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Thread: D.C. Wants Supreme Court to Hear Gun Ban

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    WASHINGTON (AP) - The D.C government will petition the Supreme Court to hear its appeal of the federal circuit court's decision to overturn the city's 30-year-old handgun ban.
    http://www.wtop.com/?nid=596&sid=1190227

    Well, here we go...

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    They may not hear the case. SCOTUS has been very reluctant to involve themselves in the 2nd Amendment and I don't think they want to start now. I think that they'll just let the lower court ruling stand.

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    The current legal season is pretty much done, so the soonest they'd grant certiorari for this would probably be next year, if ever. Don't hold your breath, antis.

    -ljp

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    How typical, they give one, 2 sentence paragraph for the People and the rest of the article is all about D.C.'s side of the argument. What hosers. But what did I expect from these socialists?

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    DoubleR wrote:

    Well, here we go...
    Yep. Fasten your seatbelts. Ought to be an interesting ride.

    I see no reason why SCOTUS won't take the case. Time to interpret the commas!



    Also, from the linked article, this gets my vote for Weirdest logic of the week!:

    D.C. officials say the gun ban is needed in a city that has been plagued by high homicide rates. Police Chief Cathy Lanier said 75 of the city's 97 homicides this year were committed with firearms.

    Howcan Lanier say such an illogical and idiotic statement such as that?

    Our education system has failed us...

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    HankT wrote:
    DoubleR wrote:

    Well, here we go...
    Yep. Fasten your seatbelts. Ought to be an interesting ride.

    I see no reason why SCOTUS won't take the case. Time to interpret the commas!



    Also, from the linked article, this gets my vote for Weirdest logic of the week!:

    D.C. officials say the gun ban is needed in a city that has been plagued by high homicide rates. Police Chief Cathy Lanier said 75 of the city's 97 homicides this year were committed with firearms.

    Howcan Lanier say such an illogical and idiotic statement such as that?

    Our education system has failed us...
    Assuming that

    A) SCOTUS accepts the case & rules favorably for the rights of homeowners

    or

    B) SCOTUS lets the current ruling stand

    Doesn't this create a domino effect for New York & Chicago? If it becomes legal to keep a handgun in the home in DC, under what grounds could Chicago & New York keep up the ruse?

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    For those of you that think the SCOTUS may not take the case, there is one major difference in this appeal. Before, every appeal has been brought by the individual seeking relief (of one sort or another). This time, the appeal is from another Federal Government agency (City of D.C. - a wholly federal agency, legislatively speaking). That. makes a huge difference in whether or not the SCOTUS will grant cert.

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    psmartin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    DoubleR wrote:

    Well, here we go...
    Yep. Fasten your seatbelts. Ought to be an interesting ride.

    I see no reason why SCOTUS won't take the case. Time to interpret the commas!



    Also, from the linked article, this gets my vote for Weirdest logic of the week!:

    D.C. officials say the gun ban is needed in a city that has been plagued by high homicide rates. Police Chief Cathy Lanier said 75 of the city's 97 homicides this year were committed with firearms.

    Howcan Lanier say such an illogical and idiotic statement such as that?

    Our education system has failed us...
    Assuming that

    A) SCOTUS accepts the case & rules favorably for the rights of homeowners

    or

    B) SCOTUS lets the current ruling stand

    Doesn't this create a domino effect for New York & Chicago? If it becomes legal to keep a handgun in the home in DC, under what grounds could Chicago & New York keep up the ruse?
    I think you're right. My understanding is that the important issue the DC appellate court decision is the nature of the right to keep and bear arms--the DC court said it's individual.

    However, the (only?) alternative interpretation is that the right is collective in nature. If SCOTUS rules on the individual/collective issue, and I don't think it's avoidable if it takes the case, then the most important decision in the history of the RKBA is in the offing.

    I've heard som very smart pro-gun/rights law experts opine that the right is probably collective, not individual. My sense is that if it is decided that way, that it would be a major setback for gun rights.A lot is on the line if SCOTUS takes the case. It will be exciting.

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    It being mid-July, I'll just reach back to a post put together in Marchand avoid having to strain the brain bythinking too deeply now that the weather is warm:

    Mike wrote:
    apjonas wrote:
    Why is this case "the most significant"? Most other circuits have ruled the other way. I think the 5th is the only other "individual right" circuit. Unless and until the Supreme Court accepts this notion, most of the country is still out in the cold.
    "Significance" lies in the striking down of a law under ind. rights reading of 2A, somthing not done in Emerson.

    Yes: for this reason this is very significant decision& probably the most significant yet on 2A.But that is only ifthe Supreme Court ultimately accepts cert.

    By Judge Henderson's count, 9 other federal circuits have a different view of 2A.

    The safe money is always betting against cert given that there is less than a 1 in 100 chance that the SCOTUSwill review any case.

    Here, though --for numerous reasons --I agree with the MSM: this is one thatis likely togoall the way.

    But Parker still allows for "reasonable" regulation of firearms. The reason that the DC law was struck down -- and that the case was such a good vehicle for 2A--wasthat the gun ban itself was an extremely strictgun prohibition. The Court telegraphs in dicta that itwould not consider a lot of othergunlegislation (such as concealed carry and certain open carry restrictions) as inherently "unreasonable" and therefore a violation of 2A. It doesn't describeany objective standard for distinguishing "reasonable" from "unreasonable" gun restrictions.

    The 5th Cir. in Emersonused a balancing test for judging constitutionality under 2A: but not the same "strict scrutiny" Courts use to evaluate restictions of First Amendment freedoms ie: "is the restriction necessary to serve a compelling state interest?"

    If the Supreme Court takes thiscase up, they are likely to affirm the Circuit Court in Parker.

    If the Supreme Court affirms Parker, there will be a rush to the Courts to challenge a whole lot of other gun control legislation as "unreasonable."

    But veryfew courts, if any,are ultimately going apply "strict scrutiny" to questions of what kinds of gun control are constitutional. And I don't think that we can take it for granted that the Courts are going to agree with many readers here as to what kind of gun regualtion is "reasonable."

    Parker may be the end of some of the stupidist and most annoying formsof gun regulation -- like the DC gun ban.But other gun laws will stand. Parker will not result in universal open carry, for example.

    The most important fights over gun rights will remain where they always have been: in Congress and state legislatures.

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    The Donkster wrote:
    If the Supreme Court takes thisÂ*case up, they are likely to affirm the Circuit Court in Parker.

    If the Supreme Court affirms Parker, there will be a rush to the Courts to challenge a whole lot of other gun control legislation as "unreasonable."

    Parker may be the end of some of the stupidist and most annoying formsÂ*of gun regulation -- like the DC gun ban.Â*Â*But other gun laws will stand. Parker will not result in universal open carry, for example.

    The most important fights over gun rights will remain where they always have been: in Congress and state legislatures.
    I think The Donkster's assessment of the outcome is very likely. SCOTUS will, in my non-lawyer opinion, simply assert that a blanket prohibition on handguns is not legal. This then sets up further legal action to define the boundaries of what is/is not illegal.

    I'm very curious to see if the court weighs in on the part of the DC gun ban that requires all long guns to be registered in order to be legally posessed. I think this part of the law is at least as important as the part banning handguns outright and could have far-reaching implications depending on the ruling.

    A_Deuce

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    A_Deuce wrote:
    The Donkster wrote:
    If the Supreme Court takes thiscase up, they are likely to affirm the Circuit Court in Parker.

    If the Supreme Court affirms Parker, there will be a rush to the Courts to challenge a whole lot of other gun control legislation as "unreasonable."

    Parker may be the end of some of the stupidist and most annoying formsof gun regulation -- like the DC gun ban.But other gun laws will stand. Parker will not result in universal open carry, for example.

    The most important fights over gun rights will remain where they always have been: in Congress and state legislatures.
    I think The Donkster's assessment of the outcome is very likely. SCOTUS will, in my non-lawyer opinion, simply assert that a blanket prohibition on handguns is not legal. This then sets up further legal action to define the boundaries of what is/is not illegal.

    I'm very curious to see if the court weighs in on the part of the DC gun ban that requires all long guns to be registered in order to be legally posessed. I think this part of the law is at least as important as the part banning handguns outright and could have far-reaching implications depending on the ruling.

    A_Deuce
    If I'm not mistaken (and I may be, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) I believe Fenty has said something to the effectthat if the lower courts decision stood, then he would just go ahead and do what New York has done, and try topush locallegislation that would attempt to create tougher local laws andcreate moreof aburden on the common citizens. I specifically remember something being said in the comparison of those issues between DC and New York, I just unfortunately can't remember where.

    Another thing, from everything I've seen floating around this it seems to me that it really does all, in essence, boil down to whether 2A is a collective right or an individual right. If the SCOTUS does take the case and determines it to be an individual right, what kind of impact do you all think it will have on the country? Obviously the anti-agenda will kick into full gear and start a retaliation, but what effect could this have on things like national reciprocity and such?

    Me, personally, I have a strong feeling that SCOTUS will indeed take the case, just because of the magnitude of the issue. This will be the first time in what, 70 some odd years that they will have taken a case specifically concerning 2A? I think with everything going on with VT, Columbine, the Amish school, and then the weight that's being thrown around Congress and New York, and thenBloomie stating it will be one of his top issues if/when he runs forpresidentand all of that stuff, it's basically got a lot of weight to it.

    I don't know, just my 2 cents. Obviously I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I'm just curious as to what you all think could happen here, on a more specific level. Thanks for your replys, in advance. Let's hope this goes the way we all would like it to.

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    The high court already helping out DC with an extention on time to file its appeal.
    Posted on SCOTUSBLOG

    Wednesday, July 18, 2007 UPDATE: City gets delay to file gun appeal Posted by Lyle Denniston at 10:25 PM
    UPDATE Thursday a.m.
    Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., on Wednesday gave the District of Columbia government an extension of time until Sept. 5 to file its appeal challenging an individual rights interpretation of the Second Amendment by the D.C. Circuit Court. The opposition to the request for an extension was not received at the Court, at least not before the Chief Justice acted, it is understood.
    Washington, D.C., residents who oppose the city's strict handgun control law urged the Supreme Court on Wednesday to move along, without delay, the city government's appeal of a federal appeals court striking down that law under the Second Amendment. Invoking the half-century old admonitions of the late Justice Felix Frankfurter, the local citizens told the Court that it should not be difficult for city lawyers to promptly prepare their petition for review. The document can be found here.
    The challengers to the local law told the Court that they"look forward" to supporting Supreme Court review of the case, but argued that the city's appeal papers should be filed, as now scheduled, "no later than Aug. 6."
    The city on Monday asked Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., for a 30-day extension of the time to file the city's petition in the case of District of Columbia, et al., v. Heller, et al. (extension application 07A51). The city argued that it had taken on additional attorneys who needed to become familiar with the issues, and that city officials had only recently decide actually to appeal the case.
    Quoting a 1957 order of the Court (Brody v. U.S.), the local gun owners said Justice Frankfurter had remarked: "I cannot emphasize too strongly that petitions for certiorari all too frequently misconceive the true nature of such petitions -- the considerations governing review on certiorari -- and the manner of presenting them. It does not require heavy research to charge the understanding of this Court adequately on the gravity of the issue on which review is sought and to prove to the Court the appropriateness of granting a petition for writ of certiorari."
    In their filing, the local residents said that the city had stretched out the time for considering the case in lower courts, and argued that the city has had "five months to ponder an unopposed certiorari petition on a single question of law." That, they said, "should sufficient....Petitioners should conform their litigation plans to the Court's rules, and not the other way around."


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    Well, the question now is... What can we do to help?
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    Well, the question now is... What can we do to help?
    Jeff Knox spoke last night at the VCDL meeting. You can check out his site at www.firearmscoalition.org for discussions of this.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Oh Yeah, the DC gun ban is really working...

    http://www.newschannel8.net/news/sto...07/440966.html

    11 Wounded in Six D.C. Shootings Overnight
    "Washington - class=StoryTextD.C. Police are reviewing surveillance video as they look into six shooting incidents overnight Thursday into Friday that wounded 11 people."

    How can this happen when guns are illegal in DC?

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    Disgruntled tourists?

    -ljp

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    DoubleR wrote:
    Oh Yeah, the DC gun ban is really working...

    http://www.newschannel8.net/news/sto...07/440966.html

    11 Wounded in Six D.C. Shootings Overnight
    "Washington - class=StoryTextD.C. Police are reviewing surveillance video as they look into six shooting incidents overnight Thursday into Friday that wounded 11 people."

    How can this happen when guns are illegal in DC?
    After everything that's been going on, you don't know how it could happen :what:!!?? Come on, you know it's all Virginia's fault! Especially with the gun show loophole and all

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    darrel_h wrote:
    DoubleR wrote:
    Oh Yeah, the DC gun ban is really working...

    http://www.newschannel8.net/news/sto...07/440966.html

    11 Wounded in Six D.C. Shootings Overnight
    "Washington - class=StoryTextD.C. Police are reviewing surveillance video as they look into six shooting incidents overnight Thursday into Friday that wounded 11 people."

    How can this happen when guns are illegal in DC?
    After everything that's been going on, you don't know how it could happen :what:!!?? Come on, you know it's all Virginia's fault! Especially with the gun show loophole and all

    DC's loophole is that criminals are exempt.


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    HankT wrote:
    I've heard som very smart pro-gun/rights law experts opine that the right is probably collective, not individual. My sense is that if it is decided that way, that it would be a major setback for gun rights.A lot is on the line if SCOTUS takes the case. It will be exciting.
    ??? What the...?!

    Please, please, with all due respect...provide some references to these pro-gun/rights law experts. Anyone claiming to be a pro-gun/rights individual and yet still believing/proclaiming/advertising the 2nd Amendment is a collective right must have both an NRA membership and makes donations to the Brady's.

    An incredible lot is on the line here...SCOTUS sets precedents that have the pebble in the pond (ripple) affect which then State reps can use to propose bills which can go very badly, very quickly. Anyone want to live in a State with laws that mirror Washington, D.C.? The timing of thiscannot bea coincidence...with the leading country in the free world so near to electing a new President...

    I apologize ahead of time if this is a bit terse, but I’ve lived in an oppressive State for far too long not to realize what can possibly happen to everyone…including those living in States that now enjoy so much “freedom” (read: rights not being trampled by the few in State Houses deciding what’s best for everyone).

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    Seriously, someone needs to investigate the DC police, these cops shooting people are out of hand. (Since, remember, only cops can have guns in DC...)

    And Echo, ignore anything Hank says. 80+% of the time, it's trolling. Or at least borderline.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    Seriously, someone needs to investigate the DC police, these cops shooting people are out of hand. (Since, remember, only cops can have guns in DC...)

    And Echo, ignore anything Hank says. 80+% of the time, it's trolling. Or at least borderline.
    AbNo...I don't know you from Adam, but we may be related somehow...at least through brain waves. Every time I see yet another story of a shooting in either D.C. or Maryland, I say, "Oh my God, it must have been a cop. Everyone knows that no one else is allowed to carry guns besides cops." I crap you not, you can ask my wife...I'm sure she's more than sick of hearing me say it time and again...one day she's gonna stop watching the news with me! Heck, one day I should stop watching the freaking news! I have a couple LEO friends that are "drinking buddies" and they would tell you the same thing. They must either believe me (kidding), or just like me just enough and think I'm crazy as neither have bothered to shoot me yet ...yet...

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    psmartin wrote:
    Assuming that

    A) SCOTUS accepts the case & rules favorably for the rights of homeowners

    or

    B) SCOTUS lets the current ruling stand

    Doesn't this create a domino effect for New York & Chicago? If it becomes legal to keep a handgun in the home in DC, under what grounds could Chicago & New York keep up the ruse?
    It does because of the individual right precedent that it would set, especially if "A" becomes true. However, it will probably not immediately invalidate any state laws, i.e. NY or Chicago, for many different reasons.

    First, the 2nd Amendment is one of the few Bill of Rights that has not been incorporated to apply to the states. And because DC is a federal district, the question of if the 2A should apply to the states or not, is not before the Court in Parker. However, if we are lucky the Court may imply that they would be willing to incorporate the 2A to apply to the states through future cases.

    Second, Parker is a very narrow case, focusing mainly on the issue of being able to possess a readily accessible, functioning firearm, within one's home, for the purpose of self-defense. This means that broader gun-control laws will probably not be addressed in Parker (i.e. concealed carry, open carry, transportation, purchase, etc.).

    In all reality if Parker is affirmed by the Court, it will have almost no immediate impact on the vast majority of gun control laws. However, it will have a devastating long term effect on the gun control movement as a whole. And with future court cases and future legislation in light of Parker, we might be able to get a glimpse of what "Shall not be infringed" really means!

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    BTW, The Donkster and A_Deuce, welcome to OCDO! Both of yall should hang out here more often, it looks like you have some useful insight that we could all benefit from.

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    echo6tango wrote:
    AbNo...I don't know you from Adam, but we may be related somehow...at least through brain waves. Every time I see yet another story of a shooting in either D.C. or Maryland, I say, "Oh my God, it must have been a cop. Everyone knows that no one else is allowed to carry guns besides cops."
    Eh, actually, I saw it a couple of weeks ago or so around here (I forget who posted it originally), and it was just kind of a :shock: moment. It all made sense!

    Citizens + DC = No Guns

    Cops + DC = Guns

    Citizens - Guns + DC = No Shootings

    Guns = Shootings

    Therefore

    Citizens + DC â‰* Shootings

    Which leads us to....

    Cops + DC = Shootings

    I knew those math classes I took last semester would pay off! :celebrate
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    AbNo wrote:
    echo6tango wrote:
    AbNo...I don't know you from Adam, but we may be related somehow...at least through brain waves. Every time I see yet another story of a shooting in either D.C. or Maryland, I say, "Oh my God, it must have been a cop. Everyone knows that no one else is allowed to carry guns besides cops."
    Eh, actually, I saw it a couple of weeks ago or so around here (I forget who posted it originally), and it was just kind of a :shock: moment. It all made sense!

    Citizens + DC = No Guns

    Cops + DC = Guns

    Citizens - Guns + DC = No Shootings

    Guns = Shootings

    Therefore

    Citizens + DC â‰* Shootings

    Which leads us to....

    Cops + DC = Shootings

    I knew those math classes I took last semester would pay off! :celebrate
    I am certain that the school would cancel the course if they had any idea that is what you were learning, and how you were applying it.

    Regards
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