says it was in self-defense

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The way I read it.... he pulled his gun and when the bad guy got back in the car... he stood in front of the car with his gun still drawn.

So he placed himselfin the way as a roadblockand waited for the guy to pull forward.

Sometimes you have to be the better man.. or in this case.. smarter.... Pick your fights wisely.. this is not a fight I think was worth shooting someone over.

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Reminds me of an aggressive driver.. a DC cab!! Ran a stop sign and pulled into my path. He then refused to let me pass him. He was speeding up and slowing down in front of me and when I moved right into the turn lane.. he changed lanes in front of me on purpose.

He gestured for us to both pull over and I motioned back in agreement. I followed him through the parking lot and when he made a right I made a left and headed to my restaurant. He could not get back around in time to find me.

Point being... I could have arrested him.... I had a radio and could have called for backup too. I had a gun and could have shot him had he approached with a weapon.

I chose to do none and just let it go. To me.. it was simply not really worth my time and I had my family with me. I did not want to put them in any danger.

Pick your fights....and make sure they are worth it.

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This looks like a retaliation shooting to me. the guy hit him with his car, and then he got back up and shot him for it?

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Pick your fights....and make sure they are worth it.

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+1 Good advice there.

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Did the media ever mention that there was alcohol involved?

And btw the alcohol was the litter... which open container of alcohol in wa state is dui. PERIOD. Allan knew they had open containers from the infraction the night before. speaking of he had called in and reported it the night before. this was the first assault of threats and wielding of the tire iron.the next day is when the shooting occurred and they had littered the same type of alcohol.

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JKWturnipseed wrote:

Did the media ever mention that there was alcohol involved?

And btw the alcohol was the litter... which open container of alcohol in wa state is dui. PERIOD. Allan knew they had open containers from the infraction the night before. speaking of he had called in and reported it the night before. this was the first assault of threats and wielding of the tire iron.the next day is when the shooting occurred and they had littered the same type of alcohol.

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Do you have any other new information on the case that you can share with us?

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well not really any new info. just that what the media put out there isnt all that true.

the media institutions dont make money from clear cut cases. they make money on murder and violence.

The prosecuting attourny thats charged my dad though just lost a big case so thats why this was ever taken to court.

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joeroket wrote:

joeroket wrote:

mattjohnston87 wrote:

Is (attempted)assault with a deadly weapon (the car and/or crowbarin this case) a felony in Washington?



Matt

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The onlyassault that is afelony in Wa. is one where physical harm is actually done.

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I take that back. After looking a little deeper I found that we do have an anticipitory statute that states:

(1) A person is guilty of an attempt to commit a crime if, with intent to commit a specific crime, he or she does any act which is a substantial step toward the commission of that crime.


(3) An attempt to commit a crime is a:

(a) Class A felony when the crime attempted is murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, arson in the first degree, child molestation in the first degree, indecent liberties by forcible compulsion, rape in the first degree, rape in the second degree, rape of a child in the first degree, or rape of a child in the second degree;

(b) Class B felony when the crime attempted is a class A felony other than an offense listed in (a) of this subsection;

(c) Class C felony when the crime attempted is a class B felony;

(d) Gross misdemeanor when the crime attempted is a class C felony;

(e) Misdemeanor when the crime attempted is a gross misdemeanor or misdemeanor.



Also the assault that would have occured, assault in the 2nd degree,with the crowbar would have been classified as a class B felony making the attempt a class C felony absolutely giving the man the right to make a citizens arrest.

I think making the threat and then displaying the crowbar would be a substantial step towards commiting the crime of assault in the 2nd degree.

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so... the threats the night before, and brandishing off the tire iron.(which was reported to the police).... littering of open containters of alcohol... 2 times. and the threats and brandishing of the tire iron again. sounds to me like that should be enough of a reason to try and hold this kid till the cops got there. which was his intention. not firing his weapon. when the kid dropped the tire iron and got back in the car my dad put away his gun. he did however stand in front of the car to try and get the kid to stay. struck by the car and on top hoping for his life my dad pulled the gun again shot.

Oh and another thing. about the dogs having to find the gun... no it was them trying to find the 2 casings. after the shooting took place my dad rolled off the car walked to his yard sat down un-chambered and safetied the gun and layed it about 8 10 feet away for the police.

I'd say this shouldnt even have come this far =/

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expvideo wrote:

SNIP I don't know how much I trust the media's interpretation of the events...

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I know how much I trust this media report.

Lets look at an important tidbit:

However, forensics evidence and investigative follow-ups suggest that the shooting may have been more malicious in nature. (emphasis mine)

Acitizen gets arrested and charged, something thatrequires probable cause, because forensics evidence and investigative follow-ups SUGGEST the shooting MAY HAVE BEEN more malicious in nature?

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well not to mention 9 months passed between the event and him being charged, if there was malicious intent wouldnt that have been spotted and called out earlier. they had more than 10 witenesses. all of which pretty much identically matched my dads acounts of the story. Yet 9 months later he's being charged with murder in the 2nd? dont you need motive for 2nd degree?

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Thank you for the info JKWturnipseed. There are some interesting and strange elements to the matter. I'll be interested in seeing how this all turns out. I wish the best to you and your family as I am sure these are trying times for all of you.

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LEO 229writes:

"The bad part is that as I read this I see a guy who is approaching people for minor crimes such as littering. :shock:"

ME: In Washington this is considered either

A: probable cause as it was a beer can being thrown from a moving vehicle

B: Nothing other than a nuisance.

C: A misdemeanor (littering) crime punishable by up to and including 30 days in jail and or a $500fine. (nice extra money for the leo that writes this ticket)

D: All of the Above



LEO 229writes:
"Granted... it is a crime in most if not all states. But I am not going to approach perfect strangers and try to give them the" what fer' " and try to correct them. I would not even do this off duty as a cop."

ME: Again back to the probable cause clause most leo use as an excuse to execute a roadside sobriety test to determine DUI




LEO 229writes:
Unless you feel that strongly about the crime.... I am not going to approach or call in unless I want to see them convicted and that means I have to go get the warrant and go to court over a beer can. It might just be easier to go pick it up and throw it out.

ME: Since when does any leo have to go get a warrant on a suspected DUI? Again they threw a beer can from a vehicle and in Washington and Florida drinking in a parked vehicle you can still be charged with a DUI if there is reasonable suspicion you were driving. IE witnesses


Turnipseed says he moved his car to block the young men from coming near his home."
I find this a little troubling. What trouble was he sensing?? And what is this about blocking their car???

ME: Why would you find this troubling? Instinct plays a large part in the human condition to sense pending danger. I believe most LEO call it a "Hunch" I know myuncle did. He would listen to his "hunches" and pay extra attention to his surrounding. Sometimes nothing would happen, but several times it saved his life!!


LEO 229writes:
"He then alleges Smith drove up to the car and said he wanted to take a crowbar to his face, then took a crowbar out and began making threats.

ME: Um I think I have heard a LEO or two in my life call this Verbal assault. Luckily in Washington we just call it a threat and combined with the physical approach to Turnipseeds property and more importantly his family a reason for defensive posture. You are familiar with what a defensive posture is right?

LEO 229writes:"Turnipseed says he pulled his .380-caliber gun and tried to make a citizen's arrest. He then stood in front of Smith's car to keep them from leaving."

ME: Well we agree on something at least. he put himself in a bad spot and should have let the dumb @$$ go drinking and driving down the road where he may have killed someone. Instead he tried to push a bad position and it appears to have escalated from there

LEO 229writes:
OK... threats were made and the guy displayed a crowbar. I did not read where he tried to attack the shooter.If he did try... the shooter would have been justified in dropping him in his tracks.

ME: Um Ithought I read he tried to run him over with the car or doesn't that count as an attack. I thought itis alsoa hit and run


koolaid?



LEO 229writes: Now for the matter of shooting the driver while on the hood. IMO this is justified as the driver should not be moving down the road with someone on the hood.

ME: Um or driving under the influence or endangering the lives of citizens.

LEO 229writes:On the other hand..... maybe the driver felt he was a victim of a gun crazed man who wanted to shoot them and the driver was only trying to escape.

ME: He probably did feel that way, as he definitely displayed signs of impaired judgement, probably due to the beer he was drinking and tossing.


LEO 229writes:
When he drew his gun...... did he really intend on shooting these men over a threat to do harm? He would have been better off if he took down the tag. The alleged crime was not one where he needed to draw down on them.

ME: They hit him with their vehicle thats assault and attempted hit and run

LEO 229writes:IMO... based on his prior actions.. he is a loose cannon.

ME: Glad you are not on a jury of his peers.

But hey like Rodney King said "Cant we all just get along?"

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As Josh's lil sister... i know that there are always two sides of a story and i am ganna speak good for my side and whoever is ganna speak for the other..but first of all the media likes to just leave alot of shit out when they tell their storys and that pisses me off cause if its ganna be said then it needs to be said right..Secound no matter what my brother said and how or when he had the tire iron in his hand he never once hit allen with it..and not only did allen take his car and block the ally so that josh could not get out witch is not the smartest idea cause u can get in alot of trubble for that he allso had the gun in his poket the hole time so he had already planned the day before that he was ganna use it. another thing is that even if my brother did hit him with the car there would have been marks on his car and there wasent he still should not have pulled that trigger because when he did pull it he knew at that time that he was ok and that his life was not in danger..so he thought it would be ok to take my brothers life. who was just on his way home from work who was just giving some co-works a lift home and was going straight to pick up his two lil girls after he was done. Josh had no intentions of harming this man or elce he would of done it but now he is gone because of a small voice argument over a smiple beer can. Wow u really need a life when your chaceing young guys around cause they threw a can in a ally. And not only did he shoot him he shot him twice not once at a rang from not only a foot into his cheast...think about all of that...

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Lil SiS wrote:

As Josh's little sister, I know that there are always two sides of a story and I am gonna speak well for my side, and whoever is gonna speak for the other. But first of all, the media likes to just leave a lot of @#$% out when they tell their stories, and that pisses me off because if it's gonna be said then it needs to be said right.

Second, no matter what my brother said and how or when he had the tire iron in his hand, he never once hit Allen with it. And not only did Allen take his car and block the ally so that Josh could not get out (which is not the smartest idea because you can get in a lot of trouble for that), he also had the gun in his pocket the whole time; so, he had already planned the day before that he was gonna use it.

Another thing is that even if my brother did hit him with the car, there would have been marks on his car, and there weren't.

He [Allen] still should not have pulled that trigger because when he did pull it, he knew at that time that he was OK and that his life was not in danger. So he thought it would be OK to take my brother's life. [He] was just on his way home from work [and] was just giving some co-workers a lift home and was going straight to pick up his two little girls after he was done. Josh had no intentions of harming this man or else he would have done it.

But now he is gone because of a small voice argument over a simple beer can. Wow, you really need a life when you're chasing young guys around because they threw a can in an alley. And not only did he shoot him, [but] he shot him twice, not once at a [distance]; from not only a foot, into his chest.

Think about all of that.

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Edited for readability.

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I am sorry for your loss. I must say from personal experience that tragedies like this are not easy to cope with. I also know that no matter what anyone says right now about your brother is going to change anything in your mind. I do not wish to make the pain you are going through any worse for you but feel that a response is warranted.

No one on this forum who truly believes in our right to bare arms wants thing like this to happen! What you are seeing here is a group of individuals who are typically harassed and maligned by the media as well asmany law enforcement agencies for practicing our rights and beliefs. If the evidence can establish what you say is true then yes a guilty verdict would be warranted.

Yet understand many on this forum, myself included are scepticalof the way in which this story was reported. As more details come out it appears that there was a lot more going on here than what has been reported and released to the public. We are not saying anyone was justified for shooting your brother but we are saying we would like to hear all the evidence so we can make an honest assessment of the situation. Not just go off the sensationalized reports by the media and law enforcement who would normally try to use this case as a reason why no-one should have a gun. Please do not mis-interpret this fact.

In the coming months there will be many things said that both exonerate and condemnALL parties involved, and as someone close to the situation it will be harder on you than most.I am sorry and hope that the truth will come out in this case as to what exactly took place, for everyone involved as well as those watching from the outside.

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I would have to agree with ravensmiles on her comment and appreciate the tact in which was used.I am sorry for your loss as well and no matter how much i want my father to be exhonerated for thisI dont believe what happened was right for either party.Lil sis you are right in saying that there are two sides to every story. The media did not however make my father out to be a hero they did whats usually done in cases like this and immedietly demonize the shooter or defender.

No matter how punitive you think what your brother did was right though it was not. I am a firm believer in the laws that we have in place about alcohol and driving, it doesnt matter if he was the one drinking or not especially considering he was going to get his children. Open containors of alcohol in a vehicle is an automatic dui for the driver in most cases. this doesnt mean im justifying what my father did and neither does he has been an absolute wreck since this has happened torn himself up over what happened and rightly so. however i was witness to his injuries days after the fact and i talked to everyone on the street that witnessed the events and all will concede that he was struck by your brothers vehicle. That right there is assault with a deadly vehicle whether you are going 2 miles per hour or 90. again I am not justifying what my dad has done but the fact remains most of this evidence has been left out trying to be ignored. out of umpteen witnesses available for conctact the only ones the state is going to allow are predisposed to your brother. the rest most of which are non biased witnesses are being left out of the hearing.

I do feel for your loss though your brother and i bear the same name,are around the same age,and both have two children. Sending my father to prison for defending himself in his mind though is not going to bring back your brother or give you any justice.

that is however that the story that i have recieved is true.

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I want to thank Lil SiS for offering her view of the events and JKWturnipseed for his continued engagement on the forum with news and information on the case.

ravensmiles13, well said.

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There is no winner in this case there is only losers, there are children without fathers, sisters without brothers, and enough heartache to go around. The big picture is that if everyone could do things over again I'm sure both parties would make different decisions. Let this be a lesson to everyone, we all have to be responsible with our rights, and taking a life shouldnever a thing done lightly, there are always people left behind in our wakes.

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While the fireing may or may not have been correct in self defense, the whole situation should never have occured. If Mr. Turnipseed really wanted to do the correct thing, heshould havegotten out of the way, let the man leave, and called the police with the mans direction of travel, vehicle make and model, and license plate.

To stand in front of a mans car who has already threatened you with a tire iron and is under the influence of alcohol is just asking for something to happen.

I am sorry for the loss to you and your family lil sis, and I hope that all the truths come out, that we on the forum will never know, and it is handeled properly and justly by the court system.

It is a sad story, but one that could have been avoided very very easily...

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AtackDuck wrote:

No citizens' arrest? So, the citizens of Washington have abdicated their authority to enforce their own laws? So just where do the POlice get their authority to enforce the laws? The government? I could have sworn there was something about "governmentfor the people, by the people,of the people..." Washingtonians need to take their state back.:exclaim:

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While Washington has no statute concerning citizen’s arrests generally, RCW 9A.04.060 provides that the common law is applicable where not repugnant to the provisions of the state constitution or statutes. Gonzales, 24 Wn. App. at 439; State v. Miller, 103 Wn.2d 792, 795, 698 P.2d 554 (1985).

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First off iwouldliketo thank all of the people that replyed to my message and i allso want to say that its kinda weird and hard for me to be talking to people that are related or are on Allens side..But i know that this situation was no ones falt but the two people in topic. I just want to make it clear that i have talked to the co-worker who was in the car the day the beer can was thrown away and i have read the evidence just to make it clear my brother was not the one drinking the beer he would never do that to his kids. But i do know other things...I just wont speak of them cause it is not my place. I also wanna say that i understand all that you have said (allens daughter) but when u say that giving my brother justice will not bring him back.. i would have to disagree because that i beleave that even if my brother was drinking and driving or he really did hit your father with his car you would want to see him put behind bars to serve his time..because with out that you dont learn anything and if everone got away with stuff like that because there is a little self defence our world would be hell. And yea it will bring my brother back..he will finlly get to rest in peace knowing that the man that shot him to death is in jail and dos not get to injoy life for a while. Because my brother will never get to injoy life ever again and your father gets another chance..I think i am ganna have to get back to another reply..Thank you again