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Thread: Considering OC (unloaded) in CA

  1. #1
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    I'm considering OC in an incorporated area, namely the City of Turlock. I just wanted to air my thoughts to your scrutiny to see if I missed something. I would like to restrict this thread to Open Carry (since CCWs are nearly impossible to get).

    Disclaimer: This is not intended to serve as reference or legal advice. I'm not a lawyer, and don't guarantee this information to be 100% accurate.

    After reading up on the pertinent sections of the CA Penal Code, this is what I gather:

    Incorporated areas

    - Illegal to possess a firearm with ammunition loaded or attached in some way (i.e. magazine in magazine well)

    - Legal to possess a loaded firearm when directly en route to effect a lawful arrest (including citizens arrest).

    - Legal to posses a loaded firearm when an immediate, grave threat exists, and only if you immediately inform the local law enforcement agency.

    - Possession of a loaded weapon is a misdemeanor.

    - If you commit any other crime, possession of an unloaded firearm becomes a misdemeaner or felony, depending on the circumstances.

    - LEOs can detain you for inspection of your firearm without warrent to determine that it is not loaded.

    - LEOs can arrest you for possession of a loaded firearm if they have reason to believe your firearm was loaded at some point, even if they did not directly witness this. (I assume this means a non-LEO witness is sufficient evidence.)

    Unicorporated areas:

    - Legal to carry a loaded firearm UNLESS the county has a statute prohibiting such.

    - May be illegal to carry a loaded weapon on a public road in an unincorporated area.

    Private Property:

    - Legal to carry, openly or concealed, a loaded weapon so long as you have legal possession of the firearm and you are on the premises legally (by ownership, possession (e.g. leased property), or permission of owner/possessor).


    The best I can understand the Penal Code, it is not illegal to openly carry an unloaded firarm and ammunition on your person. I believe a magazine with ammunition in it cannot be concealed, so this would probably have to be worn openly too.

    My idea is to have both on my belt. So, if a situation arises, I could quickly load my weapon. Not nearly as fast/safe as already being loaded, but it's the only legal way.

    <EDIT: Revised some OC law observations>
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  2. #2
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    My next step is to research any case law. CA courts are notorious for "making law," and in fact the Penal Code sections I read may be null and void. I doubt this is the case, but I've had enough dealing with the court system to know your best case is to quote one already decided.

    If I don't find any case law to contradict my current findings, my next step will be to contact my county and city law enforcement agencies. My hope would be to gain assurance there are no local statutes that they think further limits my rights. (While I believe state law trumps local, I'm certain that wouldn't stop them from locking me up.)

    The final step is to consider the pros & cons of OC with an unloaded gun. This includes social & tactical issues.

    Social

    - Business owners/management forbidding entry to their public place of business while I OC.
    - Private property access (most of my friends love the idea, but some aquantences would be against me carrying in their homes).
    - General public attitude: OC is so rare here, that most people will just assume I'm a LEO (which could be a bad thing, but I think would generally not cause a problem). Others would think I'm some gun nut from out of town and call the cops to haul me off.

    Tactical

    - Someone intent on causing trouble may decide they need to escalate their use of force to prevent me from using mine (E.g. pull a knife/gun instead of simply brawling).


    By no means an exhaustive list, just a couple I could think of off the cuff.

    I look forward to getting some feedback.
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  3. #3
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    Please give it some more thought and know exactly where you could be headed.Beprepared to be made an example by LEOs and the judicial system. Be especially prepared to have a LOADED :what:firearmleveled at you.

    Remember what happenedtothe unarmed enlisted airmanrecently in your state. I think he fit the description of a felony suspect. He was face-down, following LEO commands to get up(I think the officer meant get down) and theLEO shot him for getting up. Seems as though LEOs in CA are quickly spun-up andkeen to escalate matters in an aggressive manner.

    I would not suggest going anywhere near gangland turf.

    Make sure you are prepared for the worst of possible outcomes and have the following:

    1. Up to date health insurance.

    2. Up to date Life insurance.

    3. Up to date will and power of attorney.

    4. Excellent trial attorney.

    5. Bail bondsman.

    Case law is case law, but jury trials have power to change/nullify case law.

    Good Luck

  4. #4
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    Hokie94Sheepdog wrote:

    Case law is case law, but jury trials have power to change/nullify case law.
    Look at the Illinois OC pages http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum21/78.html

  5. #5
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    Here's the quick and dirty.

    12025 (f) A firearm carried openly in a belt holster is not CONCEALED.

    12031 (g) A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a cartridge in the chamber or in a magazine attached to the firearm.

    12031 (e) Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

    And the general 'California' no go areas...

    12031 Cannot carry aloaded firearm in incorporated areas or prohibited areas of unicorporated territory- Prohibited areas are defined aswhere discharge of a firearmis prohibited.

    171b Cannot carry in any State or local public building or at any meeting required to be open to the public. Exemption for license to carry.

    626.9 Cannot carry within 1000 ft of a K-12 school- loaded or unloaded. Must be transported unloaded in a locked case or locked in the trunk of a car, seperate from the ammuniton. Exemption for license to carry. (You forgot this one...Real important because it's a felony.)

    36 C.F.R. 2.4(a) Cannot carry in a National Park. Loaded or unloaded.

    CCR Title 14, Div.3, chap. 1, s 4313 (a) Cannot carry in a State Park. Loaded or unloaded.

    39 CFR 232.1 Cannot carry in a Post Office. Loaded or unloaded.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  6. #6
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    You mean in California you can not carry in a state park even with a license under 12050?

    If so I was not aware of this.

  7. #7
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Yes- weapons of any kind are prohibited in State Parks.



    Section 4313.
    No person shall carry, possess, or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm, bow and arrow, trap, net, or device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal, or capturing any animal, or damaging any public or private property, except where the Department of Parks and Recreation finds that it is in its best interests. Nothing herein contained shall be construed in derogation of the use of weapons permitted by the law or regulation and to be used for hunting in any unit, or portion of the mechanism, traps, nets, bows, and arrows, other unloaded weapons or devices may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.



    So, by this wording you may not carry an airsoft replica, a slingshot,an indigenous replica blow gun, a mousetrap, lawn darts, a length of twine, or Sharpie marker into a State Park. I suppose its a little more lienient than I initially advertised... You could have your firearm if it is unloaded and disassembled in your temporary lodging or'conveyance'.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  8. #8
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    626.9 Cannot carry within 1000 ft of a K-12 school- loaded or unloaded. Must be transported unloaded in a locked case or locked in the trunk of a car, seperate from the ammuniton. Exemption for license to carry. (You forgot this one...Real important because it's a felony.)
    Yes, I did overlook this. It is a felony if OC (unloaded) on school grounds. To clarify your statement, it appears it is a misdemeanor to carry within 1,000 ft of a school, unless you have a previous conviction under the same section or are prohibited from carrying a firearm. I assume when you say "seperate from the ammunition" you simply mean not loaded, as defined by 12025. I have seen nothing in the law that says you can't store ammunition in the same locking container used to transport your firearm.

    Also, the initial definition given to "school" under 626 is very broad, and could be construed to include universitites, colleges, and "any other place if a teacher and one or more pupils are required to be at that place in connection with assigned school activities."

    I'm glad to see they restricted the definition of "school zone" in subsection 626.9 to include only K-12 schools. I live on the same block as CSU, Stanislaus - my front door is literally about 50 ft from campus. 626.9(i) does prohibit OC (unloaded) on University campuses, but does not include the 1000-ft "school zone" provision. 626.9(i) also requires the prohibition of firearms to be posted at "major entrances."
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  9. #9
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    Hokie94Sheepdog wrote:
    Please give it some more thought and know exactly where you could be headed.Beprepared to be made an example by LEOs and the judicial system. Be especially prepared to have a LOADED :what:firearmleveled at you.

    Remember what happenedtothe unarmed enlisted airmanrecently in your state. I think he fit the description of a felony suspect. He was face-down, following LEO commands to get up(I think the officer meant get down) and theLEO shot him for getting up. Seems as though LEOs in CA are quickly spun-up andkeen to escalate matters in an aggressive manner.
    Here's a link to an article on the LEO shooting the unarmed Iraq veteran. He was a passenger in a DUI chase. Usually something like this would result in a paid vacation, but this article says they're actually prosecuting the deputy for attempted manslaughter.

    I'm aware that I'm putting my life at risk. That's part of what's holding me back. And I agree that most officers I've met in CA do tend to be agressive and try to escalate situations. However, of all the departments I've dealt with throughout Merced, Stanislaus, San Joaquin, and Sacramento, Turlock is the best (Lodi is a close 2nd). Also, I know many of the local officers due to my interaction with them over the years working as a security guard.

    Since I live within the 1 mile jurisdiction of the University PD, I'm most likely to deal with them. From my experience over the past few years, they have much better training and screening than the city & county LEOs. I'm considering notifying the city PD & University PD of my intention to OC. Maybe if I make them aware they'll be less likely to shoot me.
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  10. #10
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Hokie94Sheepdog wrote:
    Please give it some more thought and know exactly where you could be headed.Beprepared to be made an example by LEOs and the judicial system. Be especially prepared to have a LOADED :what:firearmleveled at you.

    Remember what happenedtothe unarmed enlisted airmanrecently in your state. I think he fit the description of a felony suspect. He was face-down, following LEO commands to get up(I think the officer meant get down) and theLEO shot him for getting up. Seems as though LEOs in CA are quickly spun-up andkeen to escalate matters in an aggressive manner.
    Here's a link to an article on the LEO shooting the unarmed Iraq veteran. He was a passenger in a DUI chase. Usually something like this would result in a paid vacationLMFAO!, but this article says they're actually prosecuting the deputy for attempted manslaughter.
    If you notify local PDs and are confident in the levelheadedness of the LEOs, one would think you will be okay. Be safe.

  11. #11
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    I'm with Hokie on this one. Definitely notify them, especially if you figure they're levelheaded. If they're decent at all, they'll at least warn you if there's a less-levelheaded officer who might not take kindly to your unloaded weapon, and they'll all be aware that you aren't out to cause problems.

  12. #12
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    It looks like what you would be doing is perfectly legal, but I am sure CA will frown on your actions and try to make an example of you, although what I see is so cut and dry, I really do not think it would be hard to fight with a good lawyer.

    If you do this, it may go well for a few days, maybe weeks. But eventually you must be prepared, with the time, and money to fight the charges against you.

    If you are trying this to test the legality of it, and make case law of yourself, you are treading down the right path.

    You may want to condsider an audio recording device (always on), and maybe the first time in public, have a friend follow you with a video recorder as this would be great evidence when you eventually will probably land yourself in court, jail, or both.

    I think this is a great idea, but only if you are willing to be unlawfully detained for the sake of the greater good, and have the time and money to do so.

    Good luck, let me know if you decided to continue.


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    openryan wrote:
    It looks like what you would be doing is perfectly legal, but I am sure CA will frown on your actions and try to make an example of you, although what I see is so cut and dry, I really do not think it would be hard to fight with a good lawyer.

    If you do this, it may go well for a few days, maybe weeks. But eventually you must be prepared, with the time, and money to fight the charges against you.

    If you are trying this to test the legality of it, and make case law of yourself, you are treading down the right path.

    You may want to condsider an audio recording device (always on), and maybe the first time in public, have a friend follow you with a video recorder as this would be great evidence when you eventually will probably land yourself in court, jail, or both.

    I think this is a great idea, but only if you are willing to be unlawfully detained for the sake of the greater good, and have the time and money to do so.

    Good luck, let me know if you decided to continue.
    I agree the local cops might not be up-to-snuff on the law, and think they need to make an example of me. A friend of mine is POST (police acedemy) certified, and is constantly misquoting the law. I don't imagine most of the cops are any more qualified to be attorneys.

    However, I do think there is already some good case law here in CA. So, I don't think it's so much of a judiciary battle I'm in for; probably just a local educatin' of the LEOs. However, I believe in being prepared, so I plan to have an attorney lined up.
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  14. #14
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    UPDATE: I've researched the state laws to my satisfaction, and am confident in the legality (on the state level) of what I propose. Now, I'm moving on to research if state law pre-empts local ordinances. I don't think that is the case, as I've heard certain cities have differing laws on knife laws. So, most likely I'll spend at least a week researching local ordinances.


    I've also researched knife laws, and was shocked to find that CA actually has VERY lax knife rules. Again, I'm no expert at interpreting the law, but here's what I gather:

    - Any fixed blade knife (or folding knife without some mechanism to add some slight resistance to the knife opening) must be carried openly. The statute mentions these being worn on the belt, but case law has shown it just has to be openly visible.

    - Any folding knife not mentioned above can be carried openly or concealed, regarless of length.

    - There is no mention of length limitations, except when carrying on school grounds (2.5" on K-12 for all blades; 2.5" on college/university grounds on OC blades, no limit on concealable blades).

    - There is no mention about limitations on single-edged or double-edged blades (contrary to everything I've heard in my 17 years in this state).

    - Any blade with a mechanical opening mechanism and gravity blades (defined as anything that opens from a closed state without a mechanism that causes resistance to the blade opening) are limited to 2" blade length.

    - Local laws may have more stringent prohibitions.

    The law has no defenition for a "sword" (other than references banning cane/umbrella swords). So under state law any fixed blade is considered a "dirk or dagger." So, if I understand correctly, I could strap my katana to my back/belt. I'm not sure that's something I would want to do, but an interesting thing about CA law.

    Hell, as an unarmed citizen, I think I would rather face a guy with a gun than a katana.
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  15. #15
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    UPDATE: I've researched the state laws to my satisfaction, and am confident in the legality (on the state level) of what I propose. Now, I'm moving on to research if state law pre-empts local ordinances. I don't think that is the case, as I've heard certain cities have differing laws on knife laws. So, most likely I'll spend at least a week researching local ordinances.
    Do check city and county ordinances. Example: LA county bans all firearm possession on county property. Also look at city and county park regulations. Some cities and counties might have "regs", a violation of which may qualify as a misdemeanor.

    I also recommend carrying a tape recorder and if possible have a friend or two along as friendly witnesses.

    Good luck and carry on!


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    cato wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    UPDATE: I've researched the state laws to my satisfaction, and am confident in the legality (on the state level) of what I propose. Now, I'm moving on to research if state law pre-empts local ordinances. I don't think that is the case, as I've heard certain cities have differing laws on knife laws. So, most likely I'll spend at least a week researching local ordinances.
    Do check city and county ordinances. Example: LA county bans all firearm possession on county property. Also look at city and county park regulations. Some cities and counties might have "regs", a violation of which may qualify as a misdemeanor.
    I have checked my county and city websites.

    The county only prohibits firearms in "recreational areas" (parks, etc). Shooting within 150 of a dwelling or barn is also illegal, unless the property owner/occupant gives permission.

    ================================================== ==========

    The city of Turlock website has a disclaimer saying the online text of the Municiple Code is not an official copy, and suggests verifying anything you read in there by visiting city hall to read the hard copy. It appears that there used to be a ban/restriction on carrying, but that section has been REPEALED!

    5-7-02 Dangerous weapons: Carrying. (Repealed)
    5-7-01 defines dangerous weapons; pretty much a duplicate of state definition.
    The repealed section is blank, the only other ordinances:
    - no fighting ("disorderly conduct") while carrying a deadly weapon.
    - no discharing a firearm (exemption with permission of the police chief)
    - exempts discharging air rifles and "22 calibre" firearms at shooting range (operation of a shooting range requires permission of the police chief).

    There is a regulation I almost missed regarding parks: complete ban on firearms. THANK YOU for mentioning this... I would never had thought to look for this, and I do enjoy going to the park.

    ================================================== ==========

    The city of Modesto (where I work) website doesn't have a disclaimer, and does not mention ANY restriction on firearm carry. There is a provision saying firearms may only be discharged at authorized shooting ranges (overseen by the police chief). There is, however, an ordinance banning any blade longer than 3 inches! (The folder I carry is 4 inches.)
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    I've been discussing this with some friends. They sound very surprised by my findings (law vs. the commonly believed myth), but very excited by this idea.

    One of my friends, who has never owned a gun, said he might buy one now. He told me his sister has been taking firearms courses at the local college, and bought a gun recently. In his words, "she'll be all over this."

    Another friend is in the Army National Guard, and doesn't even have a gun in CA. He apparently the ones he owns modified in ways that are illegal in CA. Just gotta find him a piece and a holster, and he's on board.

    So, I'm anticipating I may have 2-5 people in my area that are willing to excercise their 2A right (within the confines of CA laws). If each of them knows a couple people interested... could turn into something noticeable.
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    cato wrote:
    I also recommend carrying a tape recorder and if possible have a friend or two along as friendly witnesses.
    Gotta be careful with this one. CA PC Section 632(c) relies on what the jury thinks should be reasonably expected to be overheard or recorded. Probably safe out on the sidewalk, but may be a gray area in some other "public" places (e.g. a bank).

    Code:
    632. (a) Every person who, intentionally and without the consent of  all parties to a confidential communication, by means of any  electronic amplifying or recording device, eavesdrops upon or records  the confidential communication, whether the communication is carried  on among the parties in the presence of one another or by means of a  telegraph, telephone, or other device, except a radio, shall be  punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars  ($2,500), or imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year,  or in the state prison, or by both that fine and imprisonment. If  the person has previously been convicted of a violation of this  section or Section 631, 632.5, 632.6, 632.7, or 636, the person shall  be punished by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000),  by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or in the  state prison, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
    .
    .
    .
    (c) The term "confidential communication" includes any  communication carried on in circumstances as may reasonably indicate  that any party to the communication desires it to be confined to the  parties thereto, but excludes a communication made in a public  gathering or in any legislative, judicial, executive or  administrative proceeding open to the public, or in any other  circumstance in which the parties to the communication may reasonably  expect that the communication may be overheard or recorded.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Here's a link to an article on the LEO shooting the unarmed Iraq veteran. He was a passenger in a DUI chase. Usually something like this would result in a paid vacation, but this article says they're actually prosecuting the deputy for attempted manslaughter.
    This is the case where the deputy Ivory Webb commanded the proned-out soldier to "Get up!"

    But what Webb really meant by that is "I'm going to shoot you three times if you get up!"

    A slight communication problem...

    Deputy Ivory Webb was acquitted, BTW.

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    HankT wrote:
    This is the case where the deputy Ivory Webb commanded the proned-out soldier to "Get up!"

    But what Webb really meant by that is "I'm going to shoot you three times if you get up!"

    A slight communication problem...

    Deputy Ivory Webb was acquitted, BTW.
    So he was... and reinstated.

    "Police officers have to be given the right to make their decisions," said juror Richard Day, 43, of Highland. "If they make a bad decision in the line of duty, should we hold them responsible for that to the point that we incarcerate them for it? I don't think so."
    This guy makes me sick... ESPECIALLY when LEOs make bad decisions in the line of duty is when we should incarcerate them. You would think the police would be held to a HIGHER standard than "civilians." The deputy acted unprofessionally the entire encounter by losing his cool and spewing streams of profanities, even AFTER he shot the guy.

    This link has a full video of a couple minutes before the shooting through about 7 minutes after the shooting. I couldn't watch the whole thing, but of the three minutes I did watch, the officer was yelling the whole time, and about every 4th word was censored.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    cato wrote:
    I also recommend carrying a tape recorder and if possible have a friend or two along as friendly witnesses.
    Gotta be careful with this one. CA PC Section 632(c) relies on what the jury thinks should be reasonably expected to be overheard or recorded. Probably safe out on the sidewalk, but may be a gray area in some other "public" places (e.g. a bank).

    Code:
    632. (a) Every person who, intentionally and without the consent of all parties to a confidential communication, by means of any electronic amplifying or recording device, eavesdrops upon or records the confidential communication, whether the communication is carried on among the parties in the presence of one another or by means of a telegraph, telephone, or other device, except a radio, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500), or imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison, or by both that fine and imprisonment. If the person has previously been convicted of a violation of this section or Section 631, 632.5, 632.6, 632.7, or 636, the person shall be punished by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000), by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
    .
    .
    .
    (c) The term "confidential communication" includes any communication carried on in circumstances as may reasonably indicate that any party to the communication desires it to be confined to the parties thereto, but excludes a communication made in a public gathering or in any legislative, judicial, executive or administrative proceeding open to the public, or in any other circumstance in which the parties to the communication may reasonably expect that the communication may be overheard or recorded.
    Police officers have no expectation of privacy when on duty and a citizen has no expectation of privacy when talking to a police officer actingwithin thescope of their duties. I can't site code, but that is what is being taught by CA POST (Peace Officer Standard Training).

    Please do tape any encounters with LEO.

  22. #22
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    cato wrote:
    Police officers have no expectation of privacy when on duty and a citizen has no expectation of privacy when talking to a police officer actingwithin thescope of their duties. I can't site code, but that is what is being taught by CA POST (Peace Officer Standard Training).

    Please do tape any encounters with LEO.
    Yes, since LEOs, almost without exception, will be recording you, the statute exception would be met. Since they're already recording, it's logical fact that they reasonably expect that they're going to be recorded.

    My concern would be in businesses or on private property, where a person may expect some reasonable level of privacy. I used the example of a bank, where you probably don't want someone recording as you discuss account numbers and balances with the teller.

    I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I just want to warn people they gotta be careful when and where they record.
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  23. #23
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    Glad to have you abord! I look forward to your future openly armed postings!

  24. #24
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    Just received verification from the city of Turlock:

    Per Lorraine @ the city attorney's office:

    "I checked with the Sargeant. Our rules are the same as the state: open and unloaded.
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  25. #25
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Just received verification from the city of Turlock:

    Per Lorraine @ the city attorney's office:

    "I checked with the Sargeant. Our rules are the same as the state: open and unloaded.
    I was on my way out of the office when I posted this, and wanted to elaborate on an interesting conversation:

    In my initial call, the following exchange took place:

    CA_Libertarian - "I'm interested in finding out if there are any city ordinances prohibiting the carry of firearms."

    Lorraine - "You want information on a weapon permit?"

    C- "Not really, I just want to know if the city prohibits carrying a firearm."

    L- "I know you can't carry one without a permit."

    C- (as casually as possible) "Well, I read in Penal Code sections 12025 and 12031 that I can't carry a weapon concealed or loaded... is that what you mean?"

    L- (obviously flustered) "Yeah..."

    C- "Sorry I wasn't clear, I'm just interested in any local laws about carrying an unloaded firearm. The city website is down (which it was), and I was hoping you could verify this for me."

    L- "Let me search our offline copy of the Municipal Code..." (puts me on hold)

    L- (now friendly, no longer sounding flustered) "Well, there's none that I could find, but I'll ask one of the Sargeants to give you a call."

    She was the one that called me back (not a Sargeant), which disappointed me, as I was going to ask them some questions about their guidelines for deciding to issue CCWs. (I'm interested in one for the purpose of exempting myself from 12031.)


    Anyhow, just thought it was interesting how she immediately and confidently stated, "I know you can't carry [a firearm] without a permit," and how flustered she was when I demonstrated some knowledge of the law. Hopefully she appreciates that I put on my happy, carefree voice and didn't grill her for providing misleading information.
    Participant in the Free State Project - "Liberty in Our Lifetime" - www.freestateproject.org
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