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Thread: Madison County Fair - No Firearms

  1. #1
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    Went to the Fair in Madison last night. Checked the area out in the morning for no firearms sign. There was no sign posted.

    I get there with wife and friends and a sign is up " No Weapons " along with other No No's.

    So -- We/I did not carry on the grounds.

    Is this legit??? I thought town and county property could not post no weapon signs because of preemption????

    DC



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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Depends on where it's held. Some fairs are actually held on private property. Then, even if it is sponsored by a government entity, the property owner can ban weapons.

    However, if it were public property and public entity, pre-emption holds, per my understanding.

    Not in a position right now to check the actual statutes. Would also have to know who sponsors the fair (for example, if it's a non-governmental board) and whether they just lease the property.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Looked to me like we were on private property. I don't know how it is in VA, but I remember most fairground locations being private property. Funny thing though is that one of the last gun shows I went to in PA was in a fairground..

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    Tess wrote:
    Depends on where it's held. Some fairs are actually held on private property. Then, even if it is sponsored by a government entity, the property owner can ban weapons.

    However, if it were public property and public entity, pre-emption holds, per my understanding.

    Not in a position right now to check the actual statutes. Would also have to know who sponsors the fair (for example, if it's a non-governmental board) and whether they just lease the property.
    It's never easy is it?

    DC

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    Tess wrote:
    Depends on where it's held. Some fairs are actually held on private property. Then, even if it is sponsored by a government entity, the property owner can ban weapons.

    However, if it were public property and public entity, pre-emption holds, per my understanding.

    Not in a position right now to check the actual statutes. Would also have to know who sponsors the fair (for example, if it's a non-governmental board) and whether they just lease the property.
    It's never easy is it?

    DC
    Mainly because too often we're reacting after the fact, rather than the other way around. Once we, as individuals, get all studied up on the relevant law and so forth, we'll be able to check on stuff easily, even in advance.

    For example, what if the OP already knew the law, and whether the property was private, and whether the sponsor was a gov't agency before he went to the fair? If he knew in advance whether he was on solid ground, he could just waltz in and handle any challenges to his presence accordingly.

    "Yes, Officer. Your name, sir? Would you please speak up for the voice-recorder?" "Now what seems to be the problem with OC'ing on public property in a state where the legislature abolished all local gun lawsthree ago?"
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Hard toimagine ANYTHING in Madison having a no firearm's posting.....

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    chesire17201 wrote:
    Hard toimagine ANYTHING in Madison having a no firearm's posting.....
    I titled this "Madison County Fair "No Firearms" But, the sign said "no weapons"

    So the Tit;e should be Madison County Fair - "No Weapons"

    DC

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    No problems with your title DC, just thinking, Madison, of all palces....:shock:unless it's changed that much, i grew up in brandy, culpeper area, and have tons of family in the area, lot's in madison and have always known the area to be fairly gun friendly......course it's been 3 yers since i was last down........

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    DeadCenter wrote:
    Went to the Fair in Madison last night. Checked the area out in the morning for no firearms sign. There was no sign posted.

    I get there with wife and friends and a sign is up " No Weapons " along with other No No's.

    So -- We/I did not carry on the grounds.

    Is this legit??? I thought town and county property could not post no weapon signs because of preemption????

    DC

    The Fair is like many others.... it is operated by an outside company. Theyrent the space from the county and therefore are entitled to set rules for entry even if it is on public property.

    Keep in mind... you probably have to pay to get in and then pay to enjoy the rides. This is a easy indicator that they haves rules you will need to abide by.

    Never heard anyFair banning firearms. Very odd.




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    Not to gratuitously flog a thread that I started, but read this: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/3369-1.html

    This is not a settled issue. The same question applies to us both: When a private entity rents public property, does the lessee bring along their own private property rights or do only the rights of the property owner confer?

    Somehow, gmail managed to not actually transmit my FOIA to Roanoke when I sent it on the 6th - waited until the 14th according to the 'sent items' folder - very strange. Anyway, that means that I expect a response of some sort Monday, 23rd.

    I think what I want out of this is a Commonwealth Atty., city manager, or some like person to ask the Va. AG for an official opinion. I want someone to go on record.

    Again, DC and I are in the same boat - have you called the county to get a copy of the lease? I bet it says the same as the one in Roanoke.

    That LEO thinks we are wrong encourages me

    C.

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    The Fair is like many others.... it is operated by an outside company. They rent the space from the county and therefore are entitled to set rules for entry even if it is on public property.

    Keep in mind... you probably have to pay to get in and then pay to enjoy the rides. This is a easy indicator that they haves rules you will need to abide by.
    "It is not conceivable that a city can provide the ways and means for a private individual or corporation to discriminate against its own citizens...The Judgment of this court is not rendered without the full realization of the impact of this decision on the State Park system in Virginia. The future course rests in the hands of the elected and appointed representatives of the Commonwealth. This opinion follows the law as set forth in all decided cases touching on the subject matter, and it is rather significant that no legal authority has been cited by the defendants to justify any other conclusion. The contention that a normal lessor-lessee relationship should be permitted in leases of public property must give way to the constitutional rights of the citizens as a whole.

    A decree will be entered in the form of a declaratory judgement stating the Plaintiff's rights to use and enjoy the facilities at Seashore State Park have been violated under the Constitution of the United States, and a permanent federal injunction will be granted..." Tate v. Department of Conservation and Development 133 F. Supp. 53 (1955).

    The Department of Conservation and Development is now known as the Virginia Department of Conservation and Recreation who run and maintain state parks. I guess they decided to change their name after the cited case.

    ยง 1-248. Supremacy of federal and state law.

    The Constitution and laws of the United States and of the Commonwealth shall be supreme. Any ordinance, resolution, bylaw, rule, regulation, or order of any governing body or any corporation, board, or number of persons shall not be inconsistent with the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the Commonwealth.

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    HOT DAMN, THANK YOU... this is pretty much what I have been looking for.

    I am actually up past my bedtime because of a VCDL alert that just came out ... same issue, in Norfolk, they arrested the guy.

    Thanks again,

    C.

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    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    The Fair is like many others.... it is operated by an outside company. They rent the space from the county and therefore are entitled to set rules for entry even if it is on public property.

    Keep in mind... you probably have to pay to get in and then pay to enjoy the rides. This is a easy indicator that they haves rules you will need to abide by.
    "It is not conceivable that a city can provide the ways and means for a private individual or corporation to discriminate against its own citizens...The Judgment of this court is not rendered without the full realization of the impact of this decision on the State Park system in Virginia...
    Your point isn't clear to me - you disagree with LEO229?

    IOW what you are saying is that regardless of who is "operating" the property at the time, if it is public property, firearms cannot be prohibited?

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    My rationale is this...

    You lease a space from a large shopping mall. The mall allows all the shoppers to enter carrying firearms as there is no rule for it or against it.

    You post a sign inside that states... "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED! Your "Paying" for the spaceso unless your lease agreement says otherwise... your entitled to makes rules over that space. You would not be able to "allow" items that are prohibited by the mall but you could ban them in your space.

    So my point being... If you rent a parcel of county property... that citizens would normally be allows to walk all over it armed.... Once you set up shop... the citizens cannot just walk all over it anymore.

    Think of it this way... They charge an entry fee to get in. Do you get to just walk in for free because your a citizen of the county? Their rule is everyone will pay to enter so the answer would be NO. You have to pay like everyone else even if you pay taxes to the county.

    What if your acting up and they want you to leave? Do you get to staybecause your a tax paying citizen? Nope...You will have to leave or LEO will give you a ticket.

    At that moment, you have absolutely no rights to that parcel of county propertyexcept as a customer.

    Obviously, this is my opinion and the county may have drafted someone different in the lease with restrictions on what can be done. But I highly doubt it.


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    LEO 229 wrote:
    My rational is this...

    You lease a space from a large shopping mall. The mall allows all the shoppers to enter carrying firearms as there is no rule for it or against it...
    The mall is private property, as opposed to what I was asking about, which is public propertytemporarily controlled by a private entity.

    I don't know VA's laws hardly at all, so I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just asking a question. I do know however that some states disallow private entities from restricting CC/OCers (for example) on public property they are renting/using/temporarily controlling - so I wonder if VA is the same way.

    Utah comes to mind as one state which disallows such restrictions on PUBLIC property.

    BTW - the word you were looking for is "rationale".

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    BB62 wrote:
    Virginiaplanter wrote:
    The Fair is like many others.... it is operated by an outside company. They rent the space from the county and therefore are entitled to set rules for entry even if it is on public property.

    Keep in mind... you probably have to pay to get in and then pay to enjoy the rides. This is a easy indicator that they haves rules you will need to abide by.
    "It is not conceivable that a city can provide the ways and means for a private individual or corporation to discriminate against its own citizens...The Judgment of this court is not rendered without the full realization of the impact of this decision on the State Park system in Virginia...
    Your point isn't clear to me - you disagree with LEO229?

    IOW what you are saying is that regardless of who is "operating" the property at the time, if it is public property, firearms cannot be prohibited?
    I see where he is going but....

    The difference here is the space is being rented by an private business. The event is not being worked by the county and their only connection is the land itself.

    There are certain rights given to you when you lease a space. You do not own it but you do get to establish guidelines pertaining to what happens inside.

    It is not discrimination at all. Race, Age, Gender, Ethnic origin, or being disabled would be something you can discriminate against.

    Because you haveno shirt, no shoes, ananimal,or have a weapon is something any business can prohibit. You are also prohibited from having a weapon in the county courthouse too... Is that discrimination?

    In Vermont you can walk around nude.. Seriously... If you want to go to Burger King nude... should you be allowed in? All the stores have the sign"Shirt and Shoes Required." Maybe Vermont BKs have one that adds... "Pants Required"....

    How can that private business do this if the state allows it?? Because they can.

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    BB62 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    My rational is this...

    You lease a space from a large shopping mall. The mall allows all the shoppers to enter carrying firearms as there is no rule for it or against it...
    The mall is private property, as opposed to what I was asking about, which is public propertytemporarily controlled by a private entity.

    I don't know VA's laws hardly at all, so I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just asking a question. I do know however that some states disallow private entities from restricting CC/OCers (for example) on public property they are renting/using/temporarily controlling - so I wonder if VA is the same way.

    Utah comes to mind as one state which disallows such restrictions on PUBLIC property.

    BTW - the word you were looking for is "rationale".

    I was aware it was private property.. but that was the best I could come up with to make the thing fit. :P

    Think of it this way... The county wants the cash and will happily rent that space out to the fair every summer. Does the county really care if a few customers get turned away because they are armed? Hell no!! They got paid already.

    It should matter to the business but... maybe their insurance policy prohibits the use or carry of firearms on the event property due to the liability involved. If this was the case.. I am sure the county will allow the fair to ban weapons as necessary.

    Another good point.... If you trip and fall cracking your knee cap.... Do you sue the fair or the county? The county will wash their hands since the control of the space was leased out to a insured business.


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    BB62 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    My rational is this...
    BTW - the word you were looking for is "rationale".
    And, from other posts, 'you're' vice 'your' as the contraction of 'you are.'

    Interestingly, 'bias' is listed as synonym for 'rationale.'

    Quibbles, true, but first impressions extend beyond the badge. So much to read and so little time. I note that command staff at the PD where I was 'trained' (a trained 'civilian' citizen?) had graduate/postgraduate degrees.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    BB62 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    My rational is this...
    BTW - the word you were looking for is "rationale".
    And, from other posts, 'you're' vice 'your' as the contraction of 'you are.'

    Interestingly, 'bias' is listed as synonym for 'rationale.'

    Quibbles, true, but first impressions extend beyond the badge. So much to read and so little time. I note that command staff at the PD where I was 'trained' (a trained 'civilian' citizen?) had graduate/postgraduate degrees.
    Good thing I do not work for the Washington Times as an editor. I am a product of the American education system.

    Thank you for pointing out my flaws... I am sure they mean I suck at my job too.

    I can only dream to be absolutely perfect and be flawless someday.

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    I'm not trying to bust anybody's chops here, by saying this, but I'm just going to offer my unbiased opinion on the grammatical error comments.

    I grew up in a household where my parents were sticklers for grammar and spelling. I grew up with that instilled in my mind, and I used to come onto the internet and get on peoples' cases about itmyself. Hell, on the forum I adminstrate, I'm lovingly referred to as "The Grammar Nazi". A label that was given to me that I affectionately embraced.

    BUT, something I've noticed that a lot of people do that I have since grown out of doing in my time on the internet. When people get into heated debates/arguments or in general dislike someone they're conferring with on an internet board, they begin pointing out grammatical errors and spelling in what I view as a desperate attempt to try to keep their head above water or demean their 'opponent'.

    In short, if you begin focusing more on spelling and grammar in an internet post than an intelligent and civil rebuttal to it, then you've already lost and are only showing desperation.

    I've grown lazy lately and have begun letting my spelling/grammar/etc begin to slip. Most people are trying to type in a hurry nowadays.

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    Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

    Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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    BB62 wrote
    IOW what you are saying is that regardless of who is "operating" the property at the time, if it is public property, firearms cannot be prohibited?
    Yes exactly. Like any other civil right, RKBA may not be infringed on public land without due process. Va. state law has said that there are no local laws (preemption) and state law declines to prohibit carry in parks. QED, carry on.

    Think of it like this. The local KKK chapter decides to rent the park. City has to let them rent it, but does not, may not, allow them to set rules for who can attend (charged admission or not) based on race.

    The, "I rented it so I can do as I want as if I owned it," reasoning is apparently done in by "Tate vs. Department of Conservation...". There is probably more to this, but I am psyched. If LEO ever tries to keep me out of a park for carrying I can ask if he really wants to have a conversation with the FBI about a 'color of law' violation of my civil rights (sorry dude, you just make an irresistable target).

    I could still be wrong about all this. Time to hit the Yellow Pages and find a civil rights atty. I bet the suit in Norfolk will clarify this greatly.

    C.



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    My spelling and grammar SUCKS!!!! It has since the 5th grade when I got an E on every report card. Did the teacher care? Nope... Passed me anyway. Ladies and Gentlemen... I was educated in the United States of America and graduated.

    Do I enjoy making grammatical mistakes? Of course not. But I have made them for 30 years and it is a hard habit to break. Do I know words I cannot spell?Most of the time. Am I leaning the correct way? Sure I am.

    Now... In some of my replies... Iquotedmembers here that had also spelled words wrong asidentified in the spell check process.I understand what they are saying and it means nothing in regards to the topic of the conversation. I do not recall anyone pointing out those mistakes.

    With all the responding I do here and a few other boards on line.... I do not have the luxury of time to proof read everything I type to make sure it is absolutely perfect. This is not for money so I am not going to be placing that much of an importance on it.

    If you feel it is that important to inform someone they have made a mistake... how about sending them a PM instead of pointing it out for the entire world to see. Give them a chance to make the change discreetly. Unless your intent it to make it known and criticize them.

    I am human... except for for what I am.

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    Now, Now Kid's -- Play Nice

    DC

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    kaiheitai17 wrote:
    Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

    Please correct me if I am mistaken.
    You mentioned that he CITY and the company tried to ban firearms. The City obviously cannot do that.

    In this situation... as I understand it... the company alone has set a policy for entry where firearms are not permitted. How can they charge admission if it is county property? You should be allowed to enter free of charge and walk around.

    I am not saying I know the laws here... But to me.. the business renting the space would have the right to do it. They may betrying to promote a safe environment.


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