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Thread: Ruston Way, Take Two

  1. #1
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Well, after walking the Ruston Way 4th of July while open carrying, and passing literally dozens of police officers, I figured that someone in the TPD had passed the word that OC is legal in Washington. Apparently not.

    Bear in mind that I’ve skated on Ruston Way several times since my encounter with Officer Olsen without incident.

    Tonight, on my second lap around, I was stopped again. The TPD was doing another emphasis patrol of the area, so there were at least seven or eight officers, cars, motorcycles, and even bicycles. As I was approaching a police car that I had already passed at least once, I saw his door swing open and he gestured for me to stop. I didn’t think it prudent to be reaching for my tape recorder in my pocket, so I was unable to record the conversation.

    Officer Martin began by asking if I had a driver’s license. I thought that was odd, since I was at least a mile from my car. I asked if I was being detained, he said, “I just want to see your driver’s license”. Now, I would like to interject one thing here, Martin was at all times polite and respectful. If you’re going to be illegally detained, he’s the guy you want to do it to you. So I again asked if I was being detained, every bit as polite as he was, and he said yes. I asked for suspicion of what crime was I being detained, he answered that he was aware that it was legal to carry a gun, but he needed to check me out to determine that I was clean and allowed to carry. I reminded him that to detain me he had to have reasonable suspicion that I had committed a crime, and again asked what crime he was detaining me for. He said, “Because you’re carrying a gun”, and if someone on the waterfront called it in, that he wanted to know my name. I asked if he planned to give them my name and he said no, so I still don’t know why he needed to write my name in his notebook.

    The long and short of it is that he detained me for no other reason than that I was carrying a gun. None of the other officers felt the need to stop and inspect my papers during the 2+ hours I was down there, and they did see I was carrying. The stop was less than ten minutes, and he did nothing other than write my name in his notebook.

    I’m pretty peeved that TPD has little respect for our rights. I will call TPD on Monday and try to reach Sgt Griswold and reengage him on the issue.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    At least the officer was cordial this time around, but this is getting damned ridiculous.....it is apparent that Tacoma PD needs a wakeup call; the get-together should help with that, but I think it's time for some "saturation bombing" if you will. In other words, showing often and all around Tacoma that there are multiple people willing to stand up for their rights and open carry, as well as knowing their rights and the laws to protect those that exercise their rights against police overstepping their authority.....

    I would have asked for his supervisor right then, you can ask for that any time you are stopped by a LEO as far as I know.....then I would have went to town asking why it is necessary to harass a citizen that is not breaking any laws; since OC is legal and carrying is legal, the sidearm doesn't even come into play here, it is the same as if the cop came up to you if you weren't carrying and asked what your name was and wanted to stop you for no reason, at least in a legal sense.....either way the cop is detaining you for no reason and there is no probable cause that a crime has been committed.....I would have tried the "I see no legal cause for you to detain me officer, so I'm going to go," and if he insisted on holding you further, then ask for his supervisor to respond to the location since your civil rights are being violated by being held against your will when you have committed no crime.....

    Let us know what you hear after contacting TPD......

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    Hmm.

    Have you contacted the ACLU of Washington at all?

    (I wouldn't expect them to assist though, as you were carrying a firearm.)

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    At least the officer was cordial this time around, but this is getting damned ridiculous.....it is apparent that Tacoma PD needs a wakeup call; the get-together should help with that, but I think it's time for some "saturation bombing" if you will. In other words, showing often and all around Tacoma that there are multiple people willing to stand up for their rights and open carry, as well as knowing their rights and the laws to protect those that exercise their rights against police overstepping their authority.....

    I would have asked for his supervisor right then, you can ask for that any time you are stopped by a LEO as far as I know.....then I would have went to town asking why it is necessary to harass a citizen that is not breaking any laws; since OC is legal and carrying is legal, the sidearm doesn't even come into play here, it is the same as if the cop came up to you if you weren't carrying and asked what your name was and wanted to stop you for no reason, at least in a legal sense.....either way the cop is detaining you for no reason and there is no probable cause that a crime has been committed.....I would have tried the "I see no legal cause for you to detain me officer, so I'm going to go," and if he insisted on holding you further, then ask for his supervisor to respond to the location since your civil rights are being violated by being held against your will when you have committed no crime.....

    Let us know what you hear after contacting TPD......
    Ditto. We're basically going to do "saturation" in about two weeks anyway.

  5. #5
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Lonnie Wilson wrote:
    compmanio365 wrote:
    At least the officer was cordial this time around, but this is getting damned ridiculous.....it is apparent that Tacoma PD needs a wakeup call; the get-together should help with that, but I think it's time for some "saturation bombing" if you will. In other words, showing often and all around Tacoma that there are multiple people willing to stand up for their rights and open carry, as well as knowing their rights and the laws to protect those that exercise their rights against police overstepping their authority.....

    I would have asked for his supervisor right then, you can ask for that any time you are stopped by a LEO as far as I know.....then I would have went to town asking why it is necessary to harass a citizen that is not breaking any laws; since OC is legal and carrying is legal, the sidearm doesn't even come into play here, it is the same as if the cop came up to you if you weren't carrying and asked what your name was and wanted to stop you for no reason, at least in a legal sense.....either way the cop is detaining you for no reason and there is no probable cause that a crime has been committed.....I would have tried the "I see no legal cause for you to detain me officer, so I'm going to go," and if he insisted on holding you further, then ask for his supervisor to respond to the location since your civil rights are being violated by being held against your will when you have committed no crime.....

    Let us know what you hear after contacting TPD......
    Ditto. We're basically going to do "saturation" in about two weeks anyway.
    "Shock and Awe"... preferably without the Shock... or the Awe, unless you're talking about people being in Awe that someone actually likes being able to exercise their God-Given and Constitutionally-Affirmed rights.
    :celebrate
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    After dinner perhaps it might be worthwhile for all of us to head over to the police station and have a taped conversation with some friendly police officers.

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    I am going to Tacoma tonight to pick a friend up from the airport. We will see how it goes!

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    G27 wrote:
    I am going to Tacoma tonight to pick a friend up from the airport. We will see how it goes!
    The airport?... If you mean Sea-Tac Int'l Airport, Sea-Tac is now it's own city. Totally seperate from Tacoma PD.

    I'm sure Tacoma has its own smaller, local landing strips, though.
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    Try not carrying ID. Sterile carry is potentially one way to confront this tactic, forcing the police to either go way over-board, or back up and re-group.

    Meanwhile, make another formal complaint to their bosses.

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    Well my friend, who is a girl, hates going to Tacoma by herself. It's her boyfriend we're picking up. So she asked me to go along. I am very excited to see how my first OC in the big city goes. I got my list of codes all memorized and am ready to rock Tacoma or Sea-Tac's finest LEO minds!

    Edit: I will be sterile carrying, sans my CC license. Just incase this stupid polo covers any of my firearm up. Rather be safe than sorry.

  11. #11
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing that story. It'sa good experience to relate and we can all learn something from it. You handled it well and, really, so did Ofc. Martin given his constraint--the perceived need to confirm your identity. This was a need that he was not justified in satisfying.

    Mainsail wrote:
    So I again asked if I was being detained, every bit as polite as he was, and he said yes. I asked for suspicion of what crime was I being detained, he answered that he was aware that it was legal to carry a gun, but he needed to check me out to determine that I was clean and allowed to carry.
    I can easily grasp that reaching for the recorder initially would have been a risky move. But when he said "yes" to your pertinent question: "Am I being detained?" that would have been a good time to start openly recording the conversation, especially since he was very polite and didn't appear to be a JBT. (Also if single party assented recording is legal in your state.)

    I really think thatthe voice recording idea (if legal) is a really good one to keep things in control or to provide a terrific source for a complaint. Even in a state where both parties must agree to a recording, I think if one has a recorder one should simply ask the LEO in a stop if he objects to having the exchange recorded. If he says no, or if he doesn't answer, then I would record away. It's a low risk/high benefit tactic to record (legally).



    Mainsail wrote:

    I reminded him that to detain me he had to have reasonable suspicion that I had committed a crime, and again asked what crime he was detaining me for. He said, “Because you’re carrying a gun”, and if someone on the waterfront called it in, that he wanted to know my name. I asked if he planned to give them my name and he said no, so I still don’t know why he needed to write my name in his notebook.

    The long and short of it is that he detained me for no other reason than that I was carrying a gun.
    It sounds to me like you did show him your DL, although you don't actually say it above. That's your call to doso and must be made on the spot with the judgments you make there. But I'd recommend the idea of a "throwaway" ID photocopy. Keep a copy in your wallet next to your ID (DL or other) and give that to the LEO. Inyour case he said he wanted your name. But he really wanted toverify your identity. Martin talked as if it was the same thing, but it isnot. Giving him the original ID/DL, if that is what you did indeed do, gives ole polite Ofc. Martin a hostage that you probably won't leave behind.

    I hope youmake a formal complaint. I think you have a valid one.



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    So I had my code memorized; the law laid down. Even had the code printed out about all laws pertaining to OC'in and all that jazz. Went to SeaTac yesterday OC'in my Glock 27. Wouldn't you know it? Nothing happened. Nothing at all. I know I must have walked past a dozen TSA agents, a few cops, and at least 2 DHS officers. I have to say, I was kinda disappointed. I know a lot of passengers saw it, and other than a few double takes, that's all that was sad. I can't say that I wanted an encounter, but I was really thinking it would happen. Honestly, before I got into this whole OC'in thing I would have been a bit alarmed if I saw a man OC'in in an airport. Just not something you're used to. After that we went to Friday's and Krispey Kreme and nothing happened there, either. I guess I just got lucky. Sorry to all of you who get crap all the time over there.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    Hooray!!! :celebrate

    That, G27, is GREAT news! I keep hearing more and more accounts of "uneventful OC" and it makes me think that this state is finally getting its act together.
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    G27, do you know if the law is any different in the Spokane, WA airport? I think that I could carry in the lower areas, just not past the security gates. I usually leave my weapon in the trunk but it would sure be nice to not have to do that. Any citations would be appreciated.

    LoveMyCountry

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    LoveMyCountry wrote:
    G27, do you know if the law is any different in the Spokane, WA airport? I think that I could carry in the lower areas, just not past the security gates. I usually leave my weapon in the trunk but it would sure be nice to not have to do that. Any citations would be appreciated.

    LoveMyCountry
    Since it is owned jointly by the city and county of Spokane it is exactly the same as Sea-Tac airport. Legal carry everywhere but the sterile sections.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    LoveMyCountry, here is the specific code just incase you want to have proof:

    RCW 9.41.300 - Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances - Exceptions - Penalty.

    Subsection E states the following:

    (e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

    Now, upon further investigation SeaTac has a city ordinace banning firearms at the airport. But since RCW 9.41.290 gives state preemption, these local ordances are illegal and invalid. Open carry or conceal carry to your heart's content at your local airport, it is completely legal to do so!




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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    G27 wrote:
    (e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

    Now, upon further investigation SeaTac has a city ordinace banning firearms at the airport. But since RCW 9.41.290 gives state preemption, these local ordances are illegal and invalid.
    Nice catch there G27... Hmm... wonder if we should maybe do a 3rd Saturday Lunch at one of the many restaurants located in Sea-Tac Airport? *smirk* Might have some international and national affects on people: "Holy cow! They have more rights than I do!"
    :celebrate
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    JAC, it's just so crazy that I am down for it. Could you just imagine the looks we'd get if we were just all eating with our .45's and other assorted handguns holstered?! Haha. I am sure we'd make a few people cry.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    G27 wrote:
    JAC, it's just so crazy that I am down for it. Could you just imagine the looks we'd get if we were just all eating with our .45's and other assorted handguns holstered?! Haha. I am sure we'd make a few people cry.
    Especially the international travelers that can't even own firearms, much less carry them openly or concealed. Then there's those from other American States that can't do it that may go back and ask their congressman or governor why they can't.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    G27 wrote:
    LoveMyCountry, here is the specific code just incase you want to have proof:

    RCW 9.41.300 - Weapons prohibited in certain places - Local laws and ordinances - Exceptions - Penalty.

    Subsection E states the following:

    **** (e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

    Now, upon further investigation SeaTac has a city ordinace banning firearms at the airport. But since RCW 9.41.290 gives state preemption, these local ordances are illegal and invalid. Open carry or conceal carry to your heart's content at your local airport, it is completely legal to do so!


    Thanks G27!

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    As far as recording conversations go, you may want to take a look at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030 which states,

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    norahc wrote:
    As far as recording conversations go, you may want to take a look at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030 which states,

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    Howcan a conversation with a police officer on a public street or sidewalk ever be considered a 'private conversation'?

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    Mainsail wrote:
    norahc wrote:
    As far as recording conversations go, you may want to take a look at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030 which states,

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    Howcan a conversation with a police officer on a public street or sidewalk ever be considered a 'private conversation'?
    It isn't.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    norahc wrote:
    As far as recording conversations go, you may want to take a look at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030 which states,

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    Howcan a conversation with a police officer on a public street or sidewalk ever be considered a 'private conversation'?
    It isn't.
    And given the local PD's disrepect and wanton misinterpretation of the law, do you think it would really matter to the officer that is just looking for a reason to arrest you?

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    norahc wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    Mainsail wrote:
    norahc wrote:
    As far as recording conversations go, you may want to take a look at http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.73.030 which states,

    (b) Private conversation, by any device electronic or otherwise designed to record or transmit such conversation regardless how the device is powered or actuated without first obtaining the consent of all the persons engaged in the conversation.
    Howcan a conversation with a police officer on a public street or sidewalk ever be considered a 'private conversation'?
    It isn't.
    And given the local PD's disrepect and wanton misinterpretation of the law, do you think it would really matter to the officer that is just looking for a reason to arrest you?
    Given the fact that a violation of a persons civil rights can put them in a civil predicament as well as a possible suspension/termination from their department will calm the majority of them. The ones that it does not calm will be put in their place eventually.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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