Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Deadly force against someone entering your house..

  1. #1
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    So during my CCP class we watched a video that outlined NC's deadly force laws. I remember part of the video stating that you cannot shoot someone who IS IN yourproperty and is not threatening, nor can you shoot someone who is leaving your property and is not threatening. (i.e. if you catch a thief in the act with your TV, you can't just shoot him unless he's attacking you.) However, it said that you can use deadly force to stop an intruder from ATTEMPTING TO ENTER your property, IF there's reason to believe that they are entering to commit a felony or violent crime. (i.e. prying your back door open at 2 in the morning, NOT your angry ex knocking on the door trying to get your attention around lunch time.)

    Looking at packing.org's summary of the laws, I can't see anything that makes that distinction, so I'm curious about it. Does it only apply to your place of residence, or ANY private property? If it applies to ANY private property, would this include someone attempting to break into your car?

  2. #2
    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    COTEP FOREVER!, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,379

    Post imported post

    I just took my CCW class last weekend and thought that was interesting as well. I would imagine that the answer lies in weather you are in the car or not at the time of the break in. If a man is trying to get into your car while you're in it, your life is in danger. if someone is breaking into your car, and you observe him doing it from a safe distance, you may not use deadly force to protect your property. However, if you tell him to stop, and he turns to attack you, the rules of engagement change (as long as you feel an imminent threat to your life).

  3. #3
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    178

    Post imported post

    You can shoot someone at any time while they are in the process of getting in to your house through a window, door, etc. and it is justified self-defense. However, once they are inside your house, the same deadly force law applies. You have to be in fear of murder, rape, or great bodily harm to shoot them. Trust me, If someone is charging at you in your own house, whether he has a weapon or not, you can shoot him. The only other way that you can shoot him is if he has a weapon and he is threatening you with it. If he is trying to retreat or he surrenders, you cannot use deadly force. The key term in all of this is if you, a person of ordinary firmness,are in fear of murder, rape, or great bodily harm to yourself or anyone around you. It is a grey area, but most of the time if someone forcefully enteredyour house, you did not invite them in and you do not want them there and he is not trying to leave, you can use lethal force.

    For the car, you would have to be inside the car and he attacks you in a way, again, you are in fear of murder, rape, or great bodily harm. I would say that you are more vuneralble while sitting in your car because you cannot retreat, so the definition of using lethal force would be broadened a little bit. Again, the key to proving the self-defense is if the facts show that you really were in danger and you believed you were in danger.

    I wish they would go ahead and pass the castle doctrine so we won't have to worry about all of this bullcrap. Under the new bill, all he would have to do, is beinside your house or anywhere that you had a legal right to be with the intent to commit a forcible felony and you could defend yourself. The state would have to prove that you didn't act in self-defense to convict you. Now, you have to prove that you were acting in self-defense to save your own skin.

    I am not a lawyer. This is what I got off of my CCW Instructor, shooting at the range with police officers, and people telling stories about how they defended themselves. Ifyou want the word of the lawgo talk to a lawyer and if one of the above mentioned situations happens, make the lawyer your second call right after 911.

  4. #4
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    Yeah, that all makes sense. My other question that never got answered in the CCW class was what if you have a person whom has reached behind themselves, in a coat, or in a pocket, and you shoot them with firm belief that they were drawing a weapon, however it turns out that they didn't have anything on them. I'm not going to wait until I SEE a gun to shoot the guy...if I can see the gun, the gun can shoot me.

  5. #5
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    178

    Post imported post

    I think that any person of ordinary firmness would believe that the crook was going for a gun and their life was in danger if the thug reached for somethingin his coat or behind his back while a gun was pointed at him.

  6. #6
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    dubccat51 wrote:
    I think that any person of ordinary firmness would believe that the crook was going for a gun and their life was in danger if the thug reached for somethingin his coat or behind his back while a gun was pointed at him.
    Yeah, applying that to the "criminal in your house" scenerio, I'd buy that...but what about if you're in a public area and a man simply approaches you in an empty parking lot. You look at him and immediate decide he looks shadey, he's walking agressively, and he's out of place. Before you can say "Can I help you?" he's already reaching behind his back...so you draw and fire, thinking he's reaching for a weapon.

    After the fact you find out he was actually a man pushing a religious agenda, and was reaching for a pamphlet to give to you. Perhaps he approached you so aggresively because he's anti-gun and he saw you carrying...all though you wont know because he's already dead. Now the cops and DA have a dead 42 yr old male who was passing out religious flyers.... :?



    The reason I ask that what-if is because almost that exact situation happened in a wal-mart parking lot shortly before I started carrying. He was wearing a long brown coat...he looked kinda dirty, and was very quickly approaching my car, in the BACK of the parking lot, as I exited my vehicle. I was concerned enough to palm my knife, which was the only weapon I had at the time. Turns out he was passing out some religious crap. He never once smiled, and seemed very threatening. I thanked him for the toilet paper and walked away...

  7. #7
    State Researcher .40 Cal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    COTEP FOREVER!, North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    1,379

    Post imported post

    We could start a "what if" thread that would go on for ever. The thing is, you'll never know how things are going to go down. Many people (including friends of mine) have died with their weapons holstered. We can't prevent everything by using deadly force. In fact, deadly force is a last resort. We are not meant to draw on everyone that seems threatening to us no matter what your spider sense is telling you. If you see that person coming at you in a threatening manner, your first move is to say something. If that doesn't work, then you escalate the level of force. When your weapon comes out, someone is going to die. That's the rule. That 42 Y/O man will have the entire state defending him in court after you shoot him, you will just have your word.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Morgan, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,580

    Post imported post

    DreQo wrote:
    So during my CCP class we watched a video that outlined NC's deadly force laws. I remember part of the video stating that you cannot shoot someone who IS IN yourproperty and is not threatening, nor can you shoot someone who is leaving your property and is not threatening. (i.e. if you catch a thief in the act with your TV, you can't just shoot him unless he's attacking you.) However, it said that you can use deadly force to stop an intruder from ATTEMPTING TO ENTER your property, IF there's reason to believe that they are entering to commit a felony or violent crime. (i.e. prying your back door open at 2 in the morning, NOT your angry ex knocking on the door trying to get your attention around lunch time.)

    Looking at packing.org's summary of the laws, I can't see anything that makes that distinction, so I'm curious about it. Does it only apply to your place of residence, or ANY private property? If it applies to ANY private property, would this include someone attempting to break into your car?
    Well...,this is from Utah,






    Utah Code Section 76-2-405




    76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation. (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that ...

    76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
    (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
    (a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
    (b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
    (2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.


    Amended by Chapter 252, 1985 General Session
    Download Code Section Zipped WP 6/7/8 76_02025.ZIP 2,215 Bytes



    "with Great Power comes Great Responsibility"


  9. #9
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    I definately understand that what-if's could go on and on forever. That one has just stuck with me because that guy honestly freaked me out. He walked up fast enough to catch me by surprise, and reached behind him before I would have even had a chance to say anything. The piece of paper came out and I honestly tensed up thinking I was going to have to defend myself against something I possibly wasn't ready for.

    I guess I'm just a what-if kind of guy. I'm ALWAYS thinking about something, so I don't see anything wrong with considering different scenerios from time to time.

  10. #10
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    178

    Post imported post

    Even if someone approaches you threateningly in a public place and reaches behind their back or starts fighting with you you cannot just draw and shoot. You can only draw if you feel like you are going to die or be hurt really badly and the facts show the same. I saw the same video as you and I specifically remember that when theabused wife initwas assaulted she could not legally shoot until she was being choked and the woman at the bank could not shoot until the perp pulled the knife out. In North Carolina law, it sayes you cannot shoot to stop simple assault. You still have to non-lethally defend yourself until the person has the upper hand and your life is in danger or they have a weapon and threaten you with it. Someone just reaching behind their back in a public place does not mean they have a weapon and they are about to use it on you. As I remember in a previous post, you said that you were a Marine. You have to be especially vigilant to insure that your life is in danger because if a court proves that you could have defended yourself non-lethally with your training, you will be screwed as would I since I am a 270 pound college offensive lineman. Justice really isn't blind. The simple fact is, having a concealed weapon will not protect you in every situation. The world is a dangerous place and you could say that being alive is dangerous. Aconcealed weapon just gives you a better chance if something bad does happen. You just have to hope that someone doesn't get the drop on you. Being alert goes a long way in this but sometimes nothingcan save you.

  11. #11
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,350

    Post imported post

    Yeah...I think part of it, too, is that I don't really understand "simple assault". I had a friend go to the hospital and almost die from a single punch to the head...I may be a Marine, but I've never been incredibly strong. A larger guy could quickly over-power me, so it's hard to think "well, I'll let him hit me a couple times, and hope that he just wants to rough me up..". All that being said, I've never been in a serious physical confrontation outside of work....I've always tried to keep myself out of bad situations, and talk myself out of the ones I get into lol.

  12. #12
    Opt-Out Members
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , North Carolina, USA
    Posts
    178

    Post imported post

    HankT:
    Waiting to "see the gun" is a good strategy. Of course, waiting to seethe gun is a bad tactic.

    DreQo:
    I've always tried to keep myself out of bad situations, and talk myself out of the ones I get into lol.

    That is a great strategy and a great tactic.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •