Madison County Fair - No Firearms

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Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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BB62 wrote

IOW what you are saying is that regardless of who is "operating" the property at the time, if it is public property, firearms cannot be prohibited?

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Yes exactly. Like any other civil right, RKBA may not be infringed on public land without due process. Va. state law has said that there are no local laws (preemption) and state law declines to prohibit carry in parks. QED, carry on.

Think of it like this. The local KKK chapter decides to rent the park. City has to let them rent it, but does not, may not, allow them to set rules for who can attend (charged admission or not) based on race.

The, "I rented it so I can do as I want as if I owned it," reasoning is apparently done in by "Tate vs. Department of Conservation...". There is probably more to this, but I am psyched. If LEO ever tries to keep me out of a park for carrying I can ask if he really wants to have a conversation with the FBI about a 'color of law' violation of my civil rights (sorry dude, you just make an irresistable target).

I could still be wrong about all this. Time to hit the Yellow Pages and find a civil rights atty. I bet the suit in Norfolk will clarify this greatly.

C.

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My spelling and grammar SUCKS!!!! It has since the 5th grade when I got an E on every report card. Did the teacher care? Nope... Passed me anyway. Ladies and Gentlemen... I was educated in the United States of America and graduated.

Do I enjoy making grammatical mistakes? Of course not. But I have made them for 30 years and it is a hard habit to break. Do I know words I cannot spell?Most of the time. Am I leaning the correct way? Sure I am.

Now... In some of my replies... Iquotedmembers here that had also spelled words wrong asidentified in the spell check process.I understand what they are saying and it means nothing in regards to the topic of the conversation. I do not recall anyone pointing out those mistakes.

With all the responding I do here and a few other boards on line.... I do not have the luxury of time to proof read everything I type to make sure it is absolutely perfect. This is not for money so I am not going to be placing that much of an importance on it.

If you feel it is that important to inform someone they have made a mistake... how about sending them a PM instead of pointing it out for the entire world to see. Give them a chance to make the change discreetly. Unless your intent it to make it known and criticize them.

I am human... except for for what I am.

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Now, Now Kid's -- Play Nice

DC

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kaiheitai17 wrote:

Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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You mentioned that he CITY and the company tried to ban firearms. The City obviously cannot do that.

In this situation... as I understand it... the company alone has set a policy for entry where firearms are not permitted. How can they charge admission if it is county property? You should be allowed to enter free of charge and walk around.

I am not saying I know the laws here... But to me.. the business renting the space would have the right to do it. They may betrying to promote a safe environment.

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kaiheitai17 wrote:

Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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I corresponded with the plantiffin that case. He is probably reading this board so I won't put words in his mouth, but as I understand it Richmond tried to ignore a FOIA stemming from the incident. That got them spanked.

Once the info was public, it turns out that there was no agreement allowing the event organizer to ban guns. No due process, no ban. I don't think there was a suit over RKBA vs. rental property rights to settle the underlying question. I don't know why and IANAL, again maybe "Tate" had already settled it. More to learn.

C.

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LEO 229 wrote:

My spelling and grammar SUCKS!!!!

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Mine too. No grief from me on this point.

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Yes...I know that this is for Madison County Fair and Specifically COUNTY FAIR, but I had the Chance to go to the State Fair with my Wife here in Salt Lake and gave the Security on site a call before and they stated that I could carry as long as I had my Permit with. No interrigation Q's, the Sec Head ( a Lady ) just talked to me very casually as if we had been talking about the weather. She was not suspicious at all.

A very good conversation

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LEO 229 wrote:

kaiheitai17 wrote:

Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Click to expand...

You mentioned that he CITY and the company tried to ban firearms. The City obviously cannot do that.

In this situation... as I understand it... the company alone has set a policy for entry where firearms are not permitted. How can they charge admission if it is county property? You should be allowed to enter free of charge and walk around.

I am not saying I know the laws here... But to me.. the business renting the space would have the right to do it. They may betrying to promote a safe environment.

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LEO 229 you are being deliberatly obtuse.Tate v. Department of Conservation and Development 133 F. Supp. 53 (1955) is perfectly clear and I know you read it. So you do know the law, it was just given to you.

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Jason Rogers wrote:

LEO 229 you are being deliberatly obtuse.Tate v. Department of Conservation and Development 133 F. Supp. 53 (1955) is perfectly clear and I know you read it. So you do know the law, it was just given to you.

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Um, What?

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LEO 229 wrote:

kaiheitai17 wrote:

Wasn't there a case in RIchmond just a few years ago, something like a city fair, where Richmond tried to contract the fair out to a private company? The city and company tried to forbid the carrying of firearms using the ruse of "the private company had the right to restrict firearms". Case was taken to court and Richmond was handed its ass? It is still public property regardless of who is running/contractingthe event.

Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Click to expand...

You mentioned that he CITY and the company tried to ban firearms. The City obviously cannot do that.

In this situation... as I understand it... the company alone has set a policy for entry where firearms are not permitted. How can they charge admission if it is county property? You should be allowed to enter free of charge and walk around.

I am not saying I know the laws here... But to me.. the business renting the space would have the right to do it. They may betrying to promote a safe environment. (my emphasis)

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Are you for real???

"Safe" environment, maybe, but not "safe environment".

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BB62 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

...In this situation... as I understand it... the company alone has set a policy for entry where firearms are not permitted...

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...They may betrying to promote a safe environment.

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Are you for real???

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No. I am as fake as they come.

What seems to be your boggle?

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CPerdue has it. It was about FOIA. The underlying issue was who gave the organizer permission to restrict firearms. Basic gist was, the event was held on public property and open to the general public.The organizer could not forbid the legal carrying of firearms. The streets of Richmond city are public streets regardless of what an organizer is doing on them. I would suspect the same for county fairgrounds, as long as it is public property, your civil rights must be respected.

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kaiheitai17 wrote:

CPerdue has it. It was about FOIA. The underlying issue was who gave the organizer permission to restrict firearms. Basic gist was, the event was held on public property and open to the general public.The organizer could not forbid the legal carrying of firearms. The streets of Richmond city are public streets regardless of what an organizer is doing on them. I would suspect the same for county fairgrounds, as long as it is public property, your civil rights must be respected.

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Those are the points that haven't yet been answered about Madison County, VA, for this post:
- Is the fairground public or private property?
- Are the organizers a public or private entity?

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LEO 229 wrote:

BB62 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

...In this situation... as I understand it... the company alone has set a policy for entry where firearms are not permitted...

Click to expand...

...They may betrying to promote a safe environment.

Click to expand...

Are you for real???

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No. I am as fake as they come.

What seems to be your boggle?

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HankT wrote:

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Notice that I edited my post to clarify its meaning. Neither you nor he noticed it.

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Maybe in situations like this it would be better to get the po's names and just LEAVE?:celebrate

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Well, that's what I did in Roanoke and it hasn't gotten me very far. It sounds like the Norfolk case is most likely not going to address the issue about priviate rules on leased public land - they have much bigger issues.

BTW, everybody who hates unloading before entering a gun show ... this is the same issue!! Public land (Salem Civic Center, others), priviate leasee (C&E gunshows) who wants to set their own extra-legal rules.

Does anybody think compiling a list of places and events where this issue comes up would be helpful in getting a firm resolution? Also, if anyone knows a civil rights atty. in or near Roanoke please send me a note.

Thanks,

C.

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Tess wrote:

Those are the points that haven't yet been answered about Madison County, VA, for this post:
- Is the fairground public or private property?
- Are the organizers a public or private entity?

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The "fairgrounds" are on county property.

The organizers are a 501C3 non profit organization.

The fair does receive money/services from the county. Virginia is one of a few states where the fairs are not directly associated with county/state government, even though they may accept somefunding from them.