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  1. #1
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    Hey everyone. While waiting for my Florida concealed permit I figured I'd start open carrying. I'm in the Fairfax/Oakton area, just moved in from Maryland because of my new full time job. I'm a fed (non LEO variety) in Alexandria during the day. Licensed PI (maryland state police issued) on the weekends. I haven't convinced my PI boss in Maryland to apply me for one of the Maryland CCWs yet. I plan on applying for the FBI in 3 years when I turn 25.


    From the first few days of OCing in the Oakton area I am really surprised. No one is even batting an eye at me. Granted, I played it "safe" by wearing my work clothes (shirt+tie+slacks) and my fed ID. I figured people might just think I'm a fed LEO, which they either do or they're just not surprised in general.

    I'm carrying a SiG P229 Equinox in a Desanti thumb break scabbard. I still haven't built up the courage to carry with a round in the action yet.

    Anyways, just thought I'd drop in and introduce myself. It appears that VA is very well represented in the OC aspect. And what's the VCDL I keep reading about?

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard neighbor.

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    Welcome to the board....

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    Welcome!

    I notice the better dressed I am the fewer looks I get up here in PA as well.
    t-shirt and shorts/jeans I get occational WTF looks despite being clean cut.
    Khaki's/jeans w/button up shirt seems to get no looks at all.


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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    The VCDL you have heard about is the best damn grass roots firearms rights group in the nation. Its $25 a year and worth every penny. Go to their website, www.vcdl.org to see what they're about. They have meetings every month in the NOVA area, and then meet in a local restaurant for "fellowship" afterwards. They OC there, since you can't conceal in a resturant that serves alcohol. Consider going to one of their meetings; you can OC with others and feel more comfortable about it. You might even consider chambering a round

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    Anyways, just thought I'd drop in and introduce myself. It appears that VA is very well represented in the OC aspect. And what's the VCDL I keep reading about?
    Welcome to the board, nickerj1. Welcome to one of the free states!

    VCDL is the Virginia Citizens Defense League...a grassroots lobbying group for the protection of our 2nd Amendment rights. You'll find several people here are VCDL members.

    Check out their website at http://www.vcdl.org

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    Welcome and at times you'll run into almost members like me, like I've almost gotten around to joining

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    I went to Fair Oaks today to pick up a suit from Jos A Bank, sorta after work, so again I was wearing work clothes and open carrying. I parked at the Macy's, which is right next to the Jos A Bank, but decided I wanted some Coldstone too. I then realized I should get the ice cream before the suit, that way I'm not walking around the mall carrying a huge suit. While in the Coldstone I noticed a short female security guard waiting for me outside.

    She gestured for me to come over while I was exiting, so I went and approached her.

    The convo...

    Her: I don't mean to drill you, but who are you with?
    Me: I'm a detective.
    Her: Right, but which organization are you with?
    Me: Soandso Investigations.
    Her: Do you have a license to carry that?
    Me: I'm not required to have a license to open carry.
    Her: Do you have your DCJS?
    Me: A what?
    Her: Dept of criminal justice ID.
    I pull out my ID flap from my wallet which has my MD driver's license and my MSP issued detective license.
    Me: Here's my detective license issued by the Maryland State Police.
    She writes down all the information on her notepad and communicates back to her supervisor.
    Her: What are you doing right now?
    Me: Oh, picking up a suit. I'm off duty.
    Her: What do you do with this group?
    Me: Surveillances. And meet with clients and interview them.
    Her: Are you federally contracted?
    Me: No, private agency in Maryland, but as an agency we're licensed in both MD and VA. But I'm also a federal employee.
    Her: So you don't have a license to carry that?
    Me: It's not required to have a license to open carry, it is to conceal carry.
    Her: You'd probably know better than me.
    Me: Oh, I made sure I knew the rules beforehand.
    She handed back my IDs.

    Then we talked about VT for a little while and she asked I pick up my suit as soon as possible and then leave. And that she'd have 5 or 6 calls from worried customers about me and didn't want to have to deal with it. All and all she was nice, and I understand she's told to ask for ID and write all that down even though I'm not doing anything wrong.

    What are everyone elses experiences at Fair Oaks? I saw that someone ate at the Champs there and didn't have a problem with security.

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    A rent-a-cop, and you were on your way out? I would've been tempted to tell her to get bent. After biting my tongue I would've told her that OC requires no permit, who I work for is none of her business, no, she can't see my ID, does she have anything else she'd like to say to me otherwise have a nice day.

    And I doubt anyone called her about a man with a gun as long as you were dressed neatly and carrying properly.

    I can't stress enough that she would never get to see my ID.

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    But why cause a scene? If you have the card, you may as well play it. Whether it's a LEO badge, or a PI license, or a fed ID. If you don't have any of the above, then sure, tell her to get lost.

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    Whatever suits you, as long as you're fine with it.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    nickerj1 wrote:
    But why cause a scene?* If you have the card, you may as well play it.* Whether it's a LEO badge, or a PI license, or a fed ID.* If you don't have any of the above, then sure, tell her to get lost.
    Welcome to the forum. A lot of good folks are here to help you get along. It is educational for all of us.

    Not to put too fine a point on this but, you really need to think through some of what you are doing.

    You are walking around OC with a federal ID and showing that ID for non agency purposes when stopped and questioned while off duty. I am currently not aware of ANY federal agency where this in not a serious violation of "use of ID" policies.

    Moreover, unless you are authorized by your agency to carry a weapon, by using them as part of your authorization when questioned you are misusing your federal position to unduly influence others and create the impression that there is official status where none exists.

    If ANY of this comes up in a background check, you can forget employment with the FBI. If you used an FBI ID the way you describe here, it is at the MINIMUM a 2 week suspension, and at the Maximum a firing offense.

    A private security guard at the mall may not know any of this, and could not act directly on it if he/she did. But if they check your story with your agency, you are screwed. A federal officer, could and would act directly. If that happens you will be in a serious hurt, faster than you can say Leavenworth.

    Just something to think about.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Also to add to Hawk, a large part of our modus operandi is to normalize the carry of firearms by normal people. I'm not sure hiding behind a badge, ID, or CHP helps that goal, but anyone is free to do as they please.

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    The federal ID was never involved in this encounter. I did mention I was a federal employee because she asked if I was contracted by the government for security work. But I informed her it wasn't for security purposes. But I see your point. And I definitely won't be wearing the fed ID out in public while I'm carrying.

    Speaking of which, regarding VA concealed law, can off duty LEOs conceal carry without a permit?

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Well when I was new to OC on a few occasions I would clip my CHP on my belt or shirt in a plastic ID holder. I have since seen the light, one it isn't neccessary or useful, and two as I stated before counter productive to the cause of OC.

  16. #16
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    nickerj1 wrote:
    The federal ID was never involved in this encounter.* I did mention I was a federal employee because she asked if I was contracted by the government for security work.* But I informed her it wasn't for security purposes.* But I see your point.* And I definitely won't be wearing the fed ID out in public while I'm carrying.

    Speaking of which, regarding VA concealed law, can off duty LEOs conceal carry without a permit?
    Yes, but based on your description, you are not in that category. It is part of the Code of Virginia section 18.2-308

    Regards

    EDIT: Were I you, I would not even tell them I worked of the Fed if I was off duty. But thats me.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Oh, I know that. But from above you made it sound that if an off-duty FBI agent was carrying (obviously if it was OC in VA, it wouldn't matter but just for argument sake), and was questioned about it, if he presented his FBI ID he'd get suspended? That doesn't sound right to me.

    By the way, thanks for the tips guys.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    FBI Agents are taught not to OC off duty. Most are not in favor of OC, because they are trained to a low profile life style and appearance.

    In any case if they are stopped by local Law Enforcement, off duty, and they show their ID they are suspended at a minimum and fired for subsequent offenses. This is a zero tolerance policy.

    They are not supposed to mention the FBI in local Law enforcement encounters when off duty period.

    I recognize the conundrum you are pointing out, but concealed is concealed. Technically they are never really off duty, but there is a difference between on duty and law enforcement purposes.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    I went to Fair Oaks today to pick up a suit from Jos A Bank, sorta after work, so again I was wearing work clothes and open carrying. I parked at the Macy's, which is right next to the Jos A Bank, but decided I wanted some Coldstone too. I then realized I should get the ice cream before the suit, that way I'm not walking around the mall carrying a huge suit. While in the Coldstone I noticed a short female security guard waiting for me outside.

    She gestured for me to come over while I was exiting, so I went and approached her.

    .. snip ...

    Then we talked about VT for a little while and she asked I pick up my suit as soon as possible and then leave. And that she'd have 5 or 6 calls from worried customers about me and didn't want to have to deal with it. All and all she was nice, and I understand she's told to ask for ID and write all that down even though I'm not doing anything wrong.

    What are everyone elses experiences at Fair Oaks? I saw that someone ate at the Champs there and didn't have a problem with security.
    Good job with the dialog. It seems from the start that she did not really want to bother you and did advise people complained about you.

    It would have been better had she walked up and said "I am {insert your name here} with mall security. Several customers have called in to report your in the mall with a gun. I see it is holstered and am required to ask you about it so I can report it back to my supervisor.

    Had you asked like a jerk... I am confident she would have ejected you. I know the fair oaks mall does have a police officer that walks around all day. I believe that is his assigned area.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I work on the Fair Oaks Mall perimeter road. I've been tempted several times to OC in the mall, but since I lock the gun in the car while I'm at work, I usually don't get it out while I go to lunch.

    You don't say what "work clothes" are for you. Is it a uniform?

    I'm not criticizing you at all. I wouldn't be in a uniform, so any interaction I had would probably be different. I think you did as you needed. I probably would have prefaced it with "As I'm sure you know, I don't need a permit or official position to carry openly in Virginia."

    Seems to me she was more worried about having to answer a few calls than having you OC on mall property. That indicates 2 things:
    - She's there so she doesn't have to work for a living.
    - The mall doesn't have a "no guns" policy.

    So I think next week (I'm off site the rest of this week) I'll OC over there.

    Any time anyone wants to do lunch at the mall there, or meet immediately after work, just give a shout. We can meet for coffee or whatever.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    I work on the Fair Oaks Mall perimeter road. I've been tempted several times to OC in the mall, but since I lock the gun in the car while I'm at work, I usually don't get it out while I go to lunch.

    You don't say what "work clothes" are for you. Is it a uniform?

    I'm not criticizing you at all. I wouldn't be in a uniform, so any interaction I had would probably be different. I think you did as you needed. I probably would have prefaced it with "As I'm sure you know, I don't need a permit or official position to carry openly in Virginia."

    Seems to me she was more worried about having to answer a few calls than having you OC on mall property. That indicates 2 things:
    - She's there so she doesn't have to work for a living.
    - The mall doesn't have a "no guns" policy.

    So I think next week (I'm off site the rest of this week) I'll OC over there.

    Any time anyone wants to do lunch at the mall there, or meet immediately after work, just give a shout. We can meet for coffee or whatever.
    Please do OC there and let us know. I would be very curious to hear your report.


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  22. #22
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    Good point... The Fair Oaks Mall does not have a "No Gun Policy"

    yet...






  23. #23
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    Tess wrote
    You don't say what "work clothes" are for you. Is it a uniform?
    Shirt and tie and dress pants. Like someone else suggested above, I seriously doubt anyone called in and complained. The guys behind the counter at the Coldstone were noticeably extra respectful to me compared to the other people in line.


    And I didn't want to pull the "I don't have to tell you anything" cause malls are all privately owned and they usually ban for that kinda stuff.

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    nickerj1 wrote:

    And I didn't want to pull the "I don't have to tell you anything" cause malls are all privately owned and they usually ban for that kinda stuff.
    Good decision... Education vs "who are you?" I think goes a long way. The mall is not a gun free zone and security could at any time contact the people in charge in regards to putting up signs.

    IMOKeeping it on a nice level will help keep those thoughts out of mall securities heads.

  25. #25
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    First you say:

    LEO 229 wrote:
    Good point... The Fair Oaks Mall does not have a "No Gun Policy"

    yet...
    Then, 12 hours later you say:

    The mall is gun free and security could at any time contact the people in charge in regards to putting up signs.
    Bolds above added by me for emphasis...

    Make up your mind
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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