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Thread: Encounter at IKEA

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Go figure that two weeks after the lunch that occured where no one called the police, I get talked to by Officer Paget of the Renton PD. She tried to tell me that I'm required to have my CPL to carry openly, I asked her to please read the Federal Way training advisory that advised that this is only for concealed carry and loaded carry in one's car. She refused to read it, and then told me about the IKEA manager who was occured. This is after I spent $209 at the warehouse, and $10 at the bistro at the end.

    Now, keep in mind, The IKEA manager did NOT trespass me. It's just that "several shoppers have come to them concerned". I was "allowed" to finish my meal there.

    I will be addressing the issue with the local IKEA management tommorow, advising them of the disparate treatment of me versus the group two weeks ago, and advising them that I can just as easily return the $209 worth of stuff within the 45 day return policy.

    Now, Paget's partner, Officer M. Coleman was a little more reasonable. He know that there was no CPL required, I advised him to let his partner know that, and he stated that he would do so and have her read the statute.

    All in all, despite the poor treatment of IKEA, and the slip by Paget, it wasn't a horrid encounter.

  2. #2
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    That's really odd. Maybe it was because you were a "lone gunman" and looked out of place, as opposed to a big group of people wearing guns. We probably looked like a bunch of undercover LEO's.

    Hopefully the manager of the IKEA has something positive to say, perhaps even an apology, though that's probably wishful thinking.
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    Did the IKEA manager inform you of this or confirm the officers claim?

    I ask because others have had similar things said to them only to find out after the fact (after sending letter, asking manager) that the manger said no such thing and the LEO had made up the whole thing... :what:

    Definately call/write the manger.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Did the IKEA manager inform you of this or confirm the officers claim?

    I ask because others have had similar things said to them only to find out after the fact (after sending letter, asking manager) that the manger said no such thing and the LEO had made up the whole thing... :what:

    Definately call/write the manger.
    The manager was there and stated so.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    There seems to be a lot of confusion on the part of the police about OC. When Officer Olsen started reading me the riot act on the waterfront, he was reciting the typical speech they give to someone who inadvertently exposes their concealed carry handgun. He stumbled when I pointed out the obvious, that I was open carrying.



    I asked Officer Griswold during our telephone conversation about ‘man with a gun’ calls; does the 911 operator ask the caller what the person with the gun is doing that is of concern. He didn’t know. That’s the same thing here; some concerned individual comes to the manager and comments about your sidearm. A lot of grief could be avoided if they would just ask a couple follow-up questions. “What was the man with the gun doing? “Shopping? Well, that’s perfectly legal and within store policy.”



    Also: Sending you a PM Lonnie.

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    IKEA's are usually posted no-gun carry, yes?

    At least they used to be.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    IKEA's are usually posted no-gun carry, yes?

    At least they used to be.
    This one didn't seem to be. We had an Open-Carry lunch a couple weeks ago there and no one noticed any signage to say we couldn't carry there. I can say that I took the time to look on my way in and didn't notice any.

    It could also be individual store policies, as opposed to corporate policy. You may want to ask corporate IKEA about their policy regarding legal carry of firearms, both concealed and open, in their stores.
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    IKEA in Woodbrige, VA is clearly posted no firearms. Next time I go I'll try to take a pic, but it looked similar to the rest of the sinage of the store, so I'd assume it was corporate and not specific to the location.
    -Unrequited

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    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I also know that the Phoenix, AZ store is posted.

    It might be noteworthy that in both AZ and VA, force of law is behind posted private property. So perhaps because signage has no weight here in Washington, they don't bother posting worthless signs. Just a thought.
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

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    eBratt wrote:
    It might be noteworthy that in . . . VA, force of law is behind posted private property.
    What are you talking about? VA has no signage statute at all.

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    There is no "force of law" whatsoever behind a posted sign in Virginia. Even where specifically posted, you STILL can open carry. Only if you are asked to leave - and then refuse todo so- could you be cited, and even then it wouldonly be for trespassing, likeit would be for anyone who refused to leave after being asked to do so on private property.Signage has nothing to do with Virginia gun laws.

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    Regular Member eBratt's Avatar
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    I don't know what either of you are talking about.

    Straight from VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/static/ccw.html)


    Places Off-Limits While Carrying
    Air Carrier Airport Terminals (Ticketed Passengers Baggage Exemption)

    ANY Courthouse
    ANY Federal Property (Federal Offices/National Parks/Post Offices)
    Detention Facilities (Adult & Juvenile)
    Military Facilities
    Place of Worship During a Service "Without Good and Sufficent Reason"
    Places With On-Premises Alcohol - Owners/Employees/Open Carry Exempted

    *Private Property / Business When Prohibited by Owner or Posted*

    Public/Private/Parochial School Buses
    Public/Private/Parochial School Functions
    Public/Private/Parochial School Property (Concealed Carry by Permit Holders INSIDE Vehicles is Exempted)

    State Parks (CCW Ok. Open Carry Not Allowed)
    Virginia Commonwealth University

    (Emphasis mine)
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good" - George Washington
    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

    As always, insert standard IANAL disclaimer here.

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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    She refused to read it, and then told me about the IKEA manager who was occured.
    1. What does the above statement mean?
    2. Is IKEA the home furnishings store?
    3. Can you provide some more background on the sequence of events that lead up to this incident?

    There was an IKEA in Renton I was planning to visit yesterday in Renton that has some book cases I want to purchase. Is this the same place?

    Thanks,
    Brent

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    44Brent wrote:
    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    She refused to read it, and then told me about the IKEA manager who was occured.
    1. What does the above statement mean?
    2. Is IKEA the home furnishings store?
    3. Can you provide some more background on the sequence of events that lead up to this incident?
    There was an IKEA in Renton I was planning to visit yesterday in Renton that has some book cases I want to purchase. Is this the same place?

    Thanks,
    Brent
    I'll do my best to answer and Lonnie can correct me if I'm wrong or affirm my answers:

    1. I believe it was meant to say: "...IKEA manager who was concerned."
    2. Yes, it is a very large home furnishings store in Renton/almost Tukwila; just southeast of Southcenter Mall.
    3. That's gunna have to be all Lonnie, as he was the only one of the OCDO'ers present.
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    eBratt wrote:
    I don't know what either of you are talking about.

    Straight from VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/static/ccw.html)


    Places Off-Limits While Carrying
    Air Carrier Airport Terminals (Ticketed Passengers Baggage Exemption)

    ANY Courthouse
    ANY Federal Property (Federal Offices/National Parks/Post Offices)
    Detention Facilities (Adult & Juvenile)
    Military Facilities
    Place of Worship During a Service "Without Good and Sufficent Reason"
    Places With On-Premises Alcohol - Owners/Employees/Open Carry Exempted

    *Private Property / Business When Prohibited by Owner or Posted*

    Public/Private/Parochial School Buses
    Public/Private/Parochial School Functions
    Public/Private/Parochial School Property (Concealed Carry by Permit Holders INSIDE Vehicles is Exempted)

    State Parks (CCW Ok. Open Carry Not Allowed)
    Virginia Commonwealth University

    (Emphasis mine)
    What they're saying is that signage has no legal standing in VA other than the tresspass statute, and for that to be enforced they must"catch" you with a weapon andask you to leave. In some states, the law on concealed carry states "places off limits," then lists things like schools, courthouses, bars, "and places where posted no weapons." In that case, you are in violation of the law by simply carrying in those places. VA has no such statute, so it's kind of "don't ask-don't tell."

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    Sorry to contiue this thread Shanghai but . . . .

    It can be argued that the posting of the sign is the same as a verbal request to leave. Same as a general "No Tresspassing" sign conspicuously posted negates the need for a verbal warning before you could be arrested for tresspassing.

    The "No Guns" sign is saying "If you carry a gun here, you are tresspassing. Please leave now." Next legal step: arrest.

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    deanf wrote:
    Sorry to contiue this thread Shanghai but . . . .

    It can be argued that the posting of the sign is the same as a verbal request to leave. Same as a general "No Tresspassing" sign conspicuously posted negates the need for a verbal warning before you could be arrested for tresspassing.

    The "No Guns" sign is saying "If you carry a gun here, you are tresspassing. Please leave now." Next legal step: arrest.
    A citation in law, please, or perhaps a court case affirming this concept, and both, please, in reference to VA, as that is the focus of this discussion.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    ScottNH wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    Sorry to contiue this thread Shanghai but . . . .

    It can be argued that the posting of the sign is the same as a verbal request to leave. Same as a general "No Tresspassing" sign conspicuously posted negates the need for a verbal warning before you could be arrested for tresspassing.

    The "No Guns" sign is saying "If you carry a gun here, you are tresspassing. Please leave now." Next legal step: arrest.
    A citation in law, please, or perhaps a court case affirming this concept, and both, please, in reference to VA, as that is the focus of this discussion.
    Actually, no, this is the WASHINGTON forum and the IKEA in question from the original post is located in Renton, Washington.
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    You are, of course, exactly correct.Thisis the WA forum, but the thread had drifted Eastward, and I blindly went with it, and we ended up discussing VA law. Sorry.

    A WA law cite backing up this assertion would be nice, though.

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    It's not an assertion, it's just a concept presented for discussion.

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    deanf wrote:
    It's not an assertion, it's just a concept presented for discussion.
    The "No Guns" sign is saying "If you carry a gun here, you are tresspassing [sic]. Please leave now." Next legal step: arrest.
    I'm a little dense, I know, but that sounds suspiciously like a declarative statement, not speculation. Probably just me.

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    ScottNH wrote:
    A WA law cite backing up this assertion would be nice, though.
    A law backing up what assertion?

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    ScottNH wrote:
    You are, of course, exactly correct.Thisis the WA forum, but the thread had drifted Eastward, and I blindly went with it, and we ended up discussing VA law. Sorry.

    A WA law cite backing up this assertion would be nice, though.
    In Washingtn there is no law that adresses this directly. If a Property Owner posts his business/property with a NO Firearms! sign, and someone is found to be carrying in defiance of this, there is no law to charge that person for the carrying past that sign. The Property Owner has to ask the person carrying to leave, first, and if they refuse the party can be removed by Police and charged with trespass.

    Nothing kicks in until the person, when asked to leave, refuses and it is only trespass. This also applies to drunks, disorderly conduct, and people that refuse to wear shirt and shoes.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    amlevin wrote:
    ScottNH wrote:
    You are, of course, exactly correct.Thisis the WA forum, but the thread had drifted Eastward, and I blindly went with it, and we ended up discussing VA law. Sorry.

    A WA law cite backing up this assertion would be nice, though.
    In Washingtn there is no law that adresses this directly. If a Property Owner posts his business/property with a NO Firearms! sign, and someone is found to be carrying in defiance of this, there is no law to charge that person for the carrying past that sign. The Property Owner has to ask the person carrying to leave, first, and if they refuse the party can be removed by Police and charged with trespass.

    Nothing kicks in until the person, when asked to leave, refuses and it is only trespass. This also applies to drunks, disorderly conduct, and people that refuse to wear shirt and shoes.
    Thank you. This is the way I thought the law read.

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    gregma wrote:
    ScottNH wrote:
    A WA law cite backing up this assertion would be nice, though.
    A law backing up what assertion?
    It can be argued that the posting of the sign is the same as a verbal request to leave. Same as a general "No Tresspassing" sign conspicuously posted negates the need for a verbal warning before you could be arrested for tresspassing.

    The "No Guns" sign is saying "If you carry a gun here, you are tresspassing. Please leave now." Next legal step: arrest.
    This one.

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