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Thread: Going to the Movies or Malls in Northern VA

  1. #1
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    I am new to the site and this is my first post. I just got my CHP about 1 month ago. I haven't gotten my first firearm yet because the gun fund is not complete but will be soon. I am so glad that there are sites like this so a newbie like me can learn and then in the future will be able to help other newbies.

    I have a question about Malls and going to the Movie Theatre...

    The Malls I am talking about would be Potomac Mills, Springfield, Manassas Mall etc. Movie Theatres would be like AMC, Centerville Multiplex, etc.

    I have read somewhere on the forums that at these locations you cannot Carry Firearms so does that mean we can't carry Concealed? If you decide to carry CC and are caught what can happen? Obviously I am new and just want to make sure I understand what you can and cannot do so I do not break the law.

    If you cannot carry your firearm at these locations can you leave the firearm in your car while at the mall or movies?



    Thanks!



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    Welcome to the board!!

    If you CC.. nobody will ever know but you unless you let it show.

    Technically... you could be considered as trespassing for violating the posted firearm ban at the mall. It is highly unlikely that it will even happen. Security could show up if a shopper was to report you. Then security would show you to the door.

    You can lock your gun up in your car. I would highly encourage you to ALWAYS lock it in a secure container or with a cable lock affixedto the vehicle. If someone does break in.. you do not want them to easily walk off with it.

    There are some gun locker sites listed in this board.I am confident someone will post them for you.

    I suggest key or mechanical push button. I do not care for battery operated locks. It would suck to have the battery fail when you really need access to your gun.

    Here are a few that would interest me. Not that they are the best price.. shop around the Internet before you buy.

    http://citywidesecurity.stores.yahoo...pistolbox.html

    http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=282585

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    LEO, thanks for those links! That second locking gun box was CHEAP, and I've been looking for something compact and cheap to cover me under the Federal Peacable Journey Act while traveling. Good find.

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    It will not stop someone determined who has lots of time... but it will prevent the thief from just taking it.

    That is a good price too...


    I really like the Simplex locks myself as is on the first one. I have awall safe at home like that. Easy to get into at night in complete darkness.

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    I have never agreed that failure to follow a rule of conduct in a mall or theater, posted well, or not, is criminal tresspassing or a violation of 18.2-308(O).

    But nayway, malls tend to have a "tradgedy of the commons" aspect to them - rent-a-cops patrolling, reporting to their fimr, fired by mall management, which works for mall owners, and not the stores renting space inside.

    Very poor incentive structure - best bet at most malls seems to be don;t ask don;t tell till you get to the door of the alcohol serving restaurant inside (in VA).

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    Regular Member Bulldog1967's Avatar
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    Concelaed means concealed.

    I refuse to be unarmed in a theatre OR a mall.

    Especially some of the ones around me.

    YMMV.

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    The sign does not have to say actually anything about "trespassing"since it isimplied when you violatethe the prohibited item.

    The sign is NOT A REQUEST and is a requirement for entry. Your failure to complymeans your not welcome to be there. If your not welcome... your trespassing.

    Important Note... Notice that nowhere in the code section does it mention the requirement of the word "TRESPASSING" to be displayed on a sign. It is only mentionedin thesubject line.


    http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/trespassing.html

    3. (law) enter somebody else's land unlawfully: to go onto somebody else's land or enter somebody else's property without permission
    4. (law) cause injury: to cause injury to the person, property, or rights of another



    § 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.

    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so,

    either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof

    at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    It will not stop someone determined who has lots of time... but it will prevent the thief from just taking it.

    That is a good price too...


    I really like the Simplex locks myself as is on the first one. I have awall safe at home like that. Easy to get into at night in complete darkness.
    I'm looking into a way to secure my handgun in my vehicle for when I go into work (fed building). I have this holster.... http://www.desantisholster.com/01l.html

    Would handcuffing it to the bottom of my seat while holstered be feasible? How hard is it to break a standard pair of cuffs? Do you recommend a special pair of cuffs? I know nothing about cuffs and need advice from a LEO.

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    I'm looking into a way to secure my handgun in my vehicle for when I go into work (fed building). I have this holster.... http://www.desantisholster.com/01l.html

    Would handcuffing it to the bottom of my seat while holstered be feasible? How hard is it to break a standard pair of cuffs? Do you recommend a special pair of cuffs? I know nothing about cuffs and need advice from a LEO.
    Cuffs have a universal key so anyone with a key would be able to get it.

    I have a padlock with a long flexible cable. Iremove my mag, lock back the slide and run thecable through the mag opening and lock it to a part of my car. This secures both the upper and lower receiver. It is unloaded and cannot possibly be fired.


    This is the cheap and easily portable way to go.

    http://www.masterlock.com/cgi-bin/pr...p;template=app



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    Now, the "No guns" sign = trespassing thing brings up an interesting point...

    What if either

    A> There is no sign on the entrance you used? Someone cited a mall with a No weapons sign on the main mall entrances, but no signs on the end cap stores (JC Pennies, in particular).

    or

    B> What if you HONESTLY did not see the sign? Say there was a crowd of people blocking the sign? Think large movie premier night.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Thanks for everyone's reply. Leo229 I like the cheap safe that you posted. I will be getting that one for sure.

    I hope everyone has a safe and fun 4th of July!



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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I have a padlock with a long flexible cable. Iremove my mag, lock back the slide and run thecable through the mag opening and lock it to a part of my car. This secures both the upper and lower receiver. It is unloaded and cannot possibly be fired.
    LEO229, have you read this article btw? Apparently that style lock (same as the ones that come with XD's and some police stations freebie) is easily broken with a pair of pliers (scroll down about half way):

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/13/t...t-any-caliber/






    -Unrequited

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    Be sure they don't do random searches at the federal property that you work on. The signs here say something about being not permitted on property - to include parking garages.....

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    unrequited wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I have a padlock with a long flexible cable. Iremove my mag, lock back the slide and run thecable through the mag opening and lock it to a part of my car. This secures both the upper and lower receiver. It is unloaded and cannot possibly be fired.
    LEO229, have you read this article btw? Apparently that style lock (same as the ones that come with XD's and some police stations freebie) is easily broken with a pair of pliers (scroll down about half way):

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/13/t...t-any-caliber/





    Yep! An unarmored cable can be cut. The armored cables (like this one) are merely bent and the armor itself cuts the cable. So much for product quality testing...



  15. #15
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    I often carry concealed in malls and theaters.

    I've never seen a sign suggesting that I should not, but then, I don't look for such signs.

    YMMV



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    AbNo wrote:
    Now, the "No guns" sign = trespassing thing brings up an interesting point...

    What if either

    A> There is no sign on the entrance you used? Someone cited a mall with a No weapons sign on the main mall entrances, but no signs on the end cap stores (JC Pennies, in particular).

    or

    B> What if you HONESTLY did not see the sign? Say there was a crowd of people blocking the sign? Think large movie premier night.
    Good point... If you told me you did not see it and after checking.... the sign did not exist... I would let you go.Themallneeds to cover all entrances.

    Benefit of the doubt goes to you. If you claim you did not see it??? Case by case basis...

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    unrequited wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I have a padlock with a long flexible cable. Iremove my mag, lock back the slide and run thecable through the mag opening and lock it to a part of my car. This secures both the upper and lower receiver. It is unloaded and cannot possibly be fired.
    LEO229, have you read this article btw? Apparently that style lock (same as the ones that come with XD's and some police stations freebie) is easily broken with a pair of pliers (scroll down about half way):

    http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/13/t...t-any-caliber/
    If the really want it.. They are going to get it. I know it is not the best lock... but it is better than leaving it left unsecured. I am still looking for something real secure.

    What I want is a Strong box made if thick steel that is mounted down. I just have the find a space in my vehicle to put such an item.

    But.. since I rarely store my gun in the car.. the cable lock works for me. Dept regs say I cannot leave it unsecured and this lock covers me.

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    Am I missing something? I thought that "no guns" signs in VA have no force of law; that the onwer/manager/staff must ask you to leave, and you must refuse, before you can be charged with trespassing?

    Is this true or not?

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Am I missing something? I thought that "no guns" signs in VA have no force of law; that the onwer/manager/staff must ask you to leave, and you must refuse, before you can be charged with trespassing?

    Is this true or not?
    My understanding also, if they ask you to leave then you leave. You don't leave they can call the cops and have you arrested. I carry concealed in those places and I don't look for signs either.

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    kaiheitai brings up two interesting points...

    Yes, I know this goes back on what I asked earlier....

    One, if you're going to carry in a No Guns place, CC.

    Typically? Unless they are a flacid {donkey}, they are just going to say "Hey, you're not supposed to have that here, take it outside."

    Think of it as no harm no foul. (Next time, conceal better... :P )

    Now, if you OC in a place blatantly emblazoned with "ZOMG! No guns!", you're asking for trouble.

    But then again, if they have signs like that up, you probably don't want to shop there, anyway.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Am I missing something? I thought that "no guns" signs in VA have no force of law; that the onwer/manager/staff must ask you to leave, and you must refuse, before you can be charged with trespassing?

    Is this true or not?
    It is not cut and dry... But I provided the code sections that would be used.

    IMO... you were "given notice" not to enter with guns. The same as those signs that say "No Skateboarding" in shopping centers. What is the purpose of the sign? It is not a warning that they are going to give you a warning. :P

    The sign means.. if your doing this here.. we do not want you here. I would issue you a summons for trespassing and let the Judge decide. The way the code is worded.. I feel you would loose.


    Remember one of the definitions for trespassing is"cause injury: to cause injury to the person, property, or rights of another"

    The Mall has the right to ban items and your violating that right.

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    I was hoping to read (again) the VA gun laws pertaining to #1. storing a firearm in a vehicle and #2. use of deadly force.

    Based on both what packing.org says (http://www.packing.org/state/virginia/) and my inability to find anything in the Code of VA (http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC), I take it that "common sense prevails" in both cases. That is:

    #1. storing your gun in your car when you can't bring it with you for whatever reason (i.e. you are going to the post office) should be done in a manner like what LEO 229 and others have suggested

    #2. justified use of deadly force (should it go to court) is governed by case law, so you're at the mercy of the judge

    If anyone disagrees, please chime in.

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    But LEO, isn't it only criminal tresspass if informed in writing or ordered by a LEO?

    I don't think that a mall's "right" to ban items should take priority over your right to self defense and the preservation of one's own life. IMHOa gun isn't just another "item" to be banned, it's a tool that defends life itself. Life is supposed to be sacred.

    We need to out it in terms the stores can understand. The 367th Rule of Acquisition states: Without life, there can be no shopping. Without shopping, there can be no profits. Therefore preserving life equals increased profits!

    America has turned into the Ferengi Empire......

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    Well, LEO229 I think is talking about his opinion, not the law. An opinion I happen to share, I think. If a proprietor doesn't want me to carry on his property, I will respect that. It's his property, his right. Even if VA law is on my side until he asks me.

    I have problems with businesses owned by corporations, however. Yes, the shareholders have property rights, but they are also shielded by the state from certain liability. I believe that corporate businesses open to the public should have to act more...well...public. Does that make sense? It's not like the shareholders of AMC are standing at the popcorn counter telling me to leave. In fact, they probably have no idea what the corporation's gun policy is or what the thinking behind it was. They pay other people to run the business, and those people pay teenagers to actually work at the theatre.

    I'm not good at arguing this point, because the concept limited liability corporations and the laws pertaining to them are not something I am well-versed in.

    So I may be off-base here. Nevertheless, I am going to see a movie in ten minutes...

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    This is actually a bit of a clash between firearms laws and trespassing laws, which were written separately from each other and for different purposes.

    EVERYONE get ONE visit, even on posted property. The sign is merely a notice that you may be asked to leave, and if so you MUST comply. LEOs do not enforce the sign absent the support of the owner of the property.

    In the case of a mall, you can enter with the firearm, and if confronted then the law of trespass comes into play. That is why you must be asked to leave and refuse before you are subject to arrest.

    For any subsequent visit, you will have already been notified, and if they kept records or recognize you, you can be arrested on the spot. If they have filed a letter with the local LE department, any LEO can arrest you on sight if they find you on the property.

    If you are banned from the property, a letter MUST be filed and you MUST also be notified (usually certified mail or "process service")

    Regards
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