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Thread: PSP thumbing nose at AG's opinion

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    WARNING!!!




    PSP MAY ARREST THOSE CARRYING ON A NON-RESIDENT PERMIT!!!


    I've been working with area legislators to get the non-resident carry issue resolved. Although our pro-2nd Amendment AG, Tom Corbett, has correctly stated on his website that non-resident carry is OK under PA state law, the Pennsylvania State Police are insisting otherwise.

    Here is what PA State Representative Mark Longietti wrote to me on 19 June 2007. (I'm also attaching a PDF of the original letter.) After you read this, understand that if you carry in PA on a non-resident permit, the PSP may arrest you. I believe a court challenge would be successful, but I certainly would not want to be the test case.

    I will post more as this situation unfolds. We will continue to work on getting this resolved.

    In the mean time, I think the Legislature should consider reigning in the PSP, and requiring PSP to honor AG opinions regarding our laws, instead of taking a cavalier attitude.Gov. Ed Rendell could order the PSP to follow the law. Fast Eddy won't do so willingly though. He would need to hear from a lot of people.



    It's also high time to put an end, once-and-for-all, to the PSP's illegal handgun registry.Sometimes the PSP leadership gives me the impression they think they work for New Jersey (no offense to our friends in the People's Republic).

    Greg Murphy

    GiveMeLiberty@inbox.com

    Begin Quote:

    Dear Greg:

    Thank you for your recent correspondence on reciprocity agreements to carry a firearm within Pennsylvania. Ihave taken your concerns to the Pennsylvania State Police and the Pennsylvania Attorney General's Office.

    The position of the Office of Attorney General that recognition within Pennsylvania is based upon the issuance to an individual of a valid license/permit by the reciprocal contracting state, and not on the license/permit holfer's place of residence. While the position of the Pennsylvania State Police is just the opposite.

    After speaking with both departments it all comes down to how each "interprets" the language of the law. The only way in the future to change it would be future litigation with the Pennsylvania State Police or by legislation.

    I have soke extensively with Senator Robins and will speak with him further on what we can do to assist others in the same situation.

    Again, thank you for alerting me of your concerns on reciprocity to carry concealed firearms. If I may of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

    Sincerely,

    Mark Longietti

    7th District/Mercer County



    End quote.






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    This is exactly what I've said numerous times before!!! The PSP doesn't care what the AG says because NO ONE is "checking" them! Listen, can we get an attorney from PA that is willing to take on the PA state police???!! I'm tired of the BS!!! If there is ANYBODY that isaffected by this blatant disregard of THE LAW and CAN afford to donate $1.00 or more to take a PROACTIVE position, then lets do it!!! Let's find an attorney, pay him/her and lets take the "war" directly to the PSP's doorstep! Anything else is just talk!! In my humble opinion!





    Jersey

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    Come on guys, we have to get this straight!

    The statute itself references “permits from other states”, paraphrasing, not residents of those states! The PA AG’s office is the authority under the statute to enter into reciprocal agreements with other states or to determine in the absence of such agreement if any states permit requirements meet or exceed that of PA.

    The PA AG’s office determines from which states permits are valid. If the AG states non-res permits are valid, contrary to any statutory provisions otherwise, the permits are by the authority given to the AG by the PA legislature, VALID.

    Indeed the PSP can arrest you for having a non-res permit; they can also torture a confession out of you for knowingly violating this taboo of theirs. What I am saying is they are not acting under the authority of law and such act would be a criminal.

    Do anyone else agree with me on this point?

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    lockman wrote:
    Come on guys, we have to get this straight!

    The statute itself references “permits from other states”, paraphrasing, not residents of those states! The PA AG’s office is the authority under the statute to enter into reciprocal agreements with other states or to determine in the absence of such agreement if any states permit requirements meet or exceed that of PA.

    The PA AG’s office determines from which states permits are valid. If the AG states non-res permits are valid, contrary to any statutory provisions otherwise, the permits are by the authority given to the AG by the PA legislature, VALID.

    Indeed the PSP can arrest you for having a non-res permit; they can also torture a confession out of you for knowingly violating this taboo of theirs. What I am saying is they are not acting under the authority of law and such act would be a criminal.

    Do anyone else agree with me on this point?
    Yes.




    Why can't the PSP just stick to handing out speeding tickets on the Turnpike?

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    lockman wrote:
    Come on guys, we have to get this straight!

    The statute itself references “permits from other states”, paraphrasing, not residents of those states! The PA AG’s office is the authority under the statute to enter into reciprocal agreements with other states or to determine in the absence of such agreement if any states permit requirements meet or exceed that of PA.

    The PA AG’s office determines from which states permits are valid. If the AG states non-res permits are valid, contrary to any statutory provisions otherwise, the permits are by the authority given to the AG by the PA legislature, VALID.

    Indeed the PSP can arrest you for having a non-res permit; they can also torture a confession out of you for knowingly violating this taboo of theirs. What I am saying is they are not acting under the authority of law and such act would be a criminal.

    Do anyone else agree with me on this point?

    A very large +1


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    PSP is looking at getting hit with lots of civil lawsuits if they decide to arrest a non-resident with an out of state license different from his home state.

    Any two-bit lawyer will produce the AG's comment and the case will get thrown out. The AG's Office.......and ONLY the AG's Office determine's what licenses will be honored, NOT PSP.

    How are they going to arrest someone when the AG's Office clearly states that Pennsylvania will honor valid licenses from non-residents, even if the person does not live in the state of issuance???

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    Steve in PA wrote:
    PSP is looking at getting hit with lots of civil lawsuits if they decide to arrest a non-resident with an out of state license different from his home state.

    Any two-bit lawyer will produce the AG's comment and the case will get thrown out. The AG's Office.......and ONLY the AG's Office determine's what licenses will be honored, NOT PSP.

    How are they going to arrest someone when the AG's Office clearly states that Pennsylvania will honor valid licenses from non-residents, even if the person does not live in the state of issuance???
    HOWEVER:

    Even though the PSP can't follow through with the case, after they arrest, throw in a cell with Bubba, and treat like a criminal just one law-abiding citizen for open carrying with a non-res permit, it will be sufficient to scare off more people from OCing (the chances are much slimmer of getting harassed by the PSP if one is CCing...) So, even if it is legal to OC, the PSP will be able to scare the population into following their whims. IMHO, people will not want to have their lives disrupted and reputations ruined.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Steve in PA wrote:
    PSP is looking at getting hit with lots of civil lawsuits if they decide to arrest a non-resident with an out of state license different from his home state.

    Any two-bit lawyer will produce the AG's comment and the case will get thrown out. The AG's Office.......and ONLY the AG's Office determine's what licenses will be honored, NOT PSP.

    How are they going to arrest someone when the AG's Office clearly states that Pennsylvania will honor valid licenses from non-residents, even if the person does not live in the state of issuance???
    HOWEVER:

    Even though the PSP can't follow through with the case, after they arrest, throw in a cell with Bubba, and treat like a criminal just one law-abiding citizen for open carrying with a non-res permit, it will be sufficient to scare off more people from OCing (the chances are much slimmer of getting harassed by the PSP if one is CCing...) So, even if it is legal to OC, the PSP will be able to scare the population into following their whims. IMHO, people will not want to have their lives disrupted and reputations ruined.
    This is exactly my point! NOBODY wants a disruption of life, therefore, I say let's take the "batlle" directly to the PSP. We find a gun-friendly attorney to write the PSP and remind them of what the PA AG's position is on the matter. This letter should also remind them of the civil ramifications of unlawful arrests. I understand what many people are saying here but I think we need to take ACTION, not just talk about it. IMHO.



    Jersey

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    HOWEVER:

    Even though the PSP can't follow through with the case, after they arrest, throw in a cell with Bubba, and treat like a criminal just one law-abiding citizen for open carrying with a non-res permit, it will be sufficient to scare off more people from OCing (the chances are much slimmer of getting harassed by the PSP if one is CCing...) So, even if it is legal to OC, the PSP will be able to scare the population into following their whims. IMHO, people will not want to have their lives disrupted and reputations ruined.
    Your “however”, is not in dispute. How much persecution can one take before pushing back? I am sure someone will step up and use this opportunity to put PSP in there place. The PSP is most likely blowing smoke, knowing enforcement action would result in legal action against them. It is a no win situation for the PSP.

    If questioned by PSP and a license is required, I would suggest showing a non-resident permit even if you have a PA license!


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    Suggestion:

    Since Governor Rendell is Colonel Miller's boss (PSP Commissioner), contact Gov. Rendell's office and ask why the Governor isn't directing his enforcement division (PSP)to apply the law as interpreted by the legal division of Pennsylvania government (PA AG).

    According to the state Consitution, The Attorney General is the chief law enforcement officer in Pennsylvania. He is also the chief legal officer. The PSP should conform its enforcement practices to the AG's judgements. It's ultimately the Governor's responsibility to make sure that happens. The fact that there seems to be a discrepancy between what the AG says is legal and what the PSP considers legal is Gov. Ed Rendell's fault, and casts a negative light on the performance of his administration.

    Be polite but firm.

    Contact info from the Gov.'s website:

    Contact the Governor


    To e-mail the Governor:

    http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Governor/govmail.html

    To write a letter to the Governor send to:
    Governor Edward G. Rendell's Office
    225 Main Capitol Building
    Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17120


    To telephone the Governor call:
    (717) 787-2500.



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    This is all rather moot. Any interface between a person with an out of state permit is likely to take place during a traffic stop.

    According to the Uniform Firearms Code any valid permit from any State or the US is valid for car carry in PA. Just interpret the law yourself.

    SO......... Like Mr Hillary said ,"Don't ask, Don't tell"......... What the PSP doesn't know can't hurt you.

    § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.


    (a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

    1. Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
    2. Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
    3. The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
    4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.
    5. Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
    6. Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
    7. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
    8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
    9. Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
    10. Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
    11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

    So to review ANY valid permit is good for car carry in PA. Open carry without a permit is LEGAL in all of PA ,except Philadelphia. So carry your gun openly, and when you get stopped, just state you are following the law as interpreted by the PSP.

    I think someone from the Nanny State of Philadelphia has the ear of PSP brass.
    We need to reel in the PSP just like the BATF. Their job is not to INTERPRET the law. That is the purview of the Judicial system

    Maybe we should start a grass roots movement to make the PSP into a strictly Highway Patrol type organization. Let the write traffic tickets and keep their mitts off off our freedoms! __________________

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    Neobayer wrote:
    § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

    11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
    :celebrate:celebrate Whup - there it is. :celebrate:celebrate

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    Neobayer wrote:
    Maybe we should start a grass roots movement to make the PSP into a strictly Highway Patrol type organization.
    Though as I understand it, the PSP provides police services to the rural areas encompassing much of PA, so that wouldn't be very feasible. Though I could be wrong.

    At any rate, regardless of what legislation says, you need to ask whether you want to be the one who is falsely imprisoned, loses his job, and loses his reputation while waiting for a successful test case. And even beyond that, it would involve hoping that the case turns out well, or else said person would then lose his legal right to possess firearms in the first place, if the gun-snatchers in the state government have their way.

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    i figured something like this would pop up.

    even though I have several other state CCW that are recognized by PA ... I went out of the way to get my nonresident PA carry permit through the Centre County Sheriff's office. it's just a little more expensive than NH with the same amount of minimal paperwork.

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    Just a note...as far as the Governor (Fast Eddie) is concerned....it is my opinion he would like to take all our guns.

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    Chris wrote:
    Just a note...as far as the Governor (Fast Eddie) is concerned....it is my opinion he would like to take all our guns.
    Naturally, since once guns are outlawed, there will be no crime, like in the UK and the District of Columbia.

    Perhaps he should go hunting with Dick Cheney...

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    Yeah right. I have read that where guns were outlawed crime increased.

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    Chris wrote:
    Yeah right. I have read that where guns were outlawed crime increased.
    Before the thread goes too OT, http://www.gunfacts.info/

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