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Thread: New here... but why do you....????

  1. #1
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    Ok... I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for this but here it goes...

    First, I've been lurking here for about a month reading various posts about OC. I like reading in my State's (WA) subforum the most to see whats happening localy.

    Second, I support the rightto open carry for the most part... and I am amazed at how much missinformation there isregarding this subject. Ibelieve that even my handgun safety course instructorsaid that OC wasnot allowed in this state.

    My question is though... why do you open carry? Is there a real reason to? From several posts that I've read I get the impression that some people do it for some sort of Power trip... the guys who wanted to be a LEO, but aren't... others seem to do it because they in some way are looking for trouble, or are looking for an encounter with a LEO. Then in some posts there is what I would consider a disrespect for LEO's and/or the Law and that concerns me. LEO's, firefighters, and our men and women in the armed forces are heroes and their jobs aren't easy.

    Also... if you are OCing... wouldn't that make you a big target? As in the first target, if a BG was bent on doing his thing and sees you with a gun? Obviously there might be the situations where BG turns and leaves, because it isn't the easiest of targets with you and your gun... but there would be others still that might not.

    Be nice...

    Anyway, don't get me wrong... like I said, I support the right to OC, but I just have a few concerns...



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    I do it because I legitimately need a gun for work (gun shop) and because I can. Why spend $100-200 to get a permit when I can "cowboy carry" for free? I have no macho confrontational agenda beyond that. I even concede that most people either find me ridiculous or scary because of it, if they care at all. As for being targeted because of it, I was carjacked 6 years ago -before I started carrying -and not since. Coincidence? Maybe. I'm reminded of the words of Caligula, however:

    "Let them hate, provided they fear." (Oderint dum metuant.)

    He said that of the Senate, but if it also applies to potential carjackers, so be it.

    -ljp

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    I have a CHP, so Iopen-carry for one reason: political activism. I've weighed the tactical disadvantage and decidedI'd rather OC.

    I'm sure most hereOCfor some personal variation of political activism from what I've gleaned from several months of membership on the board. Realize that even "I OC because I'm not going to let the gov't tell me I can't carry a firearm" is a form of activism--its active.

    Yes, werun into antagonistic LEO's. Great. They are exactly the guys we are looking for.Thankfully they step right up and show themselves. Those are exactly the officers or jurisdictions that need to find out that2A rights are real.For the most part, thosejurisdictions and officers then dohear from theOC'er in the form of a complaint. They get the idea. Some require more convincing, some less.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    It's definitely a big debate you'll find on any gun board. Even the most staunch 2A supporters divide on whether or not OC should be an option, and if it is, whether or not it's even needed or ever preferable to CC.



    I say as long as it's legal (by the constitution & state laws) I'll occasionally do it for a couple reasons.

    -VA forces you to if you want to go to a place which serves alcohol (with friends, loved ones, etc.)

    - It's sometimes too hot to CC or certain clothes combinations might not allow for it

    - It's refreshing to see "good guys" with guns and it gives me or others an ice breaker when we go out

    - It's the fundamental right to self-defense embodied in a 2lb hunk of metal, as a statement to badguys

    You may be correct that you might become a larger target in specific cases, but if you and I both OC then what? What if you, me, and some other random guy OC? What if 1/10th of our population OC'ed regularly, do you think there'd be the same amount of person-on-person crime that there is today? No. I don't think so.



    Mostly it comes down to personal choice, and while I CC most of the time, OC is an option I do sometimes take advantage of, which, while turning a couple heads and sometimes getting whispered about, is my decision. Others' reactions are of little concern to me.
    -Unrequited

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    One of the best examples I found is from BobCav:



    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/3250-2.html


    "That's exactly what I've said in many posts both here and on other forums. Concealment can allow one toslip into Condition White and after a while that will be theirnormal mode without them even realizing it. Not only do they lose the situational awareness edge, to the BG's they are just another grass eater.

    Personally, I've never CC'ed on my person and don't care to. The only reason I even have a CHP is for when I'm in the car and the holster might be covered by the seatbelt and basically to cover my butt should I one day accidentally conceal. If it offends someone or alarms them, that's their own internal issues they need to resolve. A person'sright to self defense should always trumps another'scomfort factor."



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    heatho wrote:
    Ok... I'm sure I'm going to get basted for this but here it goes...

    First, I've been lurking here for about a month reading various posts about OC. I like reading in my State's (WA) subforum the most to see whats happening localy.

    Second, I support the rightto open carry for the most part... and I am amazed at how much missinformation there isregarding this subject. Ibelieve that even my handgun safety course instructorsaid that OC wasnot allowed in this state.

    My question is though... why do you open carry? Is there a real reason to? It seems like from several posts that I've read I get the impression that some people do it for some sort of Power trip... the guys who wanted to be a LEO, but aren't... others seem to do it because they in some way are looking for trouble, or are looking for an encounter with a LEO. Then in some posts there is what I would consider a disrespect for LEO's and/or the Law and that concerns me. LEO's, firefighters, and our men and women in the armed forces are heroes and their jobs aren't easy.

    Also... if you are OCing... wouldn't that make you a big target? As in the first target, if a BG was bent on doing his thing and sees you with a gun? Obviously there might be the situations where BG turns and leaves, because it isn't the easiest of targets with you and your gun... but there would be others still that might not.

    Be nice...

    Anyway, don't get me wrong... like I said, I support the right to OC, but I just have a few concerns...

    I guess I am the first one who gets to baste you :celebrate! edit: I guess I am not the first, while typing a bunch of you beat me to it!


    I understand your concerns about OC, and some of them are more legitimate than others.

    As with any highly controversial issue, firearms, abortion, religion, you will find a vast amount of misinformation and peoples 'interpretations' of the law which they in many cases try to sell to you as the 'truth'. I advise you to always verify your sources and back up anything you hear by going to the source yourself.

    Continuing--I can say with almost 100% confidence that there are some people out there, albeit a very very small subset of our culture that open carry for the rush, or they are looking for excitement, or maybe just to 'show' people. Sometimes these actions can be taken to the extreme. Some people use bad judgement -- this happens not only with firearms, but with many things in life, get used to it.

    Nobody that I have found on this forum has a disrespect for law enforcement, in fact there are many accounts, where people have contact the city first, to make sure that they are within the scope of the law by open carrying, or carrying at all, and some even go to the point to let them know that they will be carrying openly so the departments can be aware of their lawful activities.

    Furthermore, the unrest you may read from time to time from posters here regarding encounters with law officials, especially the negative ones, are to make other people aware of what is happening, not for the sole purpose of bashing law enforcement and demeaning their purpose.

    Regarding your question as to why open carry, it is purely a choice, some do, some don't. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I prefer open carry due to the simple fact it is more comfortable, and as for it being a deterrent, I do not think it is as much of a deterrent as some people may attest, but it can be nonetheless. Arguments can be made for both sides, but I am not really wanting to go into that right here and now.

    As far as being a target, it is possible. The arguement here is that most criminals look for a target that is 'easy', meaning they want as little resistance as possible, if they see someone with a gun, they will, in most cases look elsewhere.

    Your last line --
    Anyway, don't get me wrong... like I said, I support the right to OC, but I just have a few concerns...

    It sounds like your concerns here are with citizens who open carry to be on a power trip, or wanted to be an LEO, etc... However, a lot of people who see me oc'ing think I do it because I want the attention, or it makes me feel 'big', some have even gone as far as to tell me this while I am patronizing their establisments. I would like to say here I open carry for none of these reasons, solely to protect myself, loved ones, and my property, in that order. I firmly believe that people who want to believe I carry for the above reasons do so because they are against firearms in general and chalk it up to me being an extremist, this is far from the truth.

    Open carry gets a lot of attention, especially around here in NW Indiana, because nobody, well, at least a lot of people are not used to it, and do not practice it. On the same note these people think that I do so for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. All I can hope for is that these people think about some of the dangers that are out there, and that my decision to be armed was not one made in haste, but one that took careful thought and where I weighed the risks and benifits of, and my decision to be armed was made to protect myself.

    Finally, I hope you do a little more reading here, outside of the WA subforum, and see some of the interatcion that goes on around here. The purpose of this board is to educate people of their rights. Nobody is promoting the reasons you mentioned as motives to open carry.

    I think if you open carried and had a bad/negative law enforement encounter you would want to get advice on what to do, and correct the agency that made the mistake of an unlawful arrest or detention, as this has happened with quite a few members here.

    Most everyones reason to open carry, or carry at all here is pure, and solely for defensive purposes.

    Hopefully you get some better responses than mine -- I think I probably rambled on a bit here -- and I am not trying to sound condescending in the least, but I think the reasons you pointed out here account for only a small subset of the people that oc, and not for anyone that I have seen on this board.

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    Well I think you really don't support OC, or you wouldn't be asking these questions again. If you have been lurking for a month now you must have seen the other posts about OC vs CC.

    REMEMBER ONE THING.....Concealed carry is a privilige in most states and can EASILY be taken away if the right people are elected.

    You have a RIGHT to carry in alot of states and Rights are alot harder to take away. If people organize and prevent it. Ifthey don't then ......"A RIGHT UNUSED IS A RIGHT LOST"

    It's hog wash that a person who OC's is more likely to become a target then one who CC's. You don't see people attacking every police officer just because they OC, if the police were afraid of this, they wouldn't wear uniforms or OC their own weapons.

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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Well I think you really don't support OC, or you wouldn't be asking these questions again. If you have been lurking for a month now you must have seen the other posts about OC vs CC.

    REMEMBER ONE THING.....Concealed carry is a privilige in most states and can EASILY be taken away if the right people are elected.

    You have a RIGHT to carry in alot of states and Rights are alot harder to take away. If people organize and prevent it. Ifthey don't then ......"A RIGHT UNUSED IS A RIGHT LOST"

    It's hog wash that a person who OC's is more likely to become a target then one who CC's. You don't see people attacking every police officer just because they OC, if the police were afraid of this, they wouldn't wear uniforms or OC their own weapons.
    I think the myth of being a target while oc'ing is due to the fact that if there is a crime in progress, that the most dangerous threat will be taken out first, which first of all if you are oc'ing you should be very aware of your surroundings, and if you do that, this is a, just a myth.

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    Lthrnck wrote:
    Well I think you really don't support OC, or you wouldn't be asking these questions again. If you have been lurking for a month now you must have seen the other posts about OC vs CC.

    REMEMBER ONE THING.....Concealed carry is a privilige in most states and can EASILY be taken away if the right people are elected.

    You have a RIGHT to carry in alot of states and Rights are alot harder to take away. If people organize and prevent it. Ifthey don't then ......"A RIGHT UNUSED IS A RIGHT LOST"

    It's hog wash that a person who OC's is more likely to become a target then one who CC's. You don't see people attacking every police officer just because they OC, if the police were afraid of this, they wouldn't wear uniforms or OC their own weapons.
    Ok... first... this was my first post, never asked any questions before. And yes... I do support OC... for the correct reasons. I have seen other posts about OC and CC... However, I haven't spent the time to read every post on this board.

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    Also, thanks for those that have posted and I understand those reason's for OCing... except for maybe the "political activism"... Still unsure about this one. I hope this isn't the "only" reason one is OCing.

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    heatho wrote:
    Also, thanks for those that have posted and I understand those reason's for OCing... except for maybe the "political activism"... Still unsure about this one. I hope this isn't the "only" reason one is OCing.
    People may say a reason they carry is for political activism, but I think that refers more the the display of the weapson -- concealed vs. open, I am sure they choose to carry a firearm for personal defense, and only using open carry of that firearm for political activism.


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    heatho wrote:
    Also, thanks for those that have posted and I understand those reason's for OCing... except for maybe the "political activism"... Still unsure about this one. I hope this isn't the "only" reason one is OCing.
    The most important part of the equation is that one actually carries a firearm for their personal defense...

    Other than that, the reasons behind how we each do so are legion... just like there are many methods by which people speak freely or practice their religion. Some doeach of those thingsin far more public ways than others, perhaps to educate others, perhaps to stand up for something they believe in strongly.

    Do you believe in anything strongly for which you would publicly advocate? I believe in the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, strongly, among many other things.



    molonlabetn



    btw, welcome!

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    heatho wrote:
    Also, thanks for those that have posted and I understand those reason's for OCing... except for maybe the "political activism"... Still unsure about this one. I hope this isn't the "only" reason one is OCing.
    It sounds like you have some ulterior motive for posting, in that you’re asking questions for which you already seem to have reached your own opinionated conclusions.

    I carry.

    I’m not going to leave my gun home or buy and carry a tiny unreliable peashooter just because it’s too warm or uncomfortable to carry.


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    1."Cuz I CAN"

    2.Cowboy Hat,T-shirt, Denim Jeans and 100 Degrees=

    1 Kimberhttp://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols...y/protlerl.php a Serpa HolsterBlackHawk CQC SERPA Holster Matte Finish Belt Loop and Paddle
    ( or 44Mag Ruger Vaquero 5'5



    in a Triple K Deluxe Rooster Cogburn Two-Tone HolsterDeluxe Rooster Cogburn Two-Tone Belt

    3. "cool" sure

    4. "Attention"??? Justthe attentionthe PEOPLE wants togive me

    5. Uuuuuh...something about a 2nd Amendment ( meaning not needing a permit.True 2nd Amendment does NOT need any Permits. Look up Alaska and Vermont).





    Just my .45 or .44



    "with Great Power comes Great Responsibility"

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    Becuase I'm officially coming out of the gun closet.



    I'm Here, I'm Armed, Get Used To It:celebrate



    That would be a good t-shirt.


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    reefteach wrote:
    Becuase I'm officially coming out of the gun closet.



    I'm Here, I'm Armed, Get Used To It:celebrate



    That would be a good t-shirt.
    +100:celebrateOOPS Sorry forgot the MONKEYTOUCH THE MONKEY

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    heatho wrote:
    ... From several posts that I've read I get the impression that some people do it for some sort of Power trip...
    Please cite some examples. I've never seen these posts...


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    Heatho, welcome to OCDO! We can be a rowdy bunch and fun too and we'll always tell it like it is.

    You asked some very good questions and to the point of being a target to the BG's, you need to remember that a BG that walks into a convenience store with a gun isn't there to kill anyone....they want money. Period. They want to use the force of their weapon to take that which isn't theirs. The fact is that it's probably an illegal gun, they're not all that familiar with it and it is only a means to an end. It's their way of forcing you out of fear to comply with them and give them what they want. Can they use the gun? Will they? More and more are. And the other mass killings in recent history have all been in Disarmed Citizen Gun-Free Zones where they know that guns will not be in the hands of armed citizens. Should anyone there decided to CC anyway, then it obviously won't be seen anyway.

    But when I am open carrying, I've told them up front that I'm not gonna take it. I'm letting everyone know that 1) I have a gun and know how to use it; 2) It takes a big pair of brass ones to OC; 3) I probably know a lot more about the law and where and when I can carry and use the gun if necessary.

    This guy said it best - that a gun IS civilization!
    http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com...ilization.html
    All his arguments in the article only apply to openly carried firearms, because if you don't KNOW the other person has a gun, it's a moot point.

    Welcome aboard and see you around!

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    heatho wrote:
    Also... if you are OCing... wouldn't that make you a big target? As in the first target, if a BG was bent on doing his thing and sees you with a gun?
    I don't know, will it? I've never seen any data to support this idea.

    It's reasonable to assume the CC gives you a tactical advantage, because it's always easier to win a fight when your opponent doesn't know about your ace in the hole.

    But OC also "shows the flag" before the fight starts and may be a deterrent. It certainly can increase your draw speed.

    But again, I have seen no data to suggest that criminals take out OC'rs first. That may just be because OC isn't common enough to produce a good dataset, but I haven't even heard any anecdotes.

    In my case, I OC because it's comfortable in warm weather, VA requires me to do so in restaurants, I like the easy access, and I believe it is also a form of activism, reminding people that its okay to exercise the right to bear arms.

    As for your comment about a "power trip", please explain that, and post some examples to support your assertion.

    Also, you say some of us have disrespect for the law. I quote:

    others seem to do it because they in some way are looking for trouble, or are looking for an encounter with a LEO. Then in some posts there is what I would consider a disrespect for LEO's and/or the Law and that concerns me. LEO's, firefighters, and our men and women in the armed forces are heroes and their jobs aren't easy.
    1. I do not look for trouble. My goal is to be able to carry open or concealed without finding trouble, to be at ease and enjoy my freedom. To the extent that there is any trouble, it usually finds us, in the form of ignorant people and public officials.

    2. Please cite an example in which we show disrespect for LEOs. I was OC'ing with about 20 members of this forum the other day, and someone called the police on us. Since the police sided with us, shook our hands and left smiling, I would say there was respect and dignity between people there.

    That said, I have my own personal views about people who think uniformed government employees deserve automatic respect rather than having to earn it as equals among men. The other day somepolice officers earned my respect by being professional and treating me and my friends with dignity and respect and did not talk down to us. That means more to me than any uniform.

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    reefteach wrote:
    Becuase I'm officially coming out of the gun closet.



    I'm Here, I'm Armed, Get Used To It:celebrate



    That would be a good t-shirt.
    I want that T-shirt. But it ain't gonna have no dancin' banana on it.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    reefteach wrote:
    Becuase I'm officially coming out of the gun closet.



    I'm Here, I'm Armed, Get Used To It:celebrate



    That would be a good t-shirt.
    I want that T-shirt. But it ain't gonna have no dancin' banana on it.
    You just keep your dancing banana where we can't see it buster!


  22. #22
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    Actually your question about "why do you open carry" is a good one, and needs to be asked and answered (exercised) often IMHO:

    Co-incidentally, I was one the phone with a para-legal at the NRA yesterday and we were speaking about this very subject as I called wanting to know why the NRA-ILA mentions NOTHING about open-carry in their handouts about state laws.

    (The para-legal did not know why the NRA did not seem to speak much about open carry, although they are in court, somewhere in Michigan, helping defend someone on a couple of charges related to his open-carrying.)

    Anyways at one point I offered that perhaps why "we" are losing the hearts and minds of the general public about the RKBA was, in part, that no-one saw us exercising the right. The para-legal thought that was a good point. (After all it is the motto of this forum's parent web site !)

    Yes, it has also been mentioned in this thread already several times. But even our "bretheren", in this (gun/freedom) culture we share, need to ask and have the quesiton answered. And often. <- That is a part of why I open carry.

    The OTHER reason is that it is damn uncomfortable to carry "criminal style" (concealed) in the summer here in NM. Thanks to the forebearers here in NM for making legal (open) carry possible ala our state's constitution.

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    Good replies guys!!! And thanks for calling me to the carpet as to finding examples in threads of where I said I thought some might have "power trips" and others disrespecting LEO.I do not have time to go back right now and look for these threads... busy boy at work. But... I think when I said that I got the "impression that" maybe I was reading it into the post and that it really isn't there. I have to be honest though, when I first heard that it was actually legal in this state... I thought that there probably wasn't a "need" to do so and if one was OCing in the Seattle area it could be some sort of "power trip".

    I have one other question though... If you have a CCP and you are carring a firearm in an OWB (not IWB)holster and the shirt you are wearing isn't completely covering the weapon is that considered OC? And legal? Or is this an All or nothing thing?



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    It depends where you are.

    Not a problem in most places here. Other states it simply cannot be done. In many states it is a variable.

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    I decided to think about this question for a while before responding....

    Why do I carry (open or concealed)? The main reason I carry is for defense of myself and my family. Why do I choose open carry over concealed, most of the time? Quite frankly, because it is more comfortable, especially during the warmer months.

    Other reasons would be "because I can", political activism, educational purposes. I've had multiple occassions, where carrying was more politically motivated (such as the Bloomburg Giveaway)

    As for educational purposes? I carry all the time, even in my home, so...it's only educational when I am OC'ing in public. It's educational, even if citizen's don't ask questions...why? Because, even if one of those people go to reasearch the legality of doing so, then I've educated that person, regardless of whether I know it or not.

    You ask if it's because of the "Power trip", "looking for trouble", or "looking for LEO encounter"...

    a) Power trip: Absolutely not. Though, I will admit that OC'ing does contribute to one's self confidence.

    b) Looking for trouble: No. I OC because I don't want trouble.

    c) Looking for LEO encounter: Given the stories I've seen WRT negative LEO encounters, I'd rather not have one. However, I hope that I am well prepared for one should it happen.

    You also asked if OC'ing makes one a bigger target to a badguy, should one be encountered. I say no because, I believe...

    a) Street criminals don't want to die and will chose another target if they see someone OC'ing.

    b) Most street criminals are not that aware of their surroundings.

    c) They intend to accomplish a goal quickly, in as little time as possible.

    d) Most street criminals are not that wise.

    e) If one is situational aware of what is going on around them, this will not become and issue at all.

    Like others, I would ask that you cite reliable statistics that support this theory. Everytime I have ever seen this theory spoken, I have never seen cites that show reliable information supprting it.

    Just my .45

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