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Thread: At gunpoint and in cuffs in downtown Norfolk

  1. #1
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    I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story.

    This event occured 6/29/07 approx 4:55pm.

    I was going to pick up a friend who works at a bank call center in downtown Norfolk. I decided to park my car at a meter and wait across the street since my car didn't have any AC and it was cooler outside. Of course you know I was OCing. Approximately 5pm, a security guard walked past me. I felt that he was getting a closer look. One minute later, ANOTHER guard walked past me to get a closer look. Now both of these guards didn't look me in the eyes, so I knew deep down, it was going to hit the fan.

    I checked to see what one of the guards was doing, and I noticed one of them was on a cell phone looking directly at me so I kinda knew what the call was about. So I thought to myself, "I wonder how long it would take them to get here through all of this traffic?". Then I thought, "who cares?". I then heard sirens.Theyseemed quite far. As time went by slowly in my mind, Icould hear them getting closer and closer. Next thing I know I see a squad car turn down a street and I thought, "oh there they are". Next thing happened was quite a surprise.

    Ready?

    A officer came around the corner with his glock 19 drawn pointing at my chest.

    LEO1 - TURN AROUND AND PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!!

    Me - Um, am I under arrest?

    LEO1 - PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!!

    I did what I was told, seeing that I couldn't convince him otherwise. He approached slowly and I wasn't sure who put the cuffs on. Then came the questioning.

    LEO1 - What are you doing?

    LEO2 - Why are you carrying a gun?

    Me - I'm...

    LEO1 - Why is it loaded and cocked?

    LEO2 - Do you have a permit to carry that?

    Me - It's a 1911, it supposed to be carried in cocked and locked and I'm open carrying it, I don't need a permit.

    LEO2 - Do you realize you are standing near a bank with a gun? What are you doing?

    Me - Now I know you are just doing your job, but I'm not answering your questions without a lawyer present. (at this point I was pissed).

    LEO2 - Fine. (he then reaches into my pocket to get my wallet and get my ID)

    Me - I didn't consent to you searching me.

    LEO2 - I'm getting your ID.

    Me - Again, I didn't consent to a search.

    (meanwhile the other officer is glaring at my 1911)

    Me - I don't consent to the seizure of my firearm.

    LEO2 - You know carrying around a gun like this, especially in front of the bank is going to get attention and you got it. And what's with this hat, "Black man with a gun"? You are really looking for attention.

    Me - I like to exercise my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. So I'm being detained?

    LEO2 - Yup.

    Me - And why am I in cuffs again? I didn't do anything illegal.

    LEO2 - For our safety.

    Me - And mine.

    LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you.

    Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly.

    While LEO2 when to "check my papers", I tried to make small talk with LEO1. Asking him how was his day going, what caliber glock do you guys carry, general stuff. And I could tell he wasn't happy. I felt that he KNEW I wasn't doing anything wrong, especially since he was giving me 1 word answers. I then overheard over his radio that the call was for a man carrying in plain sight. So I wanted to ask the ultimate question that I wanted to know the answer to.

    Me - So, uh, after you guys let me go, what are you going to do?

    LEO1 - :X

    My friend came out the building and instructed friend to wait by the car. LEO2 came back and took the cuffs off.

    Me - So I'm free to go?

    LEO1 & 2 - :X

    Me - Thank you officers, have a great day!

    Before LEO2 could even gather enough breathe to say something (trying to get in the last word)...

    Me - Thank you, have a great day!

    LEO2 started to walk me with me trying to get the last word.

    LEO2 - You know that there are certain places where you cannot carry that?

    Me - Already know that, have a great day!!

    LEO2 - :X

    Now, I'm going down to the Norfolk Police Admin office to file a complaint and try to get a FOIA. Well see what happens then.

    Now...the bad news...

    After I got back to the car, I couldn't find my friend. My friend was waiting a block away and down another street. My friend said somethings that made me feel that my friend didn't support me. The things my friend said made me feel that it would have been better to be shot dead than live with the words and actions my friend did. I took my friend home and got into a heated debate. I left with the knowledge that my friend doesn't have my back 100% even thought said friend claimed they did. It's hard knowing that the people who say they support you 100% in anything you do only show 60% action. Not only that, my Dad doesn't support me.

    I haven't told him what happened yesterday, but he believes that guns should only be kept in the house. But he's all for going to the range and gun rights. It doesn't make logical sense to me. I don't care what other people think, but it saddens me to hear it from friends and family.

    Alas, I won't let the hurt ruin my ways of spreading the word of OC. I will ALWAYS carry openly (with a few exceptions). Unlike those who frown on OC, I'm doing something to educate and desensitize the public.

    I welcome all positive and negative feedback.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
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    The "BMWAG" hat is funny, although it didn't help your cause... But you probably would have been read the riot act anyways.

    I just finished my "internal affairs" investigation with Henrico, and although it was ruled the officer did nothing "wrong"(I beg to differ) I at least know my opinion has been heard.

    You'll probably be able to waste "internal affairs" time, but please press the issue. Just the opportunity to waste their time means we win.

    Cut your friends some slack, if they don't agree with you.. fine.. Differing opinions make for great conversations.

    One thing I don't get... Why are some cops so stupid about a holstered gun? After all, how often to criminals OC when commiting their crimes? NEVER -- DING DING DING -- What prize did you win?

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    Dude,

    This well and truly sucks. I've had cops misbehave but never like that ... you did awesome. If you are ever passing thru Roanoke, IM me and I'll buy.

    That said, the bit with the friend is worse - gut punch. My wife gave me hell for exercising my rights once. She was not so much unsupportive of me as terrified of losing me.

    Hope this helps,

    C.

  4. #4
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    Man you have the damnedest luck :shock:. Sorry to hear you were detained, but glad to hear it didn't go any further.

  5. #5
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    Boy the fun never ends around here.

    I bet your hat pissed him off because what is says is exactly what he was thinking when he rolled up on you, and he doesn't like being called out by a hat.

  6. #6
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    One day, the penny may drop in the minds of these asinine cops!

    BAD GUYS DO NOT OPEN CARRY!

    Insist on an abject apology from all concerned, or sue their asses off!

    Do us all a favour, Sir,if you will, and hold the feet of theseidiots to the fire!

    Your choice of headgear is your own business, and the police are not paid to opine. They need to be reminded from time to time that they are our servants,and that they police with the consent of the people.

    Yet more "officer safety" ********!

    How safe do these pantywaists need to be?

    I am usually very supportive of LEOs,as long as they behave themselves in a professional and courteous manner, which is not the case here, seemingly.

    Maybe talk to the VCDL guys? They will have advice aplenty, I am sure.

    Let us know what happens.

    TrueBrit.

  7. #7
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    TrueBrit wrote:
    BAD GUYS DO NOT OPEN CARRY!
    But someday, one of them might. Especially if OC becomes as commonplace as we'd like to see. We have to be prepared to deal with the fallout from that, just as we need to prepare for the day a permit-holder commits a crime.

    That's why I believe in judging based on actions. Rather than "Does he have a gun?" ask "What is he doing with his gun?".



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    Dan,

    I don't know what to say. This royally pisses me off. When you go to the station to file the complaint, I would like to go with you if you'd like the moral support. And a white friend, lol . I support you 100%



    Brian

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    I just wish I could be a wallflower when you come-a-calling for the FOIA stuff. Good job sir, my hat's off to you.

  10. #10
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    I have OCed several times in a neighborhood Sun trust bank without incident except thempestering me to open an account there.

    I just walk in with a $20 in my carry hand and stand in line to get a couple rolls of quarters, then I leave, never to any awaiting police welcome

  11. #11
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    Danbus,

    Any chance this was captured on CCTV from any business? Go and complain for sure. And have you joined VCDL yet? Talk to their lawyers if you can.

    Handcuffed for no crime is most definitely a 4th amendment issue. And make a FBI complaint this time. They took you wallet and searched your ID electronically without consent!

    OCers MUST start carrying a digital audio recorder if legal in your state. It will make for a slam dunk complaint or law suit. Then when the officer lies during an investigation you've gott'em by the balls.

    These harassments will stop once someone looses their job and a city is sued for $$$$$$$, but you need proof! No proof means the OCer looses every time.

    OCers, GO BUY AUDIO RECORDERS! YOUR FREEDOM MAY SOME DAY RELY ON IT. IT SHOULD BE AS STANDARD AS A SPARE MAG!




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    Danbus,

    Seems like you are always getting the short end of the stick -- sorry about your misfortune.

    I agree with the others, you need to fight this, I believe you have a case, exceptionally so if it is on CCTV.

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    Holy crap, Dan. Sorry you got treated that way. I hate to say it, but it's becoming more and more evident to me that LEOs really do profile based on color. I had an errand at my bank yesterday and I walked in with my 1911 cocked and locked. I had three transactions, so I was there for several minutes, and other than initial glances at my holstered handgun nobody paid me any undue attention. I'm lily white. I guess color still makes a difference in the way people treat us. (sigh)

    I realize that you're losing more sleep over the way your friend treated you than the way you were treated by the police, so I just wanted to say that people's prejudices against open carry run deep too, and it will take time to turn the tide. I hope you can maintain your friendship with this person in spite of your differences.


    Kyle

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    TrueBrit wrote:
    BAD GUYS DO NOT OPEN CARRY!
    But someday, one of them might. Especially if OC becomes as commonplace as we'd like to see. We have to be prepared to deal with the fallout from that, just as we need to prepare for the day a permit-holder commits a crime.

    That's why I believe in judging based on actions. Rather than "Does he have a gun?" ask "What is he doing with his gun?".

    It is indeed a possibility that a BG may OC one day,unlikely as it seems to me at present.But the point that you make about judging based on actions is a valid one that the cops and soccer mommies ought to take on board.

    TrueBrit.



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    Good luck, hit em where it hurts!



    On a sidenote I think it's hilarious that you wear that hat in your day to day activities, I thought you only wore it for OC dinners.

  16. #16
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    cato wrote:

    OCers, GO BUY AUDIO RECORDERS! YOUR FREEDOM MAY SOME DAY RELY ON IT. IT SHOULD BE AS STANDARD AS A SPARE MAG!


    Can you use such a device without consent?

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    I wonder if I can get a shirt that says, "I support black men with guns"...

    That would be a conversation-starter!

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Depends on the state. Though Washington is a "all party notify" state, this doesn't not apply to police encounters.

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    Kevin108 wrote:
    cato wrote:

    OCers, GO BUY AUDIO RECORDERS! YOUR FREEDOM MAY SOME DAY RELY ON IT. IT SHOULD BE AS STANDARD AS A SPARE MAG!


    Can you use such a device without consent?
    In some states yea and others no. In NM if ONE person/party in a conversation knows about the recording, it is a legal recording.

  20. #20
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    I wonder if I can get a shirt that says, "I support black men with guns"...

    That would be a conversation-starter!
    LMAO! You might start more than a conversation! Maybe something you can't finish!

    Perhaps a couple letters to the Chief of Police stating how we are quite unhappy with wayOpen Carriers are being brutalized by the Police Forceand that perhaps they will be seeing a whole lot more of us. And yes, this is a test. And yes, they are being graded.

    Threatening with the lawful exercise of one's rights is only a threat to those who would suppress those rights and not actually a threat at all.

    danbus, one day I'm gonna get my ass down there,shake your hand and buy you lunch. I give you all the credit for keeping your cool and being on the front lines!



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    I think we owe him more than lunch. Maybe a new hat...(just kidding)

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    I can't believe how you manage to keep your cool after all the crap you've gotten for OCing, Danbus. It's a blight on America that you get singled out for your race while carrying... I suppose people who are comfortable with robbing someone of one constitutional right is comfortable with robbing someone of all of them. My hat's off to you, sir!

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Strangely I can imagine Danbus is getting used to the harrassment. Not to say he enjoys it, but he is getting experienced at handling these things. I've noticed in myself that I'm less jittery about LEO encounters after Tonys and Burke Lake. He is a salty hand at this point, we should be asking him what to do in these encounters.



  24. #24
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  25. #25
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    Danbus,

    While we have never met in person, I do look forward to that day. Clearly, you are engaged in a civil rights battle, that those of us who are "unmistakably white" are not. But in this cause you are not alone. While color may matter to the police, I have not met anyone from this forum that holds that view. We here are all brothers in arms. You have more support than you know.

    As for this situation, because they actually handcuffed you, you are in the unique position of have been the subject of a false arrest. The act was willful as both officers KNEW in advance that OC was legal. While they might reasonably have conducted a "Terry" stop (you were sitting outside a bank after all), they did not have the right to actually arrest and handcuff you for that purpose. A civil suit against the police department and the two Officers in this case would be almost a slam dunk.

    You probably could find a lawyer that would take the case on contingency, so the cost to you would only be the time to pursue the matter. Check with the bank and see if their ATM camera caught the action and also see if the police had cameras and voice recorders in their cars. Start by filing the complaint with the police WITH a FOIA for any recordings (video or audio) to stop them from deleting any that exist. Also contact your local FBI office and file a complaint with them for a color of office violation, and have them seize any recordings. That will really get them to think about what they are doing.

    I sincerely hope you drive these guys into the ground like tent pegs. But remember, you are not alone. Many of us are prepared to stand ground with you anytime you need us. Just tell us when and where to show up.

    Regards

    EDIT: Bulldog is correct. In Virginia only one party is required to consent to a recording, and obviously that person can be the person doing the recording if he/she is also being recorded.
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