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Thread: I am not dumb for OC

  1. #1
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    This comes from my experiences on all of these 2A forums. I will just generalize.

    Why do some people think that somehow I am stupid for OC?

    How are they able to segregate themselves from me, even though we are both 'gun guys'.

    Why do they have to make statements that imply, or outright say,that I am 'dumb', yet they have received all the illumination of the universe with their conceal permit?

    If I thought for even half a second that 'enlightenment' to all of lifes mysteries was to be had for $50 from Baton Rouge Louisiana, I would file for everyone in my house.

    I think we all have our reasons for OC or CC. I just don't think that either choice makes you smart or dumb. The only naive choice is to NOT carry.

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    It reminds me of the movie "Dogma" from a few years back... it's the difference between ideas and beliefs. When I started carrying, I was in Texas and I had no option about whether or not I had to conceal all the time. So when I moved up here to Colorado for grad school, the choice that I could carry openly when it was hot, when I didn't feel like wearing baggy pants or a waist pack or an overshirt, was a great idea. I could conceal to keep my pistol dry in the rain, or I could wear it out to keep it away from sweat on a hot day.

    But there are people who become obsessed with the "strategy" of a potential encounter, or are utterly convinced that the closest SWAT team is going to throw them to the pavement the moment the outline of their hilt becomes gleanable under their shirts... then, it becomes a question of belief and not idea. Once they believe the way they do it is correct, then it's like religion: everyone else is wrong and all levels of extreme behavior becomes permissible. I mean, there's little more madness than when people who are supposedly working towards a common goal fighting amongst themselves for no good reason. Both sides of the argument want it to be legal and moreover accepted that law-abiding people carry guns in a civil manner in day-to-day life, so why some would then say "if you don't conceal it, you shouldn't be carrying it" is totally lost on me.

    I've come up only a couple of people in my years of carrying who made it personal or got into a true argument that concealing was the only way to carry a gun in the modern age. One, a gun shop owner who was OCing himself at the time behind the counter, called me a "goddamned moron with a death wish" for doing it... I responded with a wide, sarcastic shocked face and said, "Oh my God! Thank you for telling me, I had no idea! I mean, I always thought because I'm working on my PhD that I was smart, but I was wrong! I'm going to get on the phone right now with my adviser and tell him to throw me out of the program... maybe I can transfer to a group home where I belong!" That shut him up quick for the moment (and was more vain on my part than it should've been in the name of civility), but I find that people in the wider world are a bit more reasonable than the Internet Heroes of PDO or Glocktalk... I read both each day to keep in tune with as much news around the country as possible, but I long ago gave up trying to reason with people who believe and don't think.

    My two denarii.

  3. #3
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    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose.

    I carry concealed and openly. More often the former but more so because it suits my style of dress best than any other reason.

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    I OC because I'd rather spend the permit money on more ammo.

    Or games. Or Jeep parts. Or computer parts. Or tuition...
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  5. #5
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    I have a deeper reason than fashion or buying more ammo to prefer OC: I don't want to aid and abet the delinquency of "the state"and itsillegal gun permit system.

    -- John D.


    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    I thought you couldn't OC in Texas?
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  7. #7
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    Denwego is absolutely right. In another post I alluded to the same sentiment he describes. As we have been campaigning for Open Carry in Texas I am amazed by the number of people I encounter who look at me like I've got two heads. What seems to be so simple and logical is just beyond their grasp. The fact of the matter is we're not trying to take anything away from them (in Texas) but rather offer them another option. There is a time and a place for both OC and CC. But to many they seem to take offence to the suggestion that OC is the ultimate expression of our 2nd Amendment rights. I also think it may have something to do with experience. When I ask them if they have ever lived somewhere where they were allowed to OC or have they ever travelled to an OC state and experienced that freedom - the answer is almost always "no." Cloudcroft is a TCDL member and one of the "open-minded" Texans who truly understands the reason we need OC in Texas. We will succeed in getting OC in Texas!

    Gary Williams, President TCDL

    http://www.txcdl.org

    txopencarry@txcdl.org



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    Well Gary, if anyone says crime will go up, point to VA vs MD for crime rates.

    http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/...e_Ranking.html

    DC is also nice to include, as well. 51st for population, number one for Violent crime, Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, Robbery, Aggravated assault, and
    Motor vehicle theft....
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  9. #9
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    AbNo,

    You're right, we can't OC in TX...I just said that I prefer to OC. And I do not have a CHL (couldn't get one even if I wanted to). But I live just "down the block" from NM where I CAN OC....I do that when I go there, usually when I cruise up there on my bike.


    And as for DC and it's high crime rates, we won't even get into who's doing most of that crap. i.e., the most-relevant race issue.


    Arizonatexan,

    Yes, it's kind of like telling a parent, "You're not losing a son/daughter, you're gaining a son/daughter-in-law."

    I'm afraid most people in this country are just timid people, afraid of whatever reaction they get whenothers -- citizens and cops -- see them OC-ing, and that forms the basis of their antagonism.They just can't handle the "pressure" so they prefer to stay "in the closet" if you will...by CC-ing. They still get to feel like they're "rebels" yet they don't have to let anyone know they really are and so avoid public reactions.I don't know if they can be helped if they're just too scared to OC.

    I believe that untill OC become a fact of life -- where sheeple are no longer alarmed at seeing decent citizens OC-ing, more of us need to OC (in states that allow it of course) not only to REAFFRIM that right to everyone (as well as ourselves), but also in order to educate the sheeple and cops, even if we have only CC-ed previously. After the "Great Awakening" -- where every state allows OC, cop harrassment ceases and most people don't get scared anymore/call 911, or maybe even a Federal OC blanket law allowing OC is achieved --maybe then we can ease up a bit.

    Or maybe not.


    If TX gets OC, that will be the ONLY way I will LEGALLY be able to carry in this state, while I still live here that is (I plan to move within 5 years). And when I move, it will be to a Gold Star OC state.

    -- John D.






    (formerly of Colorado Springs, CO)

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    I prefer to OC when I am in Utah or other places that I am legal to do so. I can't even carry in Oregon (at least where I live) yet because I don't have a CHL and Beaverton, Portland, etc have loaded firearm bans for non permit holders . I wish Oregon had a preemption law that actually made sense.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
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    preacher wrote:
    This comes from my experiences on all of these 2A forums.* I will just generalize.

    Why do some people think that somehow I am stupid for OC?*

    How are they able to segregate themselves from me, even though we are both 'gun guys'.*

    Why do they have to make statements that imply, or outright say,*that I am 'dumb', yet they have received all the illumination of the universe with their conceal permit?

    If I thought for even half a second that 'enlightenment' to all of lifes mysteries was to be had for $50 from Baton Rouge Louisiana, I would file for everyone in my house.*

    I think we all have our reasons for OC or CC.* I just don't think that either choice makes you smart or dumb.* The only naive choice is to NOT carry.
    I just tried discussing this very issue on The Firing line Forum. The irrationality of the CC only crowd is actually unbounded. Just by advocating OC, the presumption is that you are somehow attacking CC.

    For most of these people, it does not matter how many times you tell them you are NOT attacking CC, and that you are simply suggesting more ways to carry and more options for self defense. Part of the problem seem to be related to some kind of distorted "class" perception. A lot of CCers think that having the permit makes them special, and since OC does not in most cases require a permit, that class distinction goes away.

    While I do not hold this idea myself, many on this forum argue that the CHP is a waste of money if you can OC. So a lot of CC only folks look at that position as kind of a backdoor implication that they must be stupid for spending the money to carry, when they could do it for free. The way I see it the CHP process is a tax imposed by the state to allow a person to hide the weapon. Nothing more. So having the permit is a way of expanding my carry options, and avoiding an issue of my jacket happens to cover the weapon.

    I CC and OC indifferently, based on my needs at the time.
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  12. #12
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    preacher wrote:
    This comes from my experiences on all of these 2A forums. I will just generalize.

    Why do some people think that somehow I am stupid for OC?

    How are they able to segregate themselves from me, even though we are both 'gun guys'.

    Why do they have to make statements that imply, or outright say,that I am 'dumb', yet they have received all the illumination of the universe with their conceal permit?

    If I thought for even half a second that 'enlightenment' to all of lifes mysteries was to be had for $50 from Baton Rouge Louisiana, I would file for everyone in my house.

    I think we all have our reasons for OC or CC. I just don't think that either choice makes you smart or dumb. The only naive choice is to NOT carry.
    I just tried discussing this very issue on The Firing line Forum. The irrationality of the CC only crowd is actually unbounded. Just by advocating OC, the presumption is that you are somehow attacking CC.

    For most of these people, it does not matter how many times you tell them you are NOT attacking CC, and that you are simply suggesting more ways to carry and more options for self defense. Part of the problem seem to be related to some kind of distorted "class" perception. A lot of CCers think that having the permit makes them special, and since OC does not in most cases require a permit, that class distinction goes away.

    While I do not hold this idea myself, many on this forum argue that the CHP is a waste of money if you can OC. So a lot of CC only folks look at that position as kind of a backdoor implication that they must be stupid for spending the money to carry, when they could do it for free. The way I see it the CHP process is a tax imposed by the state to allow a person to hide the weapon. Nothing more. So having the permit is a way of expanding my carry options, and avoiding an issue of my jacket happens to cover the weapon.

    I CC and OC indifferently, based on my needs at the time.
    I am in agreement with you on this...

    Many people like to make the argument of a great tactical advantage for CC, which at times I might be able to see if you were being confronted by a group of assailants.

    The only other advantage I can see as worthwhile for getting a concealed permit, is if you are going to a kids function, or birthday party, or somewhere where people do not appreciate firearms in their home, office whatver, but do not have it posted.

    Having a concealed permit does not make you smarter, but it does make for more dynamic carrying possibilities.



  13. #13
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    I CC and OC indifferently, based on my needs at the time.
    Exactly.. I do both for the same reason. There are times when I do one or the other for very real reasons (now, since I crossed the threshold 2 weeks ago!). I have not one bit of problem with someone who wishes to OC or CC or do both as the need arises.

    Crazy that some people of our "carry culture" are of a mind to enter into such meaningless and separational discussions.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  14. #14
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Hawkflyer wrote:
    preacher wrote:
    This comes from my experiences on all of these 2A forums. I will just generalize.

    Why do some people think that somehow I am stupid for OC?

    How are they able to segregate themselves from me, even though we are both 'gun guys'.

    Why do they have to make statements that imply, or outright say,that I am 'dumb', yet they have received all the illumination of the universe with their conceal permit?

    If I thought for even half a second that 'enlightenment' to all of lifes mysteries was to be had for $50 from Baton Rouge Louisiana, I would file for everyone in my house.

    I think we all have our reasons for OC or CC. I just don't think that either choice makes you smart or dumb. The only naive choice is to NOT carry.
    I just tried discussing this very issue on The Firing line Forum. The irrationality of the CC only crowd is actually unbounded. Just by advocating OC, the presumption is that you are somehow attacking CC.

    For most of these people, it does not matter how many times you tell them you are NOT attacking CC, and that you are simply suggesting more ways to carry and more options for self defense. Part of the problem seem to be related to some kind of distorted "class" perception. A lot of CCers think that having the permit makes them special, and since OC does not in most cases require a permit, that class distinction goes away.

    While I do not hold this idea myself, many on this forum argue that the CHP is a waste of money if you can OC. So a lot of CC only folks look at that position as kind of a backdoor implication that they must be stupid for spending the money to carry, when they could do it for free. The way I see it the CHP process is a tax imposed by the state to allow a person to hide the weapon. Nothing more. So having the permit is a way of expanding my carry options, and avoiding an issue of my jacket happens to cover the weapon.

    I CC and OC indifferently, based on my needs at the time.
    Hey Hawk. I just got finished reading through the postings on Firing Line to which you referred. I am really sorry and dismayed to see such division among gun people between OC and CC. Hell, I thought we were all in this together. The anti's would love to read this.

    Dismissing the references to statistics, to historic data, to rights, and to egos, I have to believe (and I ferently do) that the choice is up to the individual who choses to carry in the first place. I do not have the experience nor the history of OC'ing since I am quite new to this game (please pardon the use of the word). But for me, it would not matter one iota whether or not I was a first-time OC'er or a lifelong proponent of the method.. of of CC, for that matter. I am a Virginian and and American, and the decision I take is mine and mine along.

    I just irks me to see the friction in those postings. How better to cause separation than to feed the friction?


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    That is the main topic I was talking about Hawkflyer. It amazes me how vehemently some people oppose OC. How they seem to think I am somehow 'not as smart' as they or that I just 'haven't gotten it' yet.

    I do understand their beliefs. I do understand why they choose the way they do. I am only asking for them to extend the same courtesy to me. It is my choice not theirs, as it is my life, not theirs. I never said that OC was the best way for everybody, everyday and in every situation.

    I only see it as one of the options available to me. CC requires the 'tax' to the state or the 'registration' of the gun owner, but provides you with another option.

    Each method has situational pros and cons which could be 'debated' all day.

    I just do not think we should look at each other as 'stupid' for our personal choices.

    The only 'bad' choice is to be unprepared.


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    I agree with preacher, I thought we were all one big happy family.

    I have CC'd for about 4 months now. I got a permit, got a weapon and began carrying everywhere it was legal. Then about 2 weeks ago I took a trip to OR to visit my brother and while researching the laws found out OC was legal. I was intrigued and decided to OC my two days there. It was awesome. I wascrazy nervous at first but that soon subsided and I settled into my newfound freedom.

    It feltlike OCwas a natural progressionof CC, a further expression of my legal freedoms and rights. I guess not everybody feels the same way.

    In the beginning I spent alot of time on defensivecarry.com, great bunch of folks. But looking back I realize that OC hardly ever came up in the threads as a subject. There is a type of segregation between the groups and I am not sure why. Its too bad.

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    preacher wrote:
    Why do some people think that somehow I am stupid for OC?
    I think a lot of it may be that many people's first book on defensive gun use is one of the dozens of popular books by Massad Ayoob. (Mine certainly was.)

    He's smart as hell, and a total expert, but he's also LE. I believe that many LE tend to have a dim view on OC, partially because they're threatened by it, and partly because they are called daily to situations where people people are at their worst, so tend to assume the worst of people in general.

    I first read the concept that "OC means you'll be the first guy shot in a robbery" in one of Ayoob's books. But I've yet to read about a confirmed case of that, even in one of his books. (Except when the OC was done by LE.)

    I'm getting a CCW as soon as I move to Wyoming, but mainly so I can carry places OC is banned, but CC is not. And so I can freely travel CCing around the adjoining states, which honor a Wyoming CCW (except for North Dakota).

    MWD

  18. #18
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    MichaelWDean wrote:
    preacher wrote:
    Why do some people think that somehow I am stupid for OC?
    I think a lot of it may be that many people's first book on defensive gun use is one of the dozens of popular books by Massad Ayoob. (Mine certainly was.)

    He's smart as hell, and a total expert, but he's also LE. I believe that many LE tend to have a dim view on OC, partially because they're threatened by it, and partly because they are called daily to situations where people people are at their worst, so tend to assume the worst of people in general.

    I first read the concept that "OC means you'll be the first guy shot in a robbery" in one of Ayoob's books. But I've yet to read about a confirmed case of that, even in one of his books. (Except when the OC was done by LE.)

    I'm getting a CCW as soon as I move to Wyoming, but mainly so I can carry places OC is banned, but CC is not. And so I can freely travel CCing around the adjoining states, which honor a Wyoming CCW (except for North Dakota).

    MWD
    I think this is a valid statement, though I would say either "a few" or perhaps, "some" instead of "many".

    There may be some LEO's who don't like seeing citizens OC'ing because if a situation arises, they do not want their attention distracted by such an individual when seconds could count. Also a few may believe that even though we have this right, they would rather we not exercise it. And I suspect even fewer believe that only them and the military should be carrying arms.. not civilians.

    However, I have yet to have a negative encounter with any LEO from any department, or federal or state agency. All have been positive thus far.


    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  19. #19
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    I just got finished reading the posts over at the firing line. Wow. Nice try Hawkflyer. It seems there are lots of folks who think that it's ok to carry a gun, as long as you do it by THEIR rules.

    This is my favorit part:

    Quote from Hawkflyer:

    If people are "scared, upset, made nervous or disturbed" by the sight of a gun, then they have an unnatural fear of an inanimate object.


    Reply from WildAlaska:

    "BS...and you know it....so try this one....you are out a 5 am on a deserted street and you see a dreadlocked Rasta walking towards you and he has...hmm a double shoulder rig with twin chorme Desert Eagles...do you go just a teeny weeny itsy bit condition yellow?"



    Wow. This sounds like something out of a bad movie and highly unlikely, however, I'd be at condition yellow at 5am on a deserted street regardless of how many other folks were there.

    WildAlaska is a scared-e-cat, and he wants everyone else to act as he thinks is prudent. Typical!


  20. #20
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    Not if they are chrome. I can tell if he is drawing down on me when the shiny
    chrome suddenly gets covered by his hand. Now if the are black, then I have
    to pay more attention.

    But if you are worried about a thug walking down the street with a gun, then
    quit re-electing crooks who will not keep criminals locked up in prison.

    Bet that undercover Rasta is just as scared of me, and any leo who missed the
    briefing.



  21. #21
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    It sort of the same debate between hunters and people who like semi autos with 30rds standard, the hunters always think there guns won't be banned and question why we need 30rds.

  22. #22
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    Yes, that is true. It is funny how easily we are divided up into little groups instead of band together as one big group.





    That better LT?

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