Carrying on Tribal land

Mightybigjosh · Jul 10, 2007

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Anybody know the rules on carrying on Tribal Land? I seem to recall reading something about being granted permission by the Tribal Council but I can't remember where I found it.

Since there are so many Reservations in Washington, I imagine this could be a very important topic to cover.

Thank you,

-Josh

Mightybigjosh · Jul 10, 2007

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So, I found this on the Tulalip Tribes of Washington page, pretty harsh if you ask me! Also, if you read through the link, carrying in a bank on tribal land isProhibited. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing as this is tribal land, the state preemption does not apply. Any thoughts?

http://www.narf.org/nill/Codes/tulalipcode/tulalip49lawtitle3.htm#t312

3.12.1. Carrying concealed weapon.

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]1. A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon by knowingly carrying or bearing a dirk, dagger, pistol, revolver, slingshot, sword cane, billy club, knuckles made of any metal or other hard substance, knife having a blade at least 4 inches long, non-safety type razor, or any other deadly weapon which is wholly or partially covered by the clothing or wearing apparel of the person carrying the weapon, or is carried any place within the occupant compartment of a motor vehicle.[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]2. Subsection (1) does not apply to:[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]a. any law enforcement officer;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]b. a person authorized by a judge of the Tribal Court to carry a concealed weapon;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]c. a person permitted under state and tribal law to carry a concealed weapon; or[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]d. the carrying of arms on one's own premises or at one's home or place of business.[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]3. Carrying a concealed weapon is a Class C offense.[/font]

Now, the Swinomish Tribal code is a bit more reasonable

http://www.narf.org/nill/Codes/swinomishcode/4_5.pdf

[align=left]4-05.010 Carrying Concealed Weapon.[/align]

[align=left](A) Any person who goes about in public places armed with a dangerous weapon or[/align]

[align=left]firearm concealed upon his or her person, without having a current valid concealed[/align]

[align=left]weapons permit issued by the Tribe or another jurisdiction, commits the Class B[/align]

[align=left]offense of carrying a concealed weapon.[/align]

[align=left](B) Tribal law enforcement officers are exempted from this section.[/align]

[align=left][History] Ord. 184 (9/30/03); Ord. 75 (4/2/91).[/align]

(I've underlined AND Italicised the important entries)

eBratt · Jul 10, 2007

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When Washington and Utah first signed reciprocity a couple years ago, I was curious about how that would be viewed on tribal land. The only tribal land that I anticipated being on was Suquamish tribal land, which my wife's family (and now my family as well) lives right near and which I travel through almost daily.

I wrote an email to Chief Mike Lasnier with Suquamish Tribal Police. His response indicated that Washington State Laws apply to me, being a non-native, even when I am in "Indian Country" as he put it. He indicated that Non-natives are "not subject to the criminal laws of the Individual Tribes," to use his own words. He said that as long as I am complying with state laws, I should be fine.

I should emphasize that I have not tried OC as I travel through Suquammish on my way to and from Bainbridge Island. I am on a motocycle, so OC would be pretty visible to any office on the side of the road.

Anyway, I don't know if his comment that non-natives are not subject to the criminal laws of individual tribes is a global statement (which it would seem to be, as he was not specific) or if he was simply generalizing what he knew was the case for Suquamish.

Ethan

joeroket · Jul 10, 2007

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eBratt wrote:

When Washington and Utah first signed reciprocity a couple years ago, I was curious about how that would be viewed on tribal land. The only tribal land that I anticipated being on was Suquamish tribal land, which my wife's family (and now my family as well) lives right near and which I travel through almost daily.

I wrote an email to Chief Mike Lasnier with Suquamish Tribal Police. His response indicated that Washington State Laws apply to me, being a non-native, even when I am in "Indian Country" as he put it. He indicated that Non-natives are "not subject to the criminal laws of the Individual Tribes," to use his own words. He said that as long as I am complying with state laws, I should be fine.

I should emphasize that I have not tried OC as I travel through Suquammish on my way to and from Bainbridge Island. I am on a motocycle, so OC would be pretty visible to any office on the side of the road.

Anyway, I don't know if his comment that non-natives are not subject to the criminal laws of individual tribes is a global statement (which it would seem to be, as he was not specific) or if he was simply generalizing what he knew was the case for Suquamish.

Ethan

It is a global statement. The rule is that if a non-tribal member breaks a state law on tribal land then it can be treated as a federal offense. Non-tribal members are not subject to tribal "laws". Really they are not laws but rather a ruleset that is enforced by the tribe council and thier appointeesthat are applicable totribal members only.

USN_MA1 · Jul 10, 2007

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I was at the Casino the other day and asked about the rule of firearms in the Casino. Unfortunately, they did not know. Strange.

So, dumbing it down for this guy, you can carry (oc/cc) on Reservations if you are not "native"?

joshmmm · Jul 10, 2007

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At the Tulalip casino it is posted NO firearms just like a bar. They cite RCWs on the sign. This to me would seem to suggest that since they follow RCWs for no guns in a 21+ area (the whole casino is) that they are following RCWs for the rest of the reservation...

of course, IANAL and I am just guessing...

joeroket · Jul 10, 2007

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USN_MA1 wrote:

I was at the Casino the other day and asked about the rule of firearms in the Casino. Unfortunately, they did not know. Strange.

So, dumbing it down for this guy, you can carry (oc/cc) on Reservations if you are not "native"?

That is exactly correct. Carry is legal on tribal land the same as it is everywhere else in the state.

Most tribal casinos are 21 and over as designated by the liquor control board so carrying in them, if they are 21 and over casinos, would be in violation of RCW 9.41.300.

USN_MA1 · Jul 10, 2007

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cool. the one I was at was Clearwater. Is that 21 and up?

joeroket · Jul 10, 2007

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joshmmm wrote:

At the Tulalip casino it is posted NO firearms just like a bar. They cite RCWs on the sign. This to me would seem to suggest that since they follow RCWs for no guns in a 21+ area (the whole casino is) that they are following RCWs for the rest of the reservation...

of course, IANAL and I am just guessing...

They are required to follow state law when it is a non-tribal member. It does not really mean that they do not have "rules" to the contrary of state law for thier members.

joshmmm · Jul 10, 2007

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Clearwater is 18 and over to play, 21 and over to drink as long as you stay out of the lounge (I have not been there in a year, so this could have changed).

The funny thing is, when you walk in they check your id for age. If you are under 21, the give you a bracelet. There are piles of bracelets in the bathroom. (GREAT security plan they crafted)

eBratt · Jul 10, 2007

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So if it is 18 and over to play, not 21 and over, carry should be fine so long as you don't go into a lounge area (over 21) area. Correct?

joshmmm · Jul 10, 2007

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Yes, so long as the policy has not changed since I was there last... and so long as the other post is correct that they have to respect WA law on tribal land for non-members.

glock23 · Jul 10, 2007

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-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Wyman <rwyman@chehalistribe.org>
To:**************
Sent: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 7:37 am
Subject: RE: Firearms

Good Morning, ******

I can't speak for all tribes. The Chehalis Tribe honores all state concealed weapon permits.

Have a Great New Year,

Ralph Wyman

[align=left]-----Original Message-----
From: ********************
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 2:13 AM
To: Rwyman@chehalistribe.org
Subject: Firearms

[/align]
To: Ralph Wayman

I would like to know if Washington State Concealed Pistol permitsare honored on tribal land? Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
******

I sent this e-mail out to the Chehalis tribe in 2004 and the about was their reply

just_a_car · Jul 12, 2008

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joshmmm wrote:

At the Tulalip casino it is posted NO firearms just like a bar. They cite RCWs on the sign. This to me would seem to suggest that since they follow RCWs for no guns in a 21+ area (the whole casino is) that they are following RCWs for the rest of the reservation...

of course, IANAL and I am just guessing...

I was treating a friend of mine (who I recently introduced to OC) to dinner a few nights ago and he said he wanted to go to Tulalip Casino because they had lots of good food at a low price. Well, I parked, grabbed my dayplanner (has my training bulletins, state constitution A1S24, and multiple pamphlets), put on my camera (which records audio, since I lost my audio recorder), and we started across the parking lot.

As we approached the door, I was scanning for signage of "no guns/weapons" and my eye was caught by the Liquor Control Board "NO MINORS" sign right at the entrance. So I stopped, pointed it out to my friend and we turned and began to leave. On the way passed the corner of their entrance, I noticed out of the corner of my eye another sign up high that said camcorders and cameras were not allowed. It might have included all recording devices, but I didn't look that close.

He ended up deciding that he really just needed to get out of the house and thanked me for the drive and conversation and I just dropped him off at home.

So, even if they did allow OC/CC at the casino, state law prohibits it.

Bill Starks · Jul 12, 2008

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For the Makah Reservation (Neah Bay) the Chief of Police (Chief White) wants a copy of your CPL & driver license for non- tribal members.

bayfire66 · Jul 13, 2008

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I used to live On Tulalip Reservation and I was packing concealed in a fanny pack at the fireworks stands one yr and was approached by 2 tribal cops and asked if I was packing and I said yes and then they asked if they could see my CPL which I complied.No problems packing CC in Tulalip.They follow state law.

jbone · Jul 15, 2008

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Mightybigjosh wrote:

So, I found this on the Tulalip Tribes of Washington page, pretty harsh if you ask me! Also, if you read through the link, carrying in a bank on tribal land isProhibited. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing as this is tribal land, the state preemption does not apply. Any thoughts?

3.12.1. Carrying concealed weapon.

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]1. A person commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon by knowingly carrying or bearing a dirk, dagger, pistol, revolver, slingshot, sword cane, billy club, knuckles made of any metal or other hard substance, knife having a blade at least 4 inches long, non-safety type razor, or any other deadly weapon which is wholly or partially covered by the clothing or wearing apparel of the person carrying the weapon, or is carried any place within the occupant compartment of a motor vehicle.[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]2. Subsection (1) does not apply to:[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]a. any law enforcement officer;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]b. a person authorized by a judge of the Tribal Court to carry a concealed weapon;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]c. a person permitted under state and tribal law to carry a concealed weapon; or[/font]

I have researched this very thing on Tulalip Tribes. Back in May I called the Called tribal Court, they don’t know the answer. I called Tulalip PD and was told no carrying on reservation period. I knew that Tulalip Tribe Law and Order Code, Ordinance 49 suggested it was legal. I went further and wrote State Rep McCoy who is also the Tulalip Village Manager, I posed the question from the position of Tribal ordinance 49 and WA State Code. That day I received a reply from State Rep McCoy who put me in touch with the Tribal Lawyer, the lawyer maintained the position of reservation being a sovereign nation and state law not applying. I restated to the lawyer why was ordinance 49 written the way it was he never responded back.

During this Rep McCoy and Tulalip PD chief were being Cc on the email. My next email came from Tulalip PD Chief. He was interested and stated he would found out the information and get back to me. He in fact did get back to me and we met, he conducted a short interview took my information and conducted the local checks. Today he called me back and states all was fine and I may stop in to see him (after his vacation next week) and he’ll sign the back of my CPL.

There you have it and hope this helps.

bayfire66 · Jul 15, 2008

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[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]2. Subsection (1) does not apply to:[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]a. any law enforcement officer;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]b. a person authorized by a judge of the Tribal Court to carry a concealed weapon;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]c. a person permitted under state and tribal law to carry a concealed weapon; or[/font]

the way I read it if you have a CC you can CC on tribal property I had no problems when I CC on tulalip land and I have been checked before.

joeroket · Jul 15, 2008

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bayfire66 wrote:

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]2. Subsection (1) does not apply to:[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]a. any law enforcement officer;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]b. a person authorized by a judge of the Tribal Court to carry a concealed weapon;[/font]

[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]c. a person permitted under state and tribal law to carry a concealed weapon; or[/font]

Click to expand...

the way I read it if you have a CC you can CC on tribal property I had no problems when I CC on tulalip land and I have been checked before.

The way I read it the treaties and federal law say, yes we have cited them before, that tribal laws do not affect and are not applicable to non-indians. The tribal court nor the police dept, unless they are commissioned by the sate via the Sheriff have any jurisdiction over non-indians at all.

Also don't waste yout time with McCoy, he does not care about non-indians at all. I have tried to communicate with him on numerous occasions as my rep and was flat out told that he didn't know what I wanted him to do about it. A soon as I turned to Mike Sells the issues were addressed.

jbone · Jul 15, 2008

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joeroket wrote:

Also don't waste yout time with McCoy, he does not care about non-indians at all. I have tried to communicate with him on numerous occasions as my rep and was flat out told that he didn't know what I wanted him to do about it. A soon as I turned to Mike Sells the issues were addressed.

That's strange, as he very helpful withright up front and responded to my email the same day.

Carrying on Tribal land

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