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How long before the War for Civil Rights??

Republidog

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Considering our government's actions after Katrina...I do not have much hope.

National guard, police and private Blackwater contractors confiscated guns by force. I did not hear of any of them refusing to carry out these unconstitutional orders nor did I hear of citizens resisting.

Sit down and really think about that for a minute...or longer.

When push came to shove...they shoved...and that was it.

All that's needed is a big enough "crisis" and there won't be much left at all.
 

Comp-tech

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openryan wrote:
Comp-tech wrote:
A bit too extreme for my liking, however I am in agreement with him on this...

The law also facilitates militarized police round-ups and detention of protesters, so called "illegal aliens," "potential terrorists" and other "undesirables" for detention in facilities already contracted for and under construction by Halliburton. That's right. Under the cover of a trumped-up "immigration emergency" and the frenzied militarization of the southern border, detention camps are being constructed right under our noses, camps designed for anyone who resists the foreign and domestic agenda of the Bush administration.
These are the ones that trouble me...how long 'till people like us (OCDOers) are "labeled"?
 

CPerdue

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"The law also facilitates militarized police round-ups and detention of protesters, so called "illegal aliens," "potential terrorists" and other "undesirables" for detention in facilities already contracted for ..."

Um, I'm calling BS until someone posts a picture and location of such a camp. Are the Minutemen, "frenzied militarization"? C'mon people, this is fearmongering. Keep your powder dry for something useful.

Off topic, but did anyone ever notice that all that seems to be left of dead empires is the walls they built on their borders? I'm thinking Hadrian's wall (Rome), the Chineese wall which didn't stop the Mongols, lots of little Hellenic city-states. Walls are a last-ghasp effort to compensate for a failed foreign policy and they have never worked. Instead of a border fence, we should call up Mexico and say, "You seal the border or we cancel NAFTA." Maybe I've found the topic of my next congressional missive ...

C.
 

CPerdue

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Republidog wrote:
Considering our government's actions after Katrina...I do not have much hope.

National guard, police and private Blackwater contractors confiscated guns by force. I did not hear of any of them refusing to carry out these unconstitutional orders nor did I hear of citizens resisting.

Sit down and really think about that for a minute...or longer.

When push came to shove...they shoved...and that was it.

All that's needed is a big enough "crisis" and there won't be much left at all.

This is much in mind. I did hear of people resisting - lots of stuff on these boards actually about people setting up community watches (dare I say 'militias'?). There were other kinds of push-back as well.

And the ones who did the confiscations got spanked. No, it didn't help in the moment but it did lead to better law here in Va.

I have to assume civility on the part of public officials (and most other people I meet). My duty is to project an air of the same, especially when OC. This means that they are not disposed to do anything by force, and I am not going to trigger a riteous self-defence from them (i.e., disarming and locking me up).

I am pondering what converts civilized people into barbarians, even temporarially. I think we may have the most to be concerned about from people who start out unprepared for some crisis (incompetent politician/bureaucrat), then get scared and excited because they don't know what to do (fire, storm, etc.), and finally act precipitously (disarm little 'ol ladys). Found relaxed at a back-yard BBQ, the guys involved would probably not feel the need to disarm anybody.

Finally then, how do we break this chain? Get rid of the fear perhaps by removing the perception of responsibility from officialdom. I defused a tense situation yesterday by telling someone, "this is not your problem." This may not work with a busybody, white knight, or the power-hungry, but it did work with a person of good will who was just trying to keep the paperwork straight.
 

Republidog

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http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/47/17936

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/010206detentioncamps.htm

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/Halliburton-Detention-Camps31jan06.htm

http://www.prisonplanet.com/211103martiallaw.html

Tommy Franks said:

[size="-1"]“It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world – it may be in the United States of America – that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps, very, very important.”

[/size]
[size="-1"]“As I look at President Bush, I think he will ultimately be judged as a man of extremely high character. A very thoughtful man, not having been appraised properly by those who would say he’s not very smart. I find the contrary. I think he’s very, very bright. And I suspect that he’ll be judged as a man who led this country through a crease in history effectively. Probably we’ll think of him in years to come as an American hero.”[/size]
[size="-1"]][/size]
 

Legba

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Franks describes Bush as someone instrumental in"unraveling the fabric of our Constitution" who yet has "extremely high character" and is"very thoughtful" and "very, very bright," and is indeed "an American hero"?

Is this meant as ironic or just moronic?

-ljp
 

DreQo

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Great responses so far, I'm glad this hasstruck up such a good conversation.

To put the smoking thing to rest, YES I know the chlorine comment was waaay extreme (read my original post, I SAID it was extreme lol). And you're right, cars give off a lot more nasty crap....but people don't park their cars inside restaurants and let them idle.

Smoking on your own time on your own property is your own business. I personally don't think the benefits are any where near the consequences (notice I didn't say risks), but it IS you choice.

When it all boils down to it, I have only THREE problems with cigarettes. 1.) They shouldn't be allowed in enclosed public areas, 2.) They should not be allowedaround people who can't choose to leave (i.e. babies), and 3.) Cigarettes should be made naturally, with tobacco and what have you. All that extra crap they throw in there does nothing but addict people, which (in a twisted way) strips you of your freedom to choose whether or not you want to smoke.

And to clarify, the majority of deaths in my extended family to date have been tobacco related, so I AM bias on the subject...
 

DreQo

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Let me propose to everyone a scenerio:

You have, in your house, legally owned firearms. There has been a legitmate, large scale emergency in your area, and "they" determine that, for a period of time, all firearms must be confiscated in order to ensure the safety of the public. Before you have a chance to contact anyone to question this obviously unconstitutional decision, two policeman show up at your door stating they know you have firearms and that you must surrender them.

For the sake of the scenerio, this happens tomorrow.

What would you do?? Try to reason with them? If that didn't work? Give in? Lock them out? What if they tried to break in? How far would you go?

I honestly don't know what I would do. Part of my mind starts chanting "cold dead fingers, cold dead fingers.." while the other part of my mind says "umm yeah, even if I think I'm right according to the constitution, I am DEFINATELY going to spend quite a few nights in jail for this."

So what would you do?
 

Hawkflyer

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There are really two facets, scenarios if you will, to this issue. The first is a slow progression of laws over time that strip people of their rights at an almost imperceptible pace. The boiling frog plan. The second is some catastrophic event or series of events. These two scenarios unfold in significantly different ways.

In the first. people will not react until it is far to late to effect change. Moreover, people coming from more restrictive cultures, will not only accept more restriction, but they will demand them. This will spring from a misguided failure of our society to assimilate rather than accommodate these people. While a number of small isolated attempts to resist have and will continue to occur, the participants will first be marginalized, demonized, and removed on demand of the majority as a threat to order and civilized society. You need look no farther than the many militia movements and their treatment from government to see this happening.

In the second scenario, some event occurs that requires government action that is in effect a declaration of Martial Law. We actually see this on occasion in incidents like Katrina, and September 11, 2001. So far as close as we have actually come to total Marshal Law was 9/11/2001. In that incident ALL aircraft were grounded nation wide. Armed guards showed up in places people had never seen them before, military aircraft filled the air in major city airspace, and people were encouraged to report ANY suspicious activities they saw. These reports were to be made against your coworkers, neighbors and friends.

Under a national declaration of Marshal Law the Constitution is suspended as the law of the land. Once this happens, any resistance will be met by massive and effective government action to put down resistance. Under these conditions, individuals and small groups will not stand a chance of effectively resisting. There will be resistance, that is certain. But it will be quickly put down.

In the aftermath of such an event, most of the reactionary people will be gone, leaving only those who are compliant to carry forward. The post Marshal Law society will be more restrictive of civil liberties, and meet less resistance from the populace, who will view the lifting of marshal law as a liberalization of individual liberties.

Of the two scenarios, the first is more likely than the second. But at some point when the first scenario has progressed far enough, the second scenario becomes more likely in the face of some trigger event.

As an aside, the discussion here concerning tobacco is part of the first scenario. Isolation, and demonization of ANY group, that is pursuing a legal activity, assists in the progression toward loss of individual liberties. Any time we apply a law, where civilized consensual behavior could produce the same result, we move farther from freedom, and closer to socialist/fascist restriction systems.

But I fear I will be long gone before either of these scenarios plays out, as I will have been identified, demonized and eliminated long before the final series of events. So for me, your original question, while interesting academically, will not really have much practical application.

Regards
 

Comp-tech

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Hawkflyer wrote:
There are really two facets, scenarios if you will, to this issue. The first is a slow progression of laws over time that strip people of their rights at an almost imperceptible pace. The boiling frog plan. The second is some catastrophic event or series of events. These two scenarios unfold in significantly different ways.
+1 Hawk.....very well written
 

Comp-tech

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DreQo wrote:
When it all boils down to it, I have only THREE problems with cigarettes. 1.) They shouldn't be allowed in enclosed public areas, 2.) They should not be allowedaround people who can't choose to leave (i.e. babies), and 3.) Cigarettes should be made naturally, with tobacco and what have you. All that extra crap they throw in there does nothing but addict people, which (in a twisted way) strips you of your freedom to choose whether or not you want to smoke.
I, even as a smoker, have to agree with you on this....well said
 

Comp-tech

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DreQo wrote:
Let me propose to everyone a scenerio:

You have, in your house, legally owned firearms. There has been a legitmate, large scale emergency in your area, and "they" determine that, for a period of time, all firearms must be confiscated in order to ensure the safety of the public. Before you have a chance to contact anyone to question this obviously unconstitutional decision, two policeman show up at your door stating they know you have firearms and that you must surrender them.

For the sake of the scenerio, this happens tomorrow.

What would you do?? Try to reason with them? If that didn't work? Give in? Lock them out? What if they tried to break in? How far would you go?

I honestly don't know what I would do. Part of my mind starts chanting "cold dead fingers, cold dead fingers.." while the other part of my mind says "umm yeah, even if I think I'm right according to the constitution, I am DEFINATELY going to spend quite a few nights in jail for this."

So what would you do?
I can only hope that "they" will follow the laws stopping arms confiscation, federal and state, that have been put into place since Katrina.
I feel kinda' the same way you do on this...."I honestly don't know what I would do"....I hope I never have to find out.
 

Republidog

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If "they" were confiscating guns at a local level for a local situation I would probably turn them over KNOWING that I could leave with my life and later would absolutely file a civil suit against the agencies and exact officers involved and make major press about it.

If it were a final "we're confiscating all guns" or a "we're taking your arms and forcibly taking you and your family to a "rest and relocation center"...well I would most likely not do as in the above scenario...
 

CPerdue

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Hawkflyer wrote:
As an aside, the discussion here concerning tobacco is part of the first scenario. Isolation, and demonization of ANY group, that is pursuing a legal activity, assists in the progression toward loss of individual liberties. Any time we apply a law, where civilized consensual behavior could produce the same result, we move farther from freedom, and closer to socialist/fascist restriction systems...

Leave it to this guy to find a cogent point in something I was discounting. Shame on me.
 

Comp-tech

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CPerdue wrote:
Um, I'm calling BS until someone posts a picture and location of such a camp. Are the Minutemen, "frenzied militarization"? C'mon people, this is fearmongering. Keep your powder dry for something useful.
"Ask and ye shall recieve"

http://nwowatcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=115.0

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_police_state.html#concentration ....note that all text is a link

Crap load of stuff here http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives.html that should scare the hell out of all of us.
 

DreQo

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BobCav wrote:
I rather like the sound of the "Second American Revolution" better.



Oh, and it's already begun in our hearts and minds......
Yeah, that does fit rather well. And now that I think about it, this is probably the only country in which we could freely have this discussion in the first place....so that's saying something..
 

casullshooter

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BobCav wrote:
I rather like the sound of the "Second American Revolution" better.



Oh, and it's already begun in our hearts and minds......
Actually it would be the Third American revolution, the Second one was from 1860-1865 . The war was one of independence as the South did not want to take over the existing Gov't but to break away and form their own country .
 

DreQo

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casullshooter wrote:
BobCav wrote:
I rather like the sound of the "Second American Revolution" better.



Oh, and it's already begun in our hearts and minds......
Actually it would be the Third American revolution, the Second one was from 1860-1865 . The war was one of independence as the South did not want to take over the existing Gov't but to break away and form their own country .
I don't know if that could be considered a revolution, since "officially" everything stayed the same as far as the laws and government were concerned. Besides, they kinda already gave that one a name...
 

molonlabetn

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DreQo wrote:
Let me propose to everyone a scenerio:

You have, in your house, legally owned firearms. There has been a legitmate, large scale emergency in your area, and "they" determine that, for a period of time, all firearms must be confiscated in order to ensure the safety of the public. Before you have a chance to contact anyone to question this obviously unconstitutional decision, two policeman show up at your door stating they know you have firearms and that you must surrender them.

For the sake of the scenerio, this happens tomorrow.

What would you do?? Try to reason with them? If that didn't work? Give in? Lock them out? What if they tried to break in? How far would you go?

I honestly don't know what I would do. Part of my mind starts chanting "cold dead fingers, cold dead fingers.." while the other part of my mind says "umm yeah, even if I think I'm right according to the constitution, I am DEFINATELY going to spend quite a few nights in jail for this."

So what would you do?

"Leave this property at once, there is nothing here which you have the authority to sieze"

They're not really authorities if they are breaking the law... I would deal with armed home invasion quite harshly. Nonetheless... I would be shocked if any of the local LE in my area went along with a confiscation order, having families of their own...
 
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