LEO Encounter

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After work today, and with the recent Danbus, and Rev incidents fresh in my mind, I headed off to the range (Gun and Pawn on Mercury Blvd). While there I ran across one of Hampton's finest there ffor some range time.

I routinely open carry, but as I was at the range this probably didn't raise any of his alarms. There was a customer there purchasing a handgun and he asked me about my holster and the legality of carrying in that manner.

I informed him that open carry was perfectly legal in Virginia. The LEO and the owner immediately jumped in to say it is not advised. The LEO even went on to say (gist, not a word for word transcript)

LEO - "If I ever sawyou on the street open carryingI would stopyou for a chat."

TAC - "And I would have no problem chatting"

LEO - "And I would remove your firearm and run a check on you"

TAC - "That would be an illegal Terry stop"

Owner - "And a judge would support him stopping you"

LEO - "I would still run a check on you"

TAC - "Run what kind of check?"

LEO - "On your handgun and on your information"

TAC -"On what information"

LEO -"I would run your ID"

TAC - "In that case I would tell you I have no ID"

LEO - "If you're driving you have to carry ID"

TAC - "In the example you gave I was not driving"

LEO - "And if I ran a check on your plates or saw a gun, I would have you to exit the vehicle and I would disarm you"

TAC - "Again, I was addressing your first example of walking down the street"

LEO - "You have to carry ID"

TAC - "No I don't, all I have to do is identify myself, I have no requirement for ID, I suggest when you get back to the department you look it up"

LEO - "I would'nt open carry in the manner you are now if I were you."

TAC - I open carry all the time...Blockbuster, Home Depot, 7-11.

LEO - "It's illegal to carry in 7-11":what:

TAC - "No it isn't, I do it all the time"

LEO - "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" (funny how our ignorance can get us in trouble but not the po-po):banghead:

TAC - "It's only illegal if it is posted--No firearms"

By this time the officer no longer seemed inclined to talk with me and seemed in a hurry to be somewhere else.

Additionally, this whole time the owners of the range/gun shop/pawn shop seemed to be siding with the police officer at every point along the way.

I think a call to the Police Chief on Monday is in order.

And maybe I need to find a new range, any suggestions?

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I would like to thank reverned, danbus, bobcav, hawkflier, citizen and more. Without the benefit of the opencary forum and their firsthand experience/knowledge I would probably not have faired as well in this tet a tet.

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Sounds like the whole Tidewater region needs some education. I would have been tempted to tell the LEO, when he stated ignorance of the law is no excuse, that the same goes for him/her. Just because he is ignorant of the law doesn't mean that he has the authority to detain you without reasonable suspicion on articulable facts.

I think you handled yourself well. I hope that when I have my first LEO encounter that I have the presence of mind to remain calm and collective and remember all that I have researched and read here.

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Taclead,

Since this was essentially a consensual encounter, it may best be treated by a letter to the Chief of that LEO's jurisdiction.

However, that doesn't mean it was an innocent encounter. He'sa police officer; he was giving you "law"incorrectly. A genuine complaint would not be unfounded.

In my letter, I'd just take up each incorrect point and correct it. Then recommend training updates like Mike SuperModerator did in his e-mail to the Chief in Alexandria, VA.

And don't lose sight of the fact that you'rebeing generousabout a letter that assumes it wasonly ignorance. It could just as easily have been deliberate mis-information. Hisdeparture and failure to patiently explain the "truth" to you practically screams that he knew you had itright. So what was he really trying to do by giving you the false info?(rhetorical question).

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Taclead wrote:

The LEO even went on to say (gist, not a word for word transcript)

LEO - "If I ever sawyou on the street open carryingI would stopyou for a chat."
...

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Good exchange, Taclead. You had to keep him on topic.

You can always tell when someone has a weak case--they add new details or change the premises...

It's interesting how so many LEOs in VA still aren't up to speed on OC yet.

ChinChin came up with an informational/educational idea aimed at LEOs recently. It's looking better and better...

I hope he follows up on it. It could probably pay some dividends.

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This is the response of the majority of PO. They want to check your ID.

If it ever came to pass that you could carry a gun and NO ONE could EVER question then you would have criminals open carrying. It is never going to happen.

All people like Danbus are doing is risking arrest, serious injury, or death, not to mention having your friends and family think something's wrong with you mentally.

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taurusfan, I want a million dollars--it doesn't mean I'm gonna get it. Police can ask all they want but without justifiable reasons, they won't get it.

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Taclead wrote:

taurusfan, I want a million dollars--it doesn't mean I'm gonna get it. Police can ask all they want but without justifiable reasons, they won't get it.

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Yep. I'd rather draw the line here and be doing something to slow or prevent tyranny, than have to fight it out like the boys at Lexington and Concord.

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taurusfan wrote:

This is the response of the majority of PO. They want to check your ID.

If it ever came to pass that you could carry a gun and NO ONE could EVER question then you would have criminals open carrying. It is never going to happen.

All people like Danbus are doing is risking arrest, serious injury, or death, not to mention having your friends and family think something's wrong with you mentally.

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The troll is back. With more mouth poop. Good to know some of the guys around here got my back, as well as Danbus and others' backs when we exercise our rights, because you certainly don't.

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taurusfan wrote:

This is the response of the majority of PO. They want to check your ID.

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Well, that's a true statement. We only have to see our very own LEO 229's dogged interest in IDsfor corroboration.


taurusfan wrote:

If it ever came to pass that you could carry a gun and NO ONE could EVER question then you would have criminals open carrying. It is never going to happen.

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At first reading, I tended to agree. But then I thought: What about citizens being allowed to walk around (without a gun) without being questioned. That's the norm. And yet, walking among us are all kinds of criminals. They're right there walking along side. And it's totally acceptable--to the police, the government, society, etc.

I think it couldhappen. Maybe.


taurusfan wrote:

All people like Danbus are doing is risking arrest, serious injury, or death, not to mention having your friends and family think something's wrong with you mentally.

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Well, I don't think I agree with most of this. Seems like plenty of people OC without all of this stuff happening. You paint too dark a picture...though there is some grief and risk. Most of the time, by far in Virginia, it is pretty manageable.

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HI Taclead. That may be the same leo that told me that if I had a CHP that it was illeagal to open carry, saw him on tv later and he was part of a group of HPD officers that were working with homeland security.

I've lately heard bad things about that range ( rounds richocheting because they don't keep the back stop media clean). You should look at joining Layfayette Gun Club in York co. They have an indoor pistol range thats open 24 hours a day.

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taurusfan wrote:

If it ever came to pass that you could carry a gun and NO ONE could EVER question then you would have criminals open carrying. It is never going to happen.

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Back when OC was more common, laws barring concealed carry were passed (thus the need for a "permit" now).

Why was this? Because criminals CONCEALED their guns.

Yet again, taurusfan steps up and squarely places foot in mouth and revelas his lack of understanding of anything pertinent to the conversation. LOL

An idiot, yes. But he's a persistent idiot :lol:

Sometimes trolls are fun to play with.

All people like Danbus are doing is risking arrest, serious injury, or death, not to mention having your friends and family think something's wrong with you mentally.

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Sounds like projection to me. Poor fellow, has more issues than I thought!

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Taclead wrote:

After work today, and with the recent Danbus, and Rev incidents fresh in my mind, I headed off to the range (Gun and Pawn on Mercury Blvd). 

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There's about 4 Gun and Pawn shops on Mercury Blvd...

Which would it be, if you don't mind my asking?

I'd like to not buy, rent, or even browse theiy facility.

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Citizen wrote:

Taclead,

Since this was essentially a consensual encounter, it may best be treated by a letter to the Chief of that LEO's jurisdiction.

However, that doesn't mean it was an innocent encounter. He'sa police officer; he was giving you "law"incorrectly. A genuine complaint would not be unfounded.

In my letter, I'd just take up each incorrect point and correct it. Then recommend training updates like Mike SuperModerator did in his e-mail to the Chief in Alexandria, VA.

And don't lose sight of the fact that you'rebeing generousabout a letter that assumes it wasonly ignorance. It could just as easily have been deliberate mis-information. Hisdeparture and failure to patiently explain the "truth" to you practically screams that he knew you had itright. So what was he really trying to do by giving you the false info? (rhetorical question).

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Question. What would you think that if during the confrontation, you informed the LEO that you were going to write a letter to his superiors requesting they educate him in the laws of Virginia regarding the carrying of firearms by citizens. Do you think this is a viable approach or would it tend to make the LEO more confrontational and irrate?

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Question. What would you think that if during the confrontation, you informed the LEO that you were going to write a letter to his superiors requesting they educate him in the laws of Virginia regarding the carrying of firearms by citizens. Do you think this is a viable approach or would it tend to make the LEO more confrontational and irrate?

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If you said that to me... I would give you every ticket I could possible find to charge you with and remember you and your car for a longgggg time..

That is a huge insult. I would refrain from saying anything like that directly to the LEO.

You can get your point made in a more tactful way and be successful.

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I have been following some of the reports about LEO ignorance and borderline abuse in the Virginia Tidewater region with much dismay. That is the area of my lineage on my father's side and it goes back quite a ways. My wife's side of the family on her fathers' side is native Virginian back to 1636, so you can see my concerns.

I really do not like seeing this happening in my state and I applaud those of your who have taken it upon yourselves to "test the waters" and push their buttons a bit. Good for you!

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Superior gun and pawn (yellow sign) about 2 blocks from king street and across from blockbuster.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Question. What would you think that if during the confrontation, you informed the LEO that you were going to write a letter to his superiors requesting they educate him in the laws of Virginia regarding the carrying of firearms by citizens. Do you think this is a viable approach or would it tend to make the LEO more confrontational and irrate?

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Its all about negotiating position and tactics.Rememberthat phrase.Literally.

Included in the picture is the element of TIME. He is forced to act NOW. This is to your advantage. He has to engage you,develop reasonable suspicion into probable cause for an arrest, orfind there is insufficient and leave you alone; and he has to do it all in arelatively short period of time. You, however, areunder no such constraint. BIG ADVANTAGE for you.You have time to act after the incident. He does not. Once he walks away, the initiative is now yours, if you seize it,and there is little he can do about it except lie or come clean. Let me repeat that in different words: Once the encounter is over, his personnel file is at your mercy and he cannot shoot back. He will be forced to respond to yourcomplaint; you will have the initiative.

Giving a cop the quoted notice will likely make him confrontational or angry. Remember, he has some practiceman-handling people. Cops are not pushovers. They are not wimps. Regardless of their individual integrity or knowledge, they have forceful personalities. They have to--they wouldn't last long on the job if theydidn't.

Use your negotiating positionto your greatest advantageby choosing the optimal tactics for the situation. What is your negotiating position? Its huge. You are a citizen ofCommonwealth of Virginia and the US, protected by theFourth Amendment andnumerous court opinions derived from it. This is where knowledge enters in--knowledge about the statutes and court opinions equals knowledge about your negotiating position.

Standon your rights accordingto your judgement about the exact situation and the exact cop in front of you. Keep calm. And bepolite. If you are polite and he escalates, it will be on his own choice, andonlybecause you are standing on your rights or giving him correct law, which will make him look that much worse in the complaint and following internal investigation.

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Citizen wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

Question. What would you think that if during the confrontation, you informed the LEO that you were going to write a letter to his superiors requesting they educate him in the laws of Virginia regarding the carrying of firearms by citizens. Do you think this is a viable approach or would it tend to make the LEO more confrontational and irrate?

Click to expand...

Its all about negotiating position and tactics.Rememberthat phrase.Literally.

Included in the picture is the element of TIME. He is forced to act NOW. This is to your advantage. He has to engage you,develop reasonable suspicion into probable cause for an arrest, orfind there is insufficient and leave you alone; and he has to do it all in arelatively short period of time. You, however, areunder no such constraint. BIG ADVANTAGE for you.You have time to act after the incident. He does not. Once he walks away, the initiative is now yours, if you seize it,and there is little he can do about it except lie or come clean. Let me repeat that in different words: Once the encounter is over, his personnel file is at your mercy and he cannot shoot back. He will be forced to respond to yourcomplaint; you will have the initiative.

Giving a cop the quoted notice will likely make him confrontational or angry. Remember, he has some practiceman-handling people. Cops are not pushovers. They are not wimps. Regardless of their individual integrity or knowledge, they have forceful personalities. They have to--they wouldn't last long on the job if theydidn't.

Use your negotiating positionto your greatest advantageby choosing the optimal tactics for the situation. What is your negotiating position? Its huge. You are a citizen ofCommonwealth of Virginia and the US, protected by theFourth Amendment andnumerous court opinions derived from it. This is where knowledge enters in--knowledge about the statutes and court opinions equals knowledge about your negotiating position.

Standon your rights accordingto your judgement about the exact situation and the exact cop in front of you. Keep calm. And bepolite. If you are polite and he escalates, it will be on his own choice, andonlybecause you are standing on your rights or giving him correct law, which will make him look that much worse in the complaint and following internal investigation.

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Excellently put.. thanks for such a succinct explanation.

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LEO 229 wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

Question. What would you think that if during the confrontation, you informed the LEO that you were going to write a letter to his superiors requesting they educate him in the laws of Virginia regarding the carrying of firearms by citizens. Do you think this is a viable approach or would it tend to make the LEO more confrontational and irrate?

Click to expand...

If you said that to me... I would give you every ticket I could possible find to charge you with and remember you and your car for a longgggg time..

That is a huge insult. I would refrain from saying anything like that directly to the LEO.

You can get your point made in a more tactful way and be successful.

Click to expand...

It was just a question. While I am obviously cognizant of the fact that law enforcement officers are employed by us, the private citizen, I can iimagine that is also something they don't like to hear (though I think some should). We are their bosses, not the other way around. However, I also know that we have given them a certain amount of power and authority to take care of things for which they are charged, so I am sure I would refrain from rubbing their faces in the mud, as it were. I do support the various police agencies and have only had a negative encounter once in my adult life with an LEO. So my experience has been good and positive so far.


In going back over what I just wrote above, one might think my attitude is one of we-versus-them or maybe pompous. Not at all. The citizen and law enforcement are suppose to enjoy a symbiotic relationship for the purpose of mutual endeavors and results. Perhaps I should have stated something along the lines of, "the law enforcement agencies exist to serve the people". Still I suspect most know my intent.

Again, it was just a question. Perhaps your answer might have better been along the lines of, "I would advice against doing what you have asked. You would get better results by.....".