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Thread: Process Servers and Guns

  1. #1
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    I don't know why people want to hassle process servers. But they do. Perhaps it is because they are sometimes rather pushy. Had a process server (with a passenger)whip into my driveway recently earlyon a Saturday morning while I was working on my car. Heparked crossways and jumped out (car still lurching) with his ID dangling from his neck and asked me for Sharon Kotalkski, whoused torent the house before I did. I told him she didn't live there anymore and didn't know where she did live. The guy didthe interrupt theanswer/what-are you sure? routine on me and I repeated the answers. Then he sayed, "Well, that's too bad, cause you're served" and dropped the paper on the driveway.

    I laughed at him and told him to get the F* out of my driveway. He didn't seem to like that, but he did leave. Luckily, I was not OCing at the time. In fact, I had no weapon at all but my trusty oil dipstick in my hand. I guess he knew I meant bidness.

    Seriously, I am sure he was armed. But it really didn't matter. I can't stop the guy from leaving his little paper. He'll figure it out eventually. I am ambivalent about servers having guns. I, like Yellon says below, don't think they really need them. But the real variable is how pushy they are. And how pushy the person being served is.



    Process server association official sees no need to carry gun


    By TERENCE CORCORAN
    THE JOURNAL NEWS


    June 22, 2007

    A longtime process server and vice president of the New York State Professional Process Servers Association said yesterday that, in general, process servers don't need to be armed and should avoid confrontations.

    "If there is any type of confrontation, my advice is to always leave the scene," said Larry Yellon, who operates Intercounty Judicial Services on Long Island and is chairman of the state association's educational committee.

    "I had a process server go to a residence and the person he was looking for wasn't there. But a boyfriend or acquaintance was there and became hostile. The server left and told me that he's not going back there. I understood. The best advice is to leave. With some situations, you don't have a choice, but that's very infrequent."

    Process server Dennis Illuminate said he feared for his life Wednesday when he shot and wounded a man who he said had attacked him as he was serving divorce papers at the man's Putnam Valley home.

    State police are continuing to investigate the shooting, although they already said it appeared to be a "classic" case of self-defense.

    Yellon said process servers should always be wary when serving divorce papers.

    "It's a much more vitriolic situation than it would be in a collections or commercial case, and the process server needs to understand this," he said.

    Yellon stressed that he was not criticizing Illuminate.

    "If the police are calling it self-defense, then the process server likely had no options than to draw his gun," he said.

    But Yellon, a retired probation officer, estimated that 99 percent of process servers in New York worked unarmed.

    "There's no basis or purpose that I can see for carrying a weapon," he said. "It can only lead to a greater confrontation."

    In one notorious case, an unarmed Westchester County sheriff's deputy, Kieran Grant, was killed in November 1979 when he went to serve eviction papers on a Hastings-on-Hudson man. Grant, who took off a half-day to play golf, had left his weapon home.

    The tenant, Jose Cuellar Gonzales, who shot Grant six times, remains in state prison.

    http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070622/NEWS01/706220356/1018/NEWS02

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    Why would it matter if you were OCing?

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    HankT wrote:
    . I am ambivalent about servers having guns. I, like Yellon says below, don't think they really need them.

    Hank, this is a classic example where you but heads with most pro-2nd folks. You don't think someone should be armed, because you don't think they really need them. Do you really need a firearm??Do I??



    Please explain.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    Reverend73 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    .┬* I am ambivalent about servers having guns. I, like Yellon says below, don't think they really need them.
    ┬*
    Hank, this is a classic example where you but heads with most pro-2nd folks.┬* You don't think someone should be armed, because you don't think they really need them.┬* Do you really need a firearm??Do I??

    Please explain.
    I'm sorry, but you are going to have to rephrase that so that it does not require an answer. It is too much like a question in its present form.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    kurtmax_0 wrote:
    Why would it matter if you were OCing?
    I think the server was taking it way too seriously. I'm only guessing, but he was squirrly without actually seeing a potential threat such as a firearm. Just an assessment on my part based on his, um, dullness. Simpler transaction without one more gun in the mix is all I'm saying.

    OTOH, if he would have gone really goofy, I don't know that my oil dipstick would have been a match for his weapon (or backup guy). I'm glad that didn't happen, in any event. I was on my way to a gun show for some R & R, and A. :P



    Reverend73 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    . I am ambivalent about servers having guns. I, like Yellon says below, don't think they really need them.
    Hank, this is a classic example where you but heads with most pro-2nd folks. You don't think someone should be armed, because you don't think they really need them. Do you really need a firearm??Do I??


    Please explain.

    Well, here I go avoiding questions again... :P

    I mean it in a general sense, not a constitutional sense. Yellon's reasoning seems OK to me. Especially when the primary act involved is documenting a delivery. That's it. Just documenting a delivery of a piece of paper. I cannot see anyone ever needing deadly force to document a piece of paper being delivered.

    It's always the other stuff that causes the shooting and assaults, seems to me. My UPS driver doesn't carry, neither does the postal lady, nor the electric company meter reader. They all just document stuff.

    They can carry all the guns they want (constitutionally) but it's silly for them to do so (operationally) for the documention of some transaction.

    This is hardly an anti-2A position. It's just a pro-operational efficiency/effectiveness position. In fact, let me say it a bit more clearly: anyone who would interpret Yellon's or my view as anti-2A (or not pro-2A) is, um, straining.

    Now that I've not answered your Q, what do you think, R73?

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    I think I understand your logic, but I counter with the fact that me, just going about my business,do not normally need a firearm, but that doesnt mean I never will, nor should I be banned from carrying. A meter reader, does not need a firearm to do his job (unless he encounters ferocious animals or whatever), but that does not mean he would never need one while doing his job.

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    hey hank,

    from time to time i do process serving (more so now, because everyone is or has gotten their income tax returns, and are now filing for divorce). Whenever i serve in Va, I carry, serving papers in DC and MD i charge much more because i am without my favorite insurance policies. Anyways, the guy who dropped the papers in your driveway seemed like a real *****! and from my experience, i have found that i "catch more flies with honey, than vinegar!" If i post the papers i take plenty of pictures, if the service is in person i am sure to HAND deliver it. I am usually very cordial to people, because this is often a very personal matter and i just let them know what is going on, and leave (i like to be in my car and driving down the road, before they have the opportunity to finish reading page 1!). I also record video and audio of every service i do, that way i don't get torn a new one in court. I've only had one bad experience serving someone (it was in DC), and on that day i almost found myself underneath a 3/4 ton gmc sierra. With regards to my shotgun and handgun while serving, it is just like everyday life. I would rather have it/them and not need it/ them, than need it/them and not have it/them.

    Happy Carrying Hank and i do not view either as anti-2a,



    Jason

    sorry about the poor grammar and crappy train of thought, but i worked a 13 hour day, then had to do an in-person service.

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    I wonder if there might be any difference between delivery of packages, and mail, or taking a measurement of utilities a person actually wants, and having someone serve you with court papers for a situation that is hostile to your interests that you don't want?

    I wonder if anyone could ever become hostile to being served with a subpoena to appear in court or about being evicted? I wonder if anyone has ever reacted adversely to being served with hostile papers and struck out at the server?

    Oh ... wait, that's right, the original story says a Deputy sheriff was shot and killed for serving an eviction notice. Yea, process service is no different than mail delivery.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    Reverend73 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    . I am ambivalent about servers having guns. I, like Yellon says below, don't think they really need them.
    Hank, this is a classic example where you but heads with most pro-2nd folks. You don't think someone should be armed, because you don't think they really need them. Do you really need a firearm??Do I??

    Please explain.
    I'm sorry, but you are going to have to rephrase that so that it does not require an answer. It is too much like a question in its present form.

    Regards
    Don't you feel a little bit wrong for saying that now, Hawk?

    Just a leetle? :celebrate




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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    nope
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    Wow, these Kotalkski folks are HARD to find. Not a single person goes by that last name anywhere in the USA according to zabasearch.

    http://www.zabasearch.com/query1_zaba.php?sname=Kotalkski&state=ALL& ref=$ref&se=$se&doby=&city=&name_s tyle=1

    Google ain't got nothing on Kotalkski either.
    http://www.google.com/search?q=KOTAL...L_enUS227US228



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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    Well the cited author of the article TERENCE CORCORAN is in Canada and writes on economic issues. I would like to see a cite to the full text of the story per forum rules.

    Regards

    EDIT: I found a link to the story STORY
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    KodiakISGOOD wrote:
    hey hank,

    from time to time i do process serving (more so now, because everyone is or has gotten their income tax returns, and are now filing for divorce).
    This is the funniest thing I've read today. Somehow, I am sure you are right!


    KodiakISGOOD wrote:
    Anyways, the guy who dropped the papers in your driveway seemed like a real *****! and from my experience, i have found that i "catch more flies with honey, than vinegar!"
    Yah, he wasn't just rude. He was stup..., um, ineffective. Ihad no reason togive him anythingother thangoodinformation. But he had made his mindup beforehand that he was going to serve Sharon Katalski and by gum, he did it! Even though I told him information that directly affected his own performance, he simply rejected it. For no good reason. Soundslike some other folks I know....oh well. Ignorance is bliss.



    KodiakISGOOD wrote:
    Whenever i serve in Va, I carry, serving papers in DC and MD i charge much more because i am without my favorite insurance policies. ....If i post the papers i take plenty of pictures, if the service is in person i am sure to HAND deliver it. I am usually very cordial to people, because this is often a very personal matter and i just let them know what is going on, and leave (i like to be in my car and driving down the road, before they have the opportunity to finish reading page 1!). I also record video and audio of every service i do, that way i don't get torn a new one in court. I've only had one bad experience serving someone (it was in DC), and on that day i almost found myself underneath a 3/4 ton gmc sierra. With regards to my shotgun and handgun while serving, it is just like everyday life. I would rather have it/them and not need it/ them, than need it/them and not have it/them.
    Yeah, no question it can be dangerous. But like Yellon said, if it gets dangerous, it's time to leave. Let someone else serve the dman paper. In any event, you got it going on, Jason, with your style. Get in, get out, do the job--done. Continued success to you.




    KodiakISGOOD wrote:

    Happy Carrying Hank and i do not view either as anti-2a,
    Thanks Jason. You keep carrying too. And I certainly don't think Yellon's or my view is anti-2a. Hawk probably does, but, you know him.:P

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Wow, these Kotalkski folks are HARD to find. Not a single person goes by that last name anywhere in the USA according to zabasearch.
    Just a pseudonym, gents. Like Jane Doe.

    My, my, I knew you guys would check the name....but I didn't think you'd actually admit to doing it!

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    LowerHudson Online, huh? Not something I would read unless I lived in NY or NJ. I was born and raised and have a LOT of amily and friends in NJ and NY and have still never heard of it. Interesting....

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    BobCav wrote:
    LowerHudson Online, huh?┬* Not something I would read unless I lived in NY or NJ.┬* I was born and raised and have a LOT of amily and friends in NJ and NY and have still never heard of it.┬* Interesting....
    Yea. Well since you have been there, is open carry LEGAL there? I have only driven through the area a few time and don't really stop very often, but if memory serves ...
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Wow, these Kotalkski folks are HARD to find. Not a single person goes by that last name anywhere in the USA according to zabasearch.
    Just a pseudonym, gents. Like Jane Doe.

    My, my, I knew you guys would check the name....but┬* I didn't think you'd actually admit to doing it!
    Why wouldn't they admit it. They don't post falshoods, and they answer questions directly when they are put to them directly.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  19. #19
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    Well the cited author of the article TERENCE CORCORAN is in Canada and writes on economic issues. I would like to see a cite to the full text of the story per forum rules.

    Regards

    EDIT: I found a link to the story STORY
    Hawk, I had a link to the story in my original post! What forum rule are you talking about?

    Or are you just failing to read stuff in my posts again? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!:shock:

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    Regular Member IanB's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    My, my, I knew you guys would check the name....but I didn't think you'd actually admit to doing it!
    What's wrong with using "the google"?

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    LowerHudson Online, huh? Not something I would read unless I lived in NY or NJ. I was born and raised and have a LOT of amily and friends in NJ and NY and have still never heard of it. Interesting....
    Yea. Well since you have been there, is open carry LEGAL there? I have only driven through the area a few time and don't really stop very often, but if memory serves ...
    Um, not unless you want to have one Vermonter's favorite NJ State Troopers knees in your back and a muzzle at the back of your head. I know quite a few troopers. I used to install Police Radios all over North NJ. You'd be surprised at who I know...hehe...

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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Wow, these Kotalkski folks are HARD to find. Not a single person goes by that last name anywhere in the USA according to zabasearch.
    Just a pseudonym, gents. Like Jane Doe.

    My, my, I knew you guys would check the name....but I didn't think you'd actually admit to doing it!
    Why wouldn't they admit it. They don't post falshoods, and they answer questions directly when they are put to them directly.
    Hawk, it was PAINFULLY obvious the name was italicized with the intention of drawing attention to it. Is it still a trap when you KNOW it is?? Actually it was sad to see. I have already said I was trying to track Hank online, so I have only been caught doing that which I have already stated I was doing!! However, in doing so, the reaction revealed so much more anout HankT than the "revelation" that I was searching for him. LOL...

    I couldn't PAY for this much entertainment in a downtown club!! LMAO....

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    Hawkflyer wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    Well the cited author of the article TERENCE CORCORAN is in Canada and writes on economic issues. I would like to see a cite to the full text of the story per forum rules.

    Regards

    EDIT: I found a link to the story STORY
    Hawk, I had a link to the story in my original post! What┬* forum rule are you talking about?┬*

    Or are you just failing to read stuff in my posts again? I'm shocked, shocked I┬* tell you!:shock:
    I had no reason to believe your link was any good. After all the name you provided in your post was not the truth. So why would I believe anything else you post. You see Hank, lying is like pregnancy, you can't be just a little pregnant, and you can't be just a little dishonest. Its one of those absolutes you refuse to admit. Either you lie in your posts or you don't. Either you are fully honest, or you lack candor.

    You just stated above where you are on the scale.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  24. #24
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    BobCav wrote:
    Public Service Announcement:

    There is no Sharon Kotalkski or even Sharon Kotalski in the entire US according to Intellius.
    nakedshoplifter wrote:
    Wow, these Kotalkski folks are HARD to find. Not a single person goes by that last name anywhere in the USA according to zabasearch.
    Just a pseudonym, gents. Like Jane Doe.

    My, my, I knew you guys would check the name....but I didn't think you'd actually admit to doing it!
    Why wouldn't they admit it. They don't post falshoods, and they answer questions directly when they are put to them directly.

    Didn't I answer Reverend73's question, Hawk?

    (I can always tell, btw, when you are agitated, Hawk. Your punctuation and spelling goes to shizzit...)

    Hawk, maybe you can cook up a new forum rule that says "No pseudonyms allowed!--by those with over 1000 posts!"

    Give it a try.


  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    ...SNIP
    (I can always tell, btw, when you are agitated, Hawk. Your punctuation and spelling goes to shizzit...)
    SNIP...
    Don't mistake agitation for typing speed and a full work week. Oh yea, you may not be familiar with working full time, some of us are.

    No you did not answer his question. But later you will lie to the forum and say you did.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

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