Interesting reading

DeerForce1 · Jul 14, 2007

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We were talking about firearms at work the other day & i found out that 1 of the guys working for me has a CHP. We werecompairing permits & i read some suprising things on the back of his permit. I made a copy of it.

The back of his permit said:

1. This permit does not permit you to carry a gun openly.

2. Your permit is valid for the State of Alabama only.

3.Your permit is void if you are arrested, on any charge.

4. Your pistol permit does not allow you to carry a pistol in any place that serves alcohol or while you are drinking or using illegal drugs.

5. Your pistol permit is also void in any air terminal or in any Court House or other public biulding whether City, County, State or Federal.

6. If you carry a pistol under any of the above conditions where it is void, you will be subject to ARREST for carrying a concealed weapon.

How many incorrect statements can you count on this official, legal document provided by the local sherriff?.....................................................................DF1

kurtmax_0 · Jul 15, 2007

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1. This is absolutely correct. The permit does not permit you to carry openly. It's already legal to carry openly. The permit only permits carry in a vehicle or concealed.

2. This is correct too. But, other states my recognize an Alabama permit.

3. Not true... a Sheriff must revoke a permit case-by-case with a valid reason. The permit cannot automatically 'void' itself.

4. This is fine. Sheriffs are allowed to issue qualified permits (meaning restrict locations) Again, this would only prohibit concealed carry in restricted locations. If you had your license revoked for carrying openly, you would have a good case against the Sheriff....

5. See above

6. True and not true. Again, if you have a qualfied license and carry in a restricted location, than you aren't covered by the license protections....

I think that many Sheriffs are confused about firearms laws. Most seem to think that you need a permit to carry a pistol... period.

This license also says 'gun', not just pistol. But the permit only permits concealed carry of pistols, and there are even fewer laws on carrying other firearms. Shotguns and rifles can be carried in a vehicle, loaded and ready to fire, without violating any laws.

You could also obtain permision to carry concealed on any private property, wether the Sheriff allows it on the permit or not. For example, if you get permission from a bar owner, than you would have a good case versus the Sheriff for your license getting revoked. Same for the air terminal. Especially if you are a pilot of your own aircraft: you have complete control over your craft, and can bring weapons and such on-board. (In fact, it's possible to carry weapons at major airports through the General Aviation terminal and onto your own airplane (or someone elses with the pilots permission)).

Comp-tech · Jul 15, 2007

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

1. This is absolutely correct. The permit does not permit you to carry openly. It's already legal to carry openly. The permit only permits carry in a vehicle or concealed.
If LEOs only knew the law......

2. This is correct too. But, other states my recognize an Alabama permit.
True....all these "restrictions" were on PLs before repro agreements......

3. Not true... a Sheriff must revoke a permit case-by-case with a valid reason. The permit cannot automatically 'void' itself.
It's a shame that they just don't seem to know this......

4. This is fine. Sheriffs are allowed to issue qualified permits (meaning restrict locations) Again, this would only prohibit concealed carry in restricted locations. If you had your license revoked for carrying openly, you would have a good case against the Sheriff....
4. As far as I can find in the Code of Alabama and AG opinions, a restricted PL is NOT restricted to location but to a single firearm.....I can find NO authority for the sherrif to restrict locations not in Code (please correct me if you've found something)....although carrying while drinking or doping could certainly prove you not to be responsible and give cause for revocation.

5. See above

6. True and not true. Again, if you have a qualfied license and carry in a restricted location, than you aren't covered by the license protections....
See 4 above.....

I think that many Sheriffs are confused about firearms laws. Most seem to think that you need a permit to carry a pistol... period.
Without a doubt......

This license also says 'gun', not just pistol. But the permit only permits concealed carry of pistols, and there are even fewer laws on carrying other firearms. Shotguns and rifles can be carried in a vehicle, loaded and ready to fire, without violating any laws.
On mine, it says "State of Alabama Pistol License"

You could also obtain permision to carry concealed on any private property, wether the Sheriff allows it on the permit or not. For example, if you get permission from a bar owner, than you would have a good case versus the Sheriff for your license getting revoked. Same for the air terminal. Especially if you are a pilot of your own aircraft: you have complete control over your craft, and can bring weapons and such on-board. (In fact, it's possible to carry weapons at major airports through the General Aviation terminal and onto your own airplane (or someone elses with the pilots permission).
Commercial air terminals are covered by federal law and are off limits as are most GA terminals that share a common terminal area which handles commercial traffic....GA airports are different but are still under FAA control even though they are publicly owned.
A PL "gives permission" to carry on private property by the fact that it does not prohibit it,.....unless said property is "posted" No Firearms etc or the owner/manager has otherwise "made it known" to you that firearms are not allowed.......how would you buy gas, groceries etc without carrying onto private property?

kurtmax_0 · Jul 15, 2007

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I don't have my info on this computer, but iirc, a 'qualified' license meant it had locational restrictions. I could be wrong. If so, than most of those statements on the license are invalid. Also, I know that most General Aviation terminals are not off-limits for firearms. Of course, they seem to always be in completely seperate buildings than the main terminals. Most don't have metal detectors and stuff anyways...

Comp-tech · Jul 15, 2007

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

I don't have my info on this computer, but iirc, a 'qualified' license meant it had locational restrictions. I could be wrong. If so, than most of those statements on the license are invalid. Also, I know that most General Aviation terminals are not off-limits for firearms. Of course, they seem to always be in completely seperate buildings than the main terminals. Most don't have metal detectors and stuff anyways...

I just found AGO 81-00044.......it states that a qualified PL is limited to one particular pistol by putting SN on it AND can have locational restrictions.
IIRC, there was a court desision that stopped the serial number from being put on PLs.....it determined that doing so was a form of registration that conflicted with Al Code (may have been a privacy issue since PL info is public) and therefor a SN could no longer be required on a PL
I have never seen a qualified PL and don't think that they are issued any more because of this. The same AGO states that "an unlimited PL may be issued to a person to carry a pistol anywhere in the state at any time".....I haven't found any authority for the sherrif to add limitations of any kind to an unrestricted PL.
Let me know if you have any contrary info........

Comp-tech · Jul 15, 2007

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Sorry....double post

DeerForce1 · Jul 15, 2007

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I agree with what you are saying but this is what i see as being implied

1. You do not need a permit to carry openly but by puting this on the pl do you think they are trying to imply that you cannot open carry at all? Or maybe they are trying to discourage it by putting this on there?

2. It sounds to me like they are trying to imply that it is only good in Alabama. When in reality that is false.

3. A permit is void just because of an arrest? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Isn't that like having you drivers license revoked as soon as the officer pulls you over in your car? Before he even gets out of his car.

4. I did not see anything on the permit about it being qualified or having any additional restrictions and from what i have found it is legal to carry in a place that serves alcohol. I do agree with not carrying when drinking & not doing illegal drugs at all.

5. I could be wrong but i thought it was legal to carry in an airport terminal as long as you did not try to go past the secured area. Also i did a quick search & did not find the other places listed as off limits.

6. I agree that it you are in a restricted location that it makes the pl invalid but i disagree with most of the rstrictions listed on the back of the permit & the ways it can become void.

I think i'll put on my tin foil hat now, there's just too much conspiracy......................................................DF1

kurtmax_0 · Jul 15, 2007

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Well, there has to be some legal carry in an airport terminal. How would you check firearms in with baggage otherwise? IIRC, you just can't carry past into "secure" areas. IE, after they do the full body cavity search and such. (I haven't travelled on airlines for a looooonggg time.)

Also. I think most of the info on the back of those pistol licenses is simply outdated or info put on there by misinformed people. I don't think that Sheriff's are conspiring to misinform tons of people. In fact, I would bet most Sheriffs don't even write their own policies, and just get some minion to do it.

Most LEOs don't know what the law is. Their training consists of 99% kicking people on the ground and 1% law....

You'd be surprised how many people even think owning firearms is illegal. I mean, any firearms at all...

Comp-tech · Jul 15, 2007

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kurtmax_0 wrote:

Well, there has to be some legal carry in an airport terminal. How would you check firearms in with baggage otherwise? IIRC, you just can't carry past into "secure" areas. IE, after they do the full body cavity search and such. (I haven't travelled on airlines for a looooonggg time.)
It is legal to carry a firearm (with restrictions of course) into an airport inside luggage to be "checked"....no carry on.

Also. I think most of the info on the back of those pistol licenses is simply outdated or info put on there by misinformed people. I don't think that Sheriff's are conspiring to misinform tons of people. In fact, I would bet most Sheriffs don't even write their own policies, and just get some minion to do it.
They have been unchanged for years and I think they may get the PL "template" from the "Sherrifs Association" or some other place.....too many counties have the restrictions exactly alike......almost have to come from a "central source" IMHO.

Most LEOs don't know what the law is. Their training consists of 99% kicking people on the ground and 1% law....
LOL...1%....if that!

You'd be surprised how many people even think owning firearms is illegal. I mean, any firearms at all...

DeerForce1 · Jul 16, 2007

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I would think having a firearm in your checked luggage would be different than carrying a concealed firearm on your person. In the luggage it is also in a locked case inaccessable & with no ammo. On your person it is loaded (or should be) & holstered within easy access. But i believe you can carry on your personinto the general areas of an airport such as ticketing or the baggage area just not into the secure areas past the security check point.

I just wonder how big of a headache the incorrect statements on the back of the permit could cause.

For example in#2. Youhave a Leo interactionin a state that recognizes your Al. permit but the officer reads the part on the back that says "valid for the state of Alabama only" & assumes you are carrying illegally in his statebecause the back of the permit says Al. only.

Or #4. Your coming out of Olive Garden in Al. & get attacked by4 men & have to pull your firearm the waitress sees what happens & calls Leo. Leo shows up & sees that the back of the PL says you cannot carry any place that serves alcohol & Olive Garden serves alcohol.What does he do then? According the the PL your in violation & your Pl is void.

Just a couple of thoughts...............................................................DF1

Comp-tech · Jul 16, 2007

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DeerForce1 wrote:

I would think having a firearm in your checked luggage would be different than carrying a concealed firearm on your person. In the luggage it is also in a locked case inaccessable & with no ammo. On your person it is loaded (or should be) & holstered within easy access. But i believe you can carry on your personinto the general areas of an airport such as ticketing or the baggage area just not into the secure areas past the security check point.
Sure it would be different.....it may be legal but I would almost bet money that you would be, at the very least, questioned and maybe even arrested.

I just wonder how big of a headache the incorrect statements on the back of the permit could cause.
Just guessing but, I think you'd have to show proof that the statements are incorrect or be arrested.

For example in#2. Youhave a Leo interactionin a state that recognizes your Al. permit but the officer reads the part on the back that says "valid for the state of Alabama only" & assumes you are carrying illegally in his statebecause the back of the permit says Al. only.
See above...proof of reciprocity.

Or #4. Your coming out of Olive Garden in Al. & get attacked by4 men & have to pull your firearm the waitress sees what happens & calls Leo. Leo shows up & sees that the back of the PL says you cannot carry any place that serves alcohol & Olive Garden serves alcohol.What does he do then? According the the PL your in violation & your Pl is void.
Proof again......this "proof" is what we in Alabama need to find, have and show to every LEO that we come in contact with......in the correct "tone" of course.

Just a couple of thoughts...............................................................DF1

kurtmax_0 · Jul 17, 2007

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I'd be willing to bet the only tone they would be willing to listen to is a lawsuit after arrest...

Which leads me to another off-topic question. One of the local LEOs said I had to have a "clean arrest record" to get a pistol permit. tehwtf?!!! What do arrests have to do with it? I thought only convictions mattered, but now it's just arrests?

Same thing for employment applications. They always ask if you were arrested, not convicted. It's retarded....

DeerForce1 · Jul 19, 2007

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Comp-tech wrote:

DeerForce1 wrote:

I would think having a firearm in your checked luggage would be different than carrying a concealed firearm on your person. In the luggage it is also in a locked case inaccessable & with no ammo. On your person it is loaded (or should be) & holstered within easy access. But i believe you can carry on your personinto the general areas of an airport such as ticketing or the baggage area just not into the secure areas past the security check point.
Sure it would be different.....it may be legal but I would almost bet money that you would be, at the very least, questioned and maybe even arrested.

I just wonder how big of a headache the incorrect statements on the back of the permit could cause.
Just guessing but, I think you'd have to show proof that the statements are incorrect or be arrested.

For example in#2. Youhave a Leo interactionin a state that recognizes your Al. permit but the officer reads the part on the back that says "valid for the state of Alabama only" & assumes you are carrying illegally in his statebecause the back of the permit says Al. only.
See above...proof of reciprocity.

Or #4. Your coming out of Olive Garden in Al. & get attacked by4 men & have to pull your firearm the waitress sees what happens & calls Leo. Leo shows up & sees that the back of the PL says you cannot carry any place that serves alcohol & Olive Garden serves alcohol.What does he do then? According the the PL your in violation & your Pl is void.
Proof again......this "proof" is what we in Alabama need to find, have and show to every LEO that we come in contact with......in the correct "tone" of course.

Just a couple of thoughts...............................................................DF1

Click to expand...

That's the problem. Having proof is not always enough. Some leos in Va. have already shown that they do not care to look at the information that is provide by a citizen. I think it was the incident with the Tony 7 that the police said flat out that they did not want to see the "literature" that someone tried to give them. Having proof in your pocket is no help if they dont' believe it or even look at it...................................................................................DF1

Comp-tech · Jul 19, 2007

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DeerForce1 wrote:

Comp-tech wrote:

DeerForce1 wrote:

I would think having a firearm in your checked luggage would be different than carrying a concealed firearm on your person. In the luggage it is also in a locked case inaccessable & with no ammo. On your person it is loaded (or should be) & holstered within easy access. But i believe you can carry on your personinto the general areas of an airport such as ticketing or the baggage area just not into the secure areas past the security check point.
Sure it would be different.....it may be legal but I would almost bet money that you would be, at the very least, questioned and maybe even arrested.

I just wonder how big of a headache the incorrect statements on the back of the permit could cause.
Just guessing but, I think you'd have to show proof that the statements are incorrect or be arrested.

For example in#2. Youhave a Leo interactionin a state that recognizes your Al. permit but the officer reads the part on the back that says "valid for the state of Alabama only" & assumes you are carrying illegally in his statebecause the back of the permit says Al. only.
See above...proof of reciprocity.

Or #4. Your coming out of Olive Garden in Al. & get attacked by4 men & have to pull your firearm the waitress sees what happens & calls Leo. Leo shows up & sees that the back of the PL says you cannot carry any place that serves alcohol & Olive Garden serves alcohol.What does he do then? According the the PL your in violation & your Pl is void.
Proof again......this "proof" is what we in Alabama need to find, have and show to every LEO that we come in contact with......in the correct "tone" of course.

Just a couple of thoughts...............................................................DF1

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

That's the problem. Having proof is not always enough. Some leos in Va. have already shown that they do not care to look at the information that is provide by a citizen. I think it was the incident with the Tony 7 that the police said flat out that they did not want to see the "literature" that someone tried to give them. Having proof in your pocket is no help if they dont' believe it or even look at it...................................................................................DF1

Valid point...as kurtmax said, it may well take a lawsuit...or 10

Kingfish · Aug 27, 2007

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DeerForce1 wrote:

We were talking about firearms at work the other day & i found out that 1 of the guys working for me has a CHP. We werecompairing permits & i read some suprising things on the back of his permit. I made a copy of it.

Where county is his permit from and where is yours from?

DeerForce1 · Aug 27, 2007

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Hisis from Ashville, Alabama. I'm from Va. & just working in Alabama for a while & have only been here a few months so i'm not sure what county he's in. It's between Anniston & Birmingham.

My home state CHP is from Va. although i do have 3 others..........................................................................DF1

DeerForce1 · Aug 28, 2007

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I found out today he lives in St. Clair county.............................................DF1

vmathis12019 · Sep 28, 2007

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the back of mine (Covington County) has this to say:

This DOES NOT permit you to carry a gun openly as an officer. This permit is void if holder is under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Federal laws regulate possession of firearms in certain areas of air terminals. (and my favorite...what a joke) If you have any questions please feel free to contact this office at (lists phone number).

Signature of Licensee

My Signature here.

I think they put the no OC on there, because the permit changes from county to county, and the Sheriff's apparently tend to honestly believe that having that permit restricts you ONLY to concealed carry. I think the implication here is that without the permit, you haveno legal rights involving carrying a firearm. This is, of course, nonsense, but this nonsense can get you arrested as I found out in May (if you haven't read it yet, the Man Arrested for Open Carry thread under this state).

Kingfish · Sep 28, 2007

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Wait...That is it? No silly restrictions on places where alcohol is served, public parks, banks, no BS about no school carry? WOW, your Sheriff is a stand up guy compared to others.

He just needs a LITTLE education and you would be good to go.

kurtmax_0 · Sep 29, 2007

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Just don't OC as an officer. Use a hip rig or something

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