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Thread: talked to an attorney today

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    I've been debating weather to OC here for a while since I have never seen anyone doing it before except an off duty LEO and I am worried about the possibility of an enducing panic charge. I wanted to be prepared in case of such thing so I went to my attorney's office today andI printed off the OSC case Lein vs. Leis, HB-347. and the Hamilton County prosecuter's office memo to all law enforcement agency's and took that info to him. He looked it over and said that OC was a bad idea and as my lawer he is advising against doing it.

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    It is not illegal - hence legal - but what a cop may say and do is not something anyone can guarantee. Self-defense is a "lawful and reasonable purpose," (with reference to the statutes cited below) and as long as you aren't threatening anyone, or brandishing, or intoxicated, you can carry anywhere that it isn't specifically prohibited. You may be threatened - or even actually charged - with disorderly conduct or inducing panic, but it won't stick here. DO NOT accept a plea deal if you are charged and it goes to trial (I'm no lawyer, but if this is all you are charged for, you can beat it). The statue is worded such that all you have to do is invoke the self-defense justification and you'll be OK (barring some activist judge).

    -ljp

    c.f. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917 (ORC 2917.11, disorderly conduct; 2917.31, inducing panic).


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    kblazk wrote:
    I've been debating weather to OC here for a while since I have never seen anyone doing it before except an off duty LEO and I am worried about the possibility of an enducing panic charge. I wanted to be prepared in case of such thing so I went to my attorney's office today andI printed off the OSC case Lein vs. Leis, HB-347. and the Hamilton County prosecuter's office memo to all law enforcement agency's and took that info to him. He looked it over and said that OC was a bad idea and as my lawer he is advising against doing it.
    The lawyer I previously used for property management issues advised that I should always go UNARMED(ie: NO CC) when collecting rent and posting pre-eviction notices in case a tenant "becomes violent" -- His reasoning was that I should always call the Police if anything turned violent. Most lawyers have NO REAL WORLD UNDERSTANDING of self-defense, although they can run circles around us in the finer points of law.

    My point is: A lawyers advice is just that.. advice, it's the most cautious, conservative answer money can buy. It may not always apply in the real world.

    Maintain proper dress, appearance and most people don't question your authority to OC -- Problem solved!


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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    What part of Ohio are you in, KBLAZK?

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    State Researcher dng's Avatar
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    I have to wonder; what is this attorney's personal view of firearms? I have afeeling this might be factoring into his advise. Either that or he doesn't want the risk of having to defend a "crazy gun carrying citizen"

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    BB62 wrote:
    What part of Ohio are you in, KBLAZK?
    rural

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    psmartin wrote:
    Maintain proper dress, appearance and most people don't question your authority to OC -- Problem solved!


    I think myself that if you are dressed neat, tucked in shirt, no wording on shirt, pants, boots that most people will assume you are off duty LEO

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    I found the following on "inducing panic"

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.31

    2917.31 Inducing panic.

    (A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:

    (1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;

    (2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;

    (3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

    (B) Division (A)(1) of this section does not apply to any person conducting an authorized fire or emergency drill.

    (C)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of inducing panic.

    (2) Except as otherwise provided in division (C)(3), (4), (5), (6), (7), (8), or (9) of this section, inducing panic is a misdemeanor of the first degree.



    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2917.11

    2917.11 Disorderly conduct.

    (A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:

    (1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;

    (2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person;

    (3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;

    (4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender;

    (5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.

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    kblazk wrote:
    I've been debating weather to OC here for a while since I have never seen anyone doing it before except an off duty LEO and I am worried about the possibility of an enducing panic charge. I wanted to be prepared in case of such thing so I went to my attorney's office today andI printed off the OSC case Lein vs. Leis, HB-347. and the Hamilton County prosecuter's office memo to all law enforcement agency's and took that info to him. He looked it over and said that OC was a bad idea and as my lawer he is advising against doing it.
    Research the law yourself and ask questions on here. There are a lot of people more versed in firearms laws on here than your real estate attorney is. As soon as you go to people asking for permission to open carry you will most likely get an answer that you won't like.

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    kblazk wrote:
    I've been debating weather to OC here for a while since I have never seen anyone doing it before except an off duty LEO and I am worried about the possibility of an enducing panic charge. I wanted to be prepared in case of such thing so I went to my attorney's office today andI printed off the OSC case Lein vs. Leis, HB-347. and the Hamilton County prosecuter's office memo to all law enforcement agency's and took that info to him. He looked it over and said that OC was a bad idea and as my lawer he is advising against doing it.
    What fields does your lawyer work in?

    Did he give you any basis for his advising against OCing? What was it?




    Regarding OCG19's comment....I wonder what the opposite of IANAL is? :P


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    I have been reading over the inducing panic and disorderly conduct and I see no way they can tie a disorderly conduct to carrying a firearm in public whatsoever.

    Now on the inducing panic if you break the law down by looking at section A you would have to cause "serious public inconvenience or alarm", so just one person calling 911 and saying theres a man with a gun minding his own business sounds like a mear suspicion. And if you did cause a "serious public inconvenience" they would have to prove (according to A.3.) that it was with reckless disregard. So how can a man with a holstered gun, not touching it and minding his own business be with reckless disregard. I see no way that this could hold up in court and the prosecuting attourney would have to prove serious public alarm with reckless disregard. I think its a closed case.

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    HankT wrote:
    Did he give you any basis for his advising against OCing? What was it?
    He gave no basis at all and mostly just shrugged it off. I think he specializes in traffic, divorce, stuff.

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    kblazk wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Did he give you any basis for his advising against OCing? What was it?
    He gave no basis at all and mostly just shrugged it off. I think he specializes in traffic, divorce, stuff.



    Geez, sounds like the legal version of the guy who goes into the doctor's office:

    Guy: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

    Dr.: Don't do that.



    Just change the problem a bit...

    Guy: Counselor, I'm worriedabout legal trouble ifI do this.

    Lawyer: Don't do that. $500, please. Pay now.







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    HankT wrote:
    Regarding OCG19's comment....I wonder what the opposite of IANAL is? :P
    You're right, Hank. I seriously doubt that anyone would quote any posts on this forum as an authority in a court of law, but here is my disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

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    HankT wrote:
    kblazk wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Did he give you any basis for his advising against OCing? What was it?
    He gave no basis at all and mostly just shrugged it off. I think he specializes in traffic, divorce, stuff.
    Geez, sounds like the legal version of the guy who goes into the doctor's office:

    Guy: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

    Dr.: Don't do that.



    Just change the problem a bit...

    Guy: Counselor, I'm worriedabout legal trouble ifI do this.

    Lawyer: Don't do that. $500, please. Pay now.

    I'm with HankT on this one. It's my guess this guy doesn't really have a good idea of what he is talking about. Open carry is definitely not common in Ohio, but it is definitely legal.


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    Attorneys are like doctors. Pick the one with the experience in what you need.
    Don't ask a podiatrist about pain in your shoulder



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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    The attorney’s advice is to inform you of your liabilities, criminally and civilly, as that is their domain. What they do not understand is that civil or criminal consequences are a moot issue when you are dead.

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    A lawyer that that does not respect the individual rights of his clients is a lawyer not worth having. Did he even notice that in HB 347 legal fees of cases lost by the state will be paid for by the state? If I was was a lawyer, I would want my clients to open carry and get charged with bogus, fraudulent charges so I could make some seriously easy $$$$$. And that doesn't even take into account the civil liability of it.

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    reefteach wrote:
    A lawyer that that does not respect the individual rights of his clients is a lawyer not worth having. Did he even notice that in HB 347 legal fees of cases lost by the state will be paid for by the state? If I was was a lawyer, I would want my clients to open carry and get charged with bogus, fraudulent charges so I could make some seriously easy $$$$$. And that doesn't even take into account the civil liability of it.
    Just to be clear...

    If one is prosecuted for Inducing Panic or Disorderly Conduct, one cannot expect (because it will not happen) their legal fees to be paid by the state because 1) HB 347's coverage of the subject applies to challenges of law, and 2) the state would not be the entity charging one anyway.

    Bogus, fraudulent charges and any recovery associated with being charged with them is also not in the purview of HB 347, but rather would be associated with a suit for false arrest.

    IANAL.

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    I don't ever see myself OC'ing. Why? Personal Freedom. And by that I mean how I look.

    I have long hair, tattoos, most occassions wearing thick leather motorcycle pants and some band t-shirt.

    Some say "Just be presentable, nice clothes, and you will be fine." I'm not going to be "just another robot on the street". I am me. So I dress the way I want. I at least can be Free in that aspect. The aspect of me.

    People say "Well, what's the problem of looking 'respectable'?" Well, look at the murderers around....they look RESPECTABLE, so why hasn't anyone said anything about that??

    I have my CHL, and of course people are "astounded". "They let you have one?" I'm not a criminal, you just perceive me as one by what you expect a criminal to be.

    Joe crew cut with hisnice pants and shirtnext door will probably cut your head off for $5.00, yet you better keep an eye on me.

    That's why I won't carry OC.

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    Ground Chuk wrote:
    I don't ever see myself OC'ing. Why? Personal Freedom. And by that I mean how I look.

    I have long hair, tattoos, most occassions wearing thick leather motorcycle pants and some band t-shirt.

    Some say "Just be presentable, nice clothes, and you will be fine." I'm not going to be "just another robot on the street". I am me. So I dress the way I want. I at least can be Free in that aspect. The aspect of me.

    People say "Well, what's the problem of looking 'respectable'?" Well, look at the murderers around....they look RESPECTABLE, so why hasn't anyone said anything about that??

    I have my CHL, and of course people are "astounded". "They let you have one?" I'm not a criminal, you just perceive me as one by what you expect a criminal to be.

    Joe crew cut with hisnice pants and shirtnext door will probably cut your head off for $5.00, yet you better keep an eye on me.

    That's why I won't carry OC.
    I don't think the clothing/tattoos/earrings/hair/etc. should matter for RKBA, including OC.

    I still can't understand the general buying in by OCadvocatesof some kind of suggested dress code while OCing.

    Obviously, it's pragmatic. I get that part. General and specific publics do judge many things on appearance. Also, LEOs.

    But the suggested OC dress code is the only constraint/regulation/acceding to the public's sensibilitiesthat I can think of that the usually rabid OC advocates will actually accept without a knock down drag out fight.

    I wish I could figure out how that happened.

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    Does anyone know of a good firearms attorney in Ohio?

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    Ground Chuk wrote:
    I don't ever see myself OC'ing. Why? Personal Freedom. And by that I mean how I look.

    I have long hair, tattoos, most occassions wearing thick leather motorcycle pants and some band t-shirt.

    Some say "Just be presentable, nice clothes, and you will be fine." I'm not going to be "just another robot on the street". I am me. So I dress the way I want. I at least can be Free in that aspect. The aspect of me.

    People say "Well, what's the problem of looking 'respectable'?" Well, look at the murderers around....they look RESPECTABLE, so why hasn't anyone said anything about that??

    I have my CHL, and of course people are "astounded". "They let you have one?" I'm not a criminal, you just perceive me as one by what you expect a criminal to be.

    Joe crew cut with hisnice pants and shirtnext door will probably cut your head off for $5.00, yet you better keep an eye on me.

    That's why I won't carry OC.
    Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    kblazk wrote:
    Does anyone know of a good firearms attorney in Ohio?
    Here you go:

    Ken Hanson, attorney, author of Ohio Guide to Firearm Laws and counselto OFCC and BFA

    http://www.ohiogunlawguide.com/

    Telephone: 740-363-1213
    FAX: 740-369-0875
    Address: 15 West Winter Street,
    Delaware, Ohio 43015

  25. #25
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    ok thanks

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