What localities? Any unusual facts/circumstances? What have you do to get the police behavior corrected so far?
Thread: open carry
I have my LTCF but I also have been open carrying also, twice in as many days I have had different cops take me down by their guns drawn to see why I was carrying and try to tell me that I am in the wrong for carrying open. No matter how nice you are or try to explain your not breaking any laws they insist on getting upset and threatening jail for "creating pandemonium". The only pandemonium that I seen that was being created was by them pulling their weapons on me and treating me like some wanted killer because that drew attention then. I know the laws on it and know I am in the right but without giving up my right to open carry does anyone know how to stop this type of abuse? Its almost like the local cops everywhere don't even know the law, one of the cops even told me that my LTCF means to carry it concealed and I tried to explain that I didn't even need that to open but I lost the argument. Two cities are Lehighton and Wilkes Barre
What localities? Any unusual facts/circumstances? What have you do to get the police behavior corrected so far?
Hmm sounds like I may need to take a trip up to Lehighton soon...
How did you end the confrontations, though?
no unusual circumstances where involved and they both were ended by me taking it off my side and putting it in my glove box so they would leave. was told that if seen carrying like that again would go to jail. I didn't need the hassle so I just put in car. I did contact the departments to complain but was told that it is at the discretion of the officer and I presume they are not taught the laws on guns at all so they make their own laws up as they go. I didn't like being treated like a criminal and having a cop draw his weapon on me and having people then look at me like I was some wanted criminal or something, made it very uneasy.
Edited to add I apparently was typing this as you posted that last reply.
Well, more details on both events would be very helpful.
If what you say is true, and you were illegally detained for no more than lawful open carry you need to file complaints and/or sue.
I also suggest you check this thread:
Again, I would be VERY interested in hearing the full details of these encounters, particularly the Wilkes-Barre one. I am the only person I know who OC's in WB and I have sent the above linked memo to WB twp and city PD's just last week.
jnascar wrote:On what charges? Baloney of course.... was told that if seen carrying like that again would go to jail.
BS and illegal. Official oppression....I did contact the departments to complain but was told that it is at the discretion of the officer and I presume they are not taught the laws on guns at all so they make their own laws up as they go....
I HIGHLY recommend you pursue this legally. Easy lawsuit if it is as you claim.
PS: WHat date did this happen?
Do you have any witnesses to pursue a case, though?
You need to make official complaints to each department in writing citing the officers involved, and asking that they be corrected as to your right to carry openly, with and without a LTCF, and that it is inappropriate to draw guns on citizens without cause, and that the officers should not be editorializing their eprsonal views or making official threats of arrest in re lawful conduct.
A simple one page letter should suffice.
If you don't do this, nothing will get fixed. If you do do it, the department will be on notice that there is a problme in the field.
PA residents - time to do some OCing in these two localities.
imperialism2024 wrote:Witnesses are helpful but nit necessary.Do you have any witnesses to pursue a case, though?
Not knowing the circumstances (was there a call? did they just happen to see you?)
perhaps there is squad car video....
First thing to do is file a FOIA request on the call/incident. If it is well documented a lawsuit should be easy
That is complete and utter ********! Yes the first thing you need to do is to file complaints with their departments as well as send a copy of it to the attorney general.
I would seriously consider a lawsuit.
A COP DREW ON YOU! That is the last thing they should do WTH were they thinking! You need for the love of god to persue this.
I also ask if you will to visit www.pafoa.org/forum and repost this in the Concealed / Open Carrying forum. There are a few police officers and a few lawyers that hover about which can help you out with suggestions.
I have heard some bad things about Wilkes Barre, but this is Over the top oppression IMHO.
Yup, this is as bad as it gets without someone being injured.
What they did was illegal and the offending dept needs to be reprimanded to the full extent possible.
Please feel free to contact me off list (I PM'd you my email) if you would like to discuss your situation, options and intentions. I'd be willing to help as much as possible.
I would really be interested in when this happened. Since I just sent WB twp and WB city the OC training memo. If they did this after then they are just that much more out of line...
Doesn't suprise me about the WB cops. I highly doubt they know anything about "open carry".
There is no "creating pandemonium" charge in PA. They may have meant disorderly conduct, however the charge doesn't fit because the act of open carry is a legal and legitimate act of the person.
They obviously don't know how to read and comprehend what they are reading since the LTC "allows" you to carry concealed, it does not require you to do so.
Maybe you should fire off a letter to the Times Leader or Citizen's Voice which are the newspapers in WB.
By the way, when did the WB incident happen?
Mike wrote:Lehighton is not too far away from me, and I would be willing to go up there, when I know that I will not have a gun drawn on me for OCing....PA residents - time to do some OCing in these two localities.
This is very disturbing to me and needs to be followed up on for sure. Any others out there up for this?
I'm willing.Lehighton is not too far away from me, and I would be willing to go up there, when I know that I will not have a gun drawn on me for OCing. This is very disturbing to me and needs to be followed up on for sure. Any others out there up for this?
I just printed a OC training memo that I will mail tomorrow to Lehighton PD.
Looky what I found:
From the Lehighton PD "mission" page
[line]Mission Statement It is the mission of the Borough of Lehighton Police Department to serve the community in a manner that enhances the quality of life. We will work in the cooperation with community, elected representatives, and Borough officials to enhance the quality of life by:
We are accountable to each other and to the community we serve. We are open to constructive criticism and will thorougly investigate complaints against our department. [emphasis mine] Teamwork, among ourselves, members of the community, government officials, and other law enforcement agencies will cvombine our backgrounds and skills to meet our goals.
- Protecting the rights of all people [emphasis mine]
- Reducing crime and accidents through enforcement and education
- Preserving peace, order and safety
- Acting as a resource for the community
- Creating and maintaining active police/community partnerships
- Providing continuous training and educational development to our department
Look what else I found:
The form to send e-mail to the department doesn't work I tried to send this message several times.
If you get multiple copies of this it is because I have tried to send it several times but keep recieveing this error message
"ERROR: no E-mail address given. Action Failed! "
I'm very concerned that your law enforcement officers are unaware that it is completely not illegal to carry a firearm openly. Here are the relevant statues and PA supreme court rulings on the matter. Please advise your officers to not stop or harass person solely based on the open carrying of a firearm as it it not illegal to do so.
Ted John Noga (see below)
Commonwealth v. Hawkins
In all parts of Pennsylvania, persons who are licensed may carry concealed firearms. 18 Pa.C.S. § 6108. *Except in Philadelphia, firearms may be carried openly without a license*. See Ortiz v. Commonwealth, ___ Pa. ___, ___, 681 A.2d 152, 155 (1996) (*only in Philadelphia must a person obtain a license for carrying a firearm whether it is unconcealed or concealed; in other parts of the Commonwealth, unconcealed firearms do not require a license*). The Commonwealth takes the radical position that police have a duty to stop and frisk when they receive information from any source that a suspect has a gun. Since it is not illegal to carry a licensed gun in Pennsylvania,4 it is difficult to see where this shocking idea originates, notwithstanding the Commonwealth's fanciful and histrionic references to maniacs who may spray schoolyards with gunfire and assassins of public figures who may otherwise go undetected. Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not -- such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public. Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of conflict where none need exist.* Contrary to the Commonwealth's view, the public will receive its full measure of protection by police who act within the restraints imposed on them by Art. I, § 8 of the Constitution of Pennsylvania and this court's relevant case law. Upon receiving unverified information that a certain person is engaged in illegal activity, the police may always observe the suspect and conduct their own investigation. If police surveillance produces a reasonable suspicion of criminal conduct, the suspect may, of course, be briefly stopped and questioned (the Terry investigative stop),
Commonwealth v. Ortiz
53 Pa.C.S. section 13133. Philadelphia appellants assert that they are limited by the acts of the General Assembly only if those acts are applicable in the entire commonwealth, and the firearms statute is not. In particular, they argue that in Philadelphia County, the legislature requires that a person must be licensed to carry weapons openly and not concealed from sight,*
18 Pa.C.S. section 6108, [footnote 1] whereas in all other counties of Pennsylvania, *weapons may be carried openly without a license*, 18 Pa.C.S. section 6106. [footnote 2]
Only the Issuing Authority has the Right to Confiscate a Pennsylvania LTCF
§ 6109. Licenses
Revocation.--A license to carry firearms may be revoked by the issuing authority for good cause. A license to carry firearms shall be revoked by the issuing authority for any reason stated in subsection (e)(1) which occurs during the term of the permit. Notice of revocation shall be in writing and shall state the specific reason for revocation. Notice shall be sent by certified mail, and, at that time, a copy shall be forwarded to the commissioner. An individual whose license is revoked shall surrender the license to the issuing authority within five days of receipt of the notice. An individual whose license is revoked may appeal to the court of common pleas for the judicial district in which the individual resides. An individual who violates this section commits a summary offense.
LTCF Only Required if Carrying Concealed or in a Vehicle
§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
Possible Penalty for Police Actions against a citizens lawful possession of firearms
§ 5301. Official oppression.
A person acting or purporting to act in an official capacity or taking advantage of such actual or purported capacity commits a misdemeanor of the second degree if, knowing that his conduct is illegal, he: subjects another to arrest, detention, search, seizure, mistreatment, dispossession, assessment, lien or other infringement of personal or property rights; or denies or impedes another in the exercise or enjoyment of any right, privilege, power or immunity.
Terroristic threats/Disorderly conduct not applicable to lawful open carrying of a firearm
§ 2706. Terroristic threats.
(a) Offense defined. A person commits the crime of terroristic threats if the person communicates, either directly or indirectly, a threat to: commit any crime of violence with intent to terrorize another; cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transportation; or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience, or cause terror or serious public inconvenience with reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience.
(e) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "communicates" means conveys in person or by written or electronic means, including telephone, electronic mail, Internet, facsimile, telex and similar transmissions.
§ 5503. Disorderly conduct.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he: engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior; makes unreasonable noise; uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.
Legitimate purpose to open or conceal carry a firearm: Section 21. The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
Pa. Patriot wrote:Yeah, where didhe go? I am begining to wonder.......?
We need more details on these incidents.
I am here, cant be on all the time. the instances where just as I described, nothing more or nothing less other than when they drew their weapons they werent pointing them at me but at the ground. the wilkes barre was at the wilkes barre mall and the cop was one that is attached to the mall, (they have a sub division there). You cant argue with them or you will go to jail, plain and simple and I cant go to jail even if the charge is bogus, I just feel that local cops should be trained a little better in the law
jnascar wrote:OK, fine. Make a simple complaint to each police chief. This bad behavior will be frowned upon and most likley go away. let us know how this turns out.,I am here, cant be on all the time. the instances where just as I described, nothing more or nothing less other than when they drew their weapons they werent pointing them at me but at the ground. the wilkes barre was at the wilkes barre mall and the cop was one that is attached to the mall, (they have a sub division there). You cant argue with them or you will go to jail, plain and simple and I cant go to jail even if the charge is bogus, I just feel that local cops should be trained a little better in the law
Mike wrote:...in writing!Make a simple complaint to each police chief. ,
Also, it woul be very helpful to know WHEN (date) this happened in WB.
Any updatess? Did you contact the Chiefs of each department?
BUMP!! Any updates??
Hey PaPatriot -- Would you mind posting responses you recieve from the Police?
steveforopen wrote:Sure will, if I get any.Hey PaPatriot -- Would you mind posting responses you recieve from the Police?
So far I have not.
Will update the memo thread:
If I get any