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Thread: Kicked out of Barnes & Noble an hour ago (potomac yard)!

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    About an hour ago, I was asked to leave Barnes & Noble at 3651 Jefferson Davis Highway (Rt. 1) in Alexandria under threat of "something very bad".

    After a nice dinner with my girlfriend at Panera, I arrived at B&N at around 9:15pm to do a little reading and to possibly pick up the new Harry Potter book for her. They had a midnight party which I wasn't aware of until I got there, and since I OC at that particular B&N about once a week, I never thought twice about it. As always I nodded to the security guard upon entering, and as a matter of fact, I was seen by no fewer than 5 employees upon entering because they were giving out free Harry Potter glasses and graduation tassles, one older gentleman handing them out who asked me, "Hey, is that your mouse gun on your hip or is that your little friend?" with a smile given, and a of course a smile returned I replied, "It's my little friend..." > )

    We walked over to the table where they were handing out wristbands because my girlfriend was still unsure if she wanted a copy but they were only to pre-orders, so that accounts for the 5 or so who saw me right off the bat. No problems.

    We strolled some isles, and over by the magazine racks, they were taking pictures with Harry Potter, and some more employees suggested we go take our picture, so we did. (cute pic, if I have time I'll put that up as an aside) Next to the picture stand, there was a booth were you could decorate your polaroid afterwards with about another 2 employees. No problems.

    I got a couple gun magazines and took a seat in a big comfy sofa chair and plunked down to start reading. I was sitting, with a stack of 3 magazines in my lap, so it'd be pretty hard to see whether or not I was carrying regardless. No problems... for an hour and a half.

    At around 10:45, without warning, a hand waved in front of me because I was in Condition Magazine, and the usual, "Are you a law enforcement officer?" was asked. I replied no.

    Sgt. Mucci: "Why do you have a gun then?"

    me: "Personal self-defense."

    Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, and I'm going to have to see your concealed permit if you have one as well."

    I then noticed that there was another officer behind me, and I replied, "Is there a problem? I'm open carrying so I don't need a concealed carry permit, and I've open carried here many times before, what's the problem?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, we'll talk about this outside."

    I asked, "Am I being arrested officer?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "No, you'd be in cuffs by now."

    I asked, "Am I being detained officer?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "No, but if you don't come with us, there'll be something very bad."


    Since there was a crowd forming now, and I was getting HIGHLY embarassed, and not knowing where my girlfriend was, I stood up and said, "If I'm not being detained I'll talk with you guys outside."

    Luckily my g/f was right behind them, having seen it as it happened, and I gave her the purse I was holding for her, and the cute Harry Potter pic we had. I asked her to wait here, and I'd be back.

    I FELT LIKE A CRIMINAL WALKING OUT OF THE STORE DOUBLESIDED BY LEO'S WITH EVERY EYE ON ME.

    Once outside, Sgt. Terri Mucci asked me, "Why do you have a gun?"

    me:"Like I said, personal self-defense."

    Sgt. Mucci: "Can I have your ID?"

    me:"No. I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion."

    Sgt. Mucci: "What's your name?"

    me:"I'm Chris, what's your name?"

    no reply...

    Sgt. Mucci: "What's your last name?"

    me:"I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion. I'm Chris."

    Sgt. Mucci: "I don't know what your problem is, or what agenda you're pushing, but there are dozens of kids, and this is a playground."

    I replied, "I've never had a problem in Barnes & Noble and it was my understanding that company police as well as the law allowed me to carry here. So what's this about? I'm open carrying which is legal, and I'm not breaking any laws."

    Sgt. Mucci: "The manager asked us to remove you from the store, and you're not allowed back in unless you disarm."

    me: "In fact, if I remember correctly, Captain Hassan addressed a similar incident which just happened a couple weeks ago, and wrote an email to a friend saying it wouldn't happen again."

    Sgt. Mucci: "I don't care what was said, I have a problem with you carrying here, tonight."


    me: "I've been here MANY times before, about once a week and have never had a problem, in fact the security guard on duty noticed me like he always does and didn't have a problem with it. If there's ever a problem in any place I visit with the management, then I'd be more than happy to leave, may I speak with the manager?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "I don't care what you want to do, you're not allowed back in until you disarm, with that." <points at my firearm>

    me: "Fine. May I have your business card please?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "I don't carry business cards, but my name is Sgt. Mucci."

    me: "And what's your name?" <I gesture to the other guy>

    Officer Brown: "I'm Brown, here's my card." (badge #1694)

    me: "Thank you, may I borrow your pen?"

    He gives it to me, and I write down Sgt. Terri Mucci's name & badge # (1331) on the back of Brown's card.

    me: "Thank you very much."

    My girlfriend came out sometime around that point, and I walked to my car and let her back in, told her I was going back inside to talk to management, and apologized profusely for embarassing her and myself. I secured my firearm in my glove compartment, locked it, then went back. I thought about just leaving there and then, but I wanted to make sure a report wasn't going to be filed against me for anything after the fact, plus I wanted to talk to the manager because I've never ever had a problem in the times I've been there before. Sgt. Mucci was still at the door with Officer Brown.

    me: "I've disarmed, may I go back in?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "I don't care what you do."

    me: "I just want to make sure I won't be arrested for tresspassing upon entering as I've already disarmed."

    Sgt. Mucci: "We were told to escort you out and not let you back in unless you disarmed."

    me: "Okay."

    I took that to mean I wasn't going to be arrested for tresspassing, but I was scared. I walked in and asked for the manager at the front desk.

    While waiting, Sgt. Mucci comes back in and here's what happened (STUPID ME I DIDN'T TURN ON MY CELL PHONE UNTIL NOW and stupider me, it only records 1 minute intervals... GRRR!). I quickly fumble to the recorder and this is all I got of the whole night...

    Sgt. Mucci: "Keep it in an adult environment, this right here is a playground. I don't really care because what happens here right now is there's an ethical decision that takes over whatever your legal agenda is. Call your lawyer and you can have that conversation with him all day long. This makes small children's parents uncomfortable. Barnes & noble and management does not want you in this store with a gun."

    me: "Well that's why I wanted to talk to the management just to make sure."


    Just then, the friendly manager comes over, Stephanie, who offers her business card, and offers to talk to me outside, I say sure because I don't want to cause any scene or detract from her business.

    We go outside where I say:

    me (to officer Brown): "I'm completely legal, right?"

    Officer Brown: "Oh yes, otherwise you'd have been arrested by now."

    me (to Stephanie): "Okay, I just wanted to apologize for scaring any patrons inside, but I've open carried here many times before, and I come here about once a week if you remember my face. I've never had a problem with any employees, and I usually say hi to the security guard on duty as soon as I enter just so he knows. Have the store policies changed to prohibit legally carried firearms in the store?"

    Stephanie: "Oh no! It's not a store policy, it's just that we had a couple complaints from customers who were concerned tonight."

    me: "I understand completely, and I don't want to scare anybody, so there's been no problem with me carrying before, right?"

    Stephanie: "No, and in fact, I think I remember that you've been here before, and welcome you back, I just wanted to make sure everything was okay."

    me: "Did you ask these officers to remove me from the building?"

    Stephanie: "No, I called the officers and asked them to make sure everything was legal and alright and do whatever they had to do."

    me: "So you didn't ask them to tell me to leave?"

    Stephanie: "No, I just wanted to make sure everything was okay."

    me: "I just wanted to get that straightened out, and thank you for being so nice, I'm sorry I caused any trouble, and wanted to talk to you to make sure that store policies haven't changed. If you don't mind I'd like to give you a call later this week to follow up on anything."

    Stephanie: "Sure, I'd like that, in the meantime I'll try to call [I forget something about legal]L&P corporate to make sure about our store's policy."

    me: "One last thing, if you could please find the people who complained about me and tell them that I was completely safe and legal and I didn't mean to scare them and that I'm very sorry."

    Stephanie: "I'll try, and thank you."

    me: "Thanks."

    I then asked:

    me to Sgt. Mucci: "Management didn't ask me to leave, why was I removed?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "Mangement had a problem, so we removed you."

    Officer Brown: "I was told to escort you out by an employee, so I did.--"

    Sgt. Mucci: "--Look, I'm not here to debate with you over your rights or the laws, we asked you to leave because management had a problem so you can get out of here now. I'm done talking with you."

    me to Brown: "Fine, then why was I forced to leave if the management said she didn't ask you guys to ask me to leave"

    Officer Brown: "I'm done talking with you as well. I have nothing else to say."

    I then lit up a cigarette, took the long way to my car so I wasn't followed, only noticing now that there were about 4 cars and one police SUV, and another 4 officers standing about 15 feet out of sight. VERY nervous, I got back into my car, apologized again for embarassing my girlfriend and left. Went to Double D's for a coffee and came back to type this up. More when I calm down. *sigh* I thought this **** was over when Hassan got that email a couple weeks back. I guess not.
    -Unrequited

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    SHORT (too short : ( ) video here:

    http://www.christopherwu.net/files/bn_apd_crap.3gp
    -Unrequited

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Ugh this makes my blood boil, officers hiding behind little children so they can be jackboots. Good report though. If I understand correctly you can come back armed right?

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    longwatch wrote:
    Ugh this makes my blood boil, officers hiding behind little children so they can be jackboots.* Good report though.* If I understand correctly you can come back armed right?
    Yup. I'll get the full skinny from Stephanie when I call her later this week. I didn't mention, but she was SOOOOOO nice and polite the entire way through, and apologized to me for the police thing saying she had to call because of a customer complaint. Please read her words as kind as you can read them.
    -Unrequited

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I think the tone she had comes through especially on the video.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I think you ought to shoot an email to Capt Hassan now.

    Ask him when that retraining was supposed to kick in.

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    That so sucks! I think you did a fine job of keeping your cool during the encounter, at least in the 60 seconds of audio you captured with the manager seemed quite calm. Based on your side of the story, I think a complaint is in order.

    Since a call for service was made to the PD, it'd probably be a good idea to formulate a FOIA request to get the initiating call recording and all other communications. Following examination of the response...file a complaint.

    The store manager did not request that you be removed. Therefore, it was unnecessary to force you to take the walk of shame. Not to mention, the officer was opining about the ethical question vs your agenda...hipocracy! Was it ethical for him to remove you from the store when there wasn't a request to do so and you weren't committing a crime?

    I guess the great letter to the APD did no good. Let me know when we intend to go to their next council meeting. I'm there.

    ETA: Alexandria Mayor William Euille is a member of Bloomberg's coalition

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    Start putting your complaint together.

    Removing you under "threat of something bad" seems tantamount to a threat of arrest. In fact I would consider it a thinly-veiled threat of such.

    I am going to say this next very, verycarefully. I, personally, would use the strongest civil language to raise holy living hell about the police officer coming this close to precipitating a violent encounter. You are allowed to use reasonable force to resist an unlawful arrest. He came oh, so close to giving you legal authorization to use reasonable force to resist. He's armed, they have Tasers, they have pepper spray, they are not going to back down--you can figure out for yourself just how far "reasonable' could actually go in this case. Would you take it that far? Probably not. Can the officer know that for sure? Noway.Am I recommending you or anyone else here take it that far? Absolutely not. That cop had better really and trulylearn what a false arrest attempt can precipitate; and what an incorrectly understood verbal feint could precipitate. Here issome case law you can cite if you care to pursue thisaspect in a complaint. It is from Commonwealth vs. Hill. The link is at the bottom. Emphasis mine.

    "....We conclude that the law of this Commonwealth, including
    the common law of England incorporated into our Code by  1-10,
    does not provide a basis for recognizing a common law right to
    use force to resist an illegal detention. In the absence of
    authority requiring such a right, we perceive no reason for
    enlarging, by judicial decision, the scope of the common law on
    this subject.
    Under the common law, a citizen generally is permitted to
    use reasonable force to resist an illegal arrest.
    See Banner v.
    Commonwealth, 204 Va. 640, 646-47, 133 S.E.2d 305, 309-10
    (1963); Brown v. Commonwealth, 27 Va. App. 111, 116-17, 497
    S.E.2d 527, 530 (1998). The underlying rationale supporting
    this common law right is the "provocation" of an illegal arrest,
    which operates to excuse an assault directed at thwarting the
    unlawful arrest. See Rodgers v. State, 373 A.2d 944, 947 (Md.
    1977); State v. Hobson, 577 N.W.2d 825, 830 (Wis. 1998). An
    unlawful arrest was considered a great provocation at common law
    because of the dire consequences, including incarceration of
    extreme duration, which often resulted before an accused was
    permitted a trial for the charged offense. See State v.
    Valentine, 935 P.2d 1294, 1300-01 (Wash. 1997); see also State
    v. Gardiner, 814 P.2d 568, 572 (Utah 1991); Hobson, 577 N.W.2d
    at 835.

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...tx/1012526.txt



    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    In reference to my above post, that cop had better get an understanding that the workability ofhis "intimidating" demeanor is premised on a citizen NOT knowing his rights.What if someone decided to call his bluff? Worse, what if he wasn't bluffing?

    In a room full of children.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    unrequited wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Ugh this makes my blood boil, officers hiding behind little children so they can be jackboots.* Good report though.* If I understand correctly you can come back armed right?
    Yup. I'll get the full skinny from Stephanie when I call her later this week. I didn't mention, but she was SOOOOOO nice and polite the entire way through, and apologized to me for the police thing saying she had to call because of a customer complaint. Please read her words as kind as you can read them.
    Actually, if it wasn't almost 2 am, I would consider calling that B&N and compliment her on her handling of the situation.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Something very bad?
    That's why I went outside.
    -Unrequited

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Think more like IHOP

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    longwatch wrote:
    Think more like IHOP
    Ditto
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    AbNo wrote:
    Actually, if it wasn't almost 2 am, I would consider calling that B&N and compliment her on her handling of the situation.
    I just did that, and thanked her again for being so polite, and asked her again matter-of-factly if she had asked the police to remove me from the store, she said no. Very nice, very polite.
    -Unrequited

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    unrequited wrote:
    Something very bad?
    That's why I went outside.
    We didn't get to see the precipitating events that caused this to happen, so we don't know the full circumstances under which it occurred. However, not being LEO, it certainly seems their use of the taser was excessive. Of course other LEO may not think it was excessive.

    Wish the audio and video were better too.

    At any rate, who do you call when you have to call someone on the cops?

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    unrequited wrote:
    AbNo wrote:
    Actually, if it wasn't almost 2 am, I would consider calling that B&N and compliment her on her handling of the situation.
    I just did that, and thanked her again for being so polite, and asked her again matter-of-factly if she had asked the police to remove me from the store, she said no. Very nice, very polite.
    Did you record this phone call?

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    Some brief analysis,

    The cop saying you were not being detained; yet making a threat of "something bad" are contradictory statements. If you are not being detained, it is a consensual encounter and you are free to disregard the officers instructions or questions. In that you, or any reasonable person, would have no real choice but to comply or suffer "something bad" you were not free to disregard. Thus, regardless of his statement that you weren't being detained, you were seized.Commonwealth vs Hodnett,quoting Commonwealth vs Satchell.

    "'[If] the circumstances of the encounter are so

    intimidating as to demonstrate that a reasonable person would

    have believed [that] he was not free to leave if he had not

    responded, . . . the [encounter] resulted in a detention under

    the Fourth Amendment.'" Commonwealth v. Satchell, 15 Va. App.

    127, 133, 422 S.E.2d 412, 416 (1992) (quoting I.N.S. v. Delgado,

    466 U.S. 210, 216, 104 S. Ct. 1758, 1763, 80 L.Ed.2d 247

    (1984)).

    Hodnett: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/2565983.txt
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    More case law supporting the conclusion that despite the thug's statement you were not being detained, you were seized. From Piggot vs Commonwealth, quoting others. Emphasis mine.

    II. THE SEIZURE

    "Fourth Amendment jurisprudence recognizes three categories

    of police-citizen confrontations: (1) consensual encounters,

    (2) brief, minimally intrusive investigatory detentions, based

    upon specific, articulable facts, commonly referred to as Terry

    stops, and (3) highly intrusive arrests and searches founded on

    probable cause." Wechsler v. Commonwealth, 20 Va. App. 162,

    169, 455 S.E.2d 744, 747 (1995) (citation omitted).

    "A consensual encounter occurs when police officers

    approach persons in public places 'to ask them questions,'

    provided 'a reasonable person would understand that he or she

    could refuse to cooperate
    .'"
    Payne v. Commonwealth, 14 Va. App.

    86, 88, 414 S.E.2d 869, 870 (1992) (citations omitted). "As

    long as the person to whom questions are put remains free to

    disregard the questions and walk away, there has been no

    intrusion upon that person's liberty or privacy as would under

    the Constitution require some particularized and objective

    justification."
    United States v. Mendenhall, 446 U.S. 544, 554

    (1979).

    An encounter is not consensual "if, in view of all of the

    circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person

    would have believed
    that he was not free to leave." Id. The

    "principle embodied by the phrase 'free to leave' means the

    ability to ignore the police and to walk away from them," to

    "'feel free to decline the officers' requests or otherwise

    terminate the encounter.'
    "
    United States v. Wilson, 953 F.2d

    116, 122 (4th Cir. 1991) (quoting Florida v. Bostick, 501 U.S.

    429, 436 (1991)).

    http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/2250992.txt

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    vrwmiller wrote:
    unrequited wrote:
    Something very bad?
    That's why I went outside.
    We didn't get to see the precipitating events that caused this to happen, so we don't know the full circumstances under which it occurred.* However, not being LEO, it certainly seems their use of the taser was excessive.* Of course other LEO may not think it was excessive.
    Ok, short answer on this video....(yes, this is O/T, let's not comment anymore on this)

    Kid was in Powell's library. Campus security notice he's acting up, ask him for ID. He refuses, gettting really smarmy and being a snot-nosed punk. They tell him to leave, he responds in a continually juvenile manner.

    Campus security gets "real" cops, they tell him to leave or they will take him away. He's still being a smart-arse, and generally thinking it's a joke. They cuff him, and start taking him away, so he goes limp, drags his feet, and catches them on chair/table legs on the way out, trying to be cool.

    The cops tell him if he doesn't cut it out, he's getting zapped. He tries to call their bluff.

    They aren't bluffing.

    So in the end, he ends up crying like a baby because he wanted to act tough.

    Again, this is all O/T, so let's stick to Unrequited's post....
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    unrequited wrote:
    Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, and I'm going to have to see your concealed permit if you have one as well."

    ...
    Sgt. Mucci: "What's your name?"

    me:"I'm Chris, what's your name?"

    no reply...

    Sgt. Mucci: "What's your last name?"

    me:"I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion. I'm Chris."


    Sounds like you handled it very well, un.

    Sgt. Mucci seems to have blatantly lied. I think a formal complaint is in order, for sure.

    Did you ever give him your full name or show him your concealed permit as he asked for? I think it would have been OK to identify yourself by giving your full name. The permit was not necessary, of course, so that didn't need to come out. But the name would have been good in this situation, I think.

    This case has an interesting aspect, besides the usual one of anOCer going about his business, law-abiding and legal 100%. And that is that a manager of a business will sometimes be faced with having to resolve some concerns/complaints from her customer(s) about a man with a gun in the business. There are only two general ways to handle that and calling the police to come over is one of them. Did the manager do something wrong? No, she was legitimatelyresponding to the needs of her customers. Did the complainants do something wrong? Probably not. They just saw a guy with a gun, were legitimately concerned,andwanted it checkedout. Were there children present at the store? Seems like children being present could be structural component to this kind of complaint/manager/police sequence. You can never stop (or criticize) someone for being concerned about the children.


    Sgt. Mucci got caught in a big fat lie. It's a reminder of what apjonas means when he says "the LEO is not your friend." Sometimes the police will just LIEto you.


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    TEX1N wrote: That is the exact model I have on order from Amazon.com

    Allows you to download audio files directly to your PC, very handy.

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    vrwmiller wrote:
    At any rate, who do you call when you have to call someone on the cops?
    An old question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire_VI

    Satire VI alone composes Book II of Juvenal's five books of satire. In addition, Satire VI contains the famous phrase, "Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (but who will guard the guards themselves), which is variously translated as "But who guards the guards?", "But who watches the watchmen?", or similar. (This phrase has been used as an epigraph to numerous works, most notably Watchmen and the Tower Commission Report.[1]) In context, it refers to the impossibility of enforcing moral behavior when the enforcers (custodes) are corruptible: ... I am awareof whatever councils you old friends warn,i.e. "throw the bold and lock her in.” But who is going to guard theguards themselves, who now keep silent the lapses of the loosegirl - paid off in the same coin? The common crime keeps its silence.A prudent wife looks ahead and starts (her infidelities) with them. ... nouiconsilia et ueteres quaecumque monetis amici,'pone seram, cohibe'. sed quis custodiet ipsoscustodes, qui nunc lasciuae furta puellaehac mercede silent? crimen commune tacetur.prospicit hoc prudens et a illis incipit uxor.(6.O29-34)

  24. #24
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    unrequited wrote:
    Yup. I'll get the full skinny from Stephanie when I call her later this week. I didn't mention, but she was SOOOOOO nice and polite the entire way through, and apologized to me for the police thing saying she had to call because of a customer complaint. Please read her words as kind as you can read them.
    No, she did not have to call, and you should report her to B&N management. Asking the police to check you out is rediculous. The police are only going to act as if they were asked to remove you - else if somthing happenned, they would he held responsible for not acting on management's request to remove you (that is how it will be re-charachterized later).

  25. #25
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    Perhaps filing a complaint about this particular manager is not the best answer. Perhaps asking her if she will act in the same way in the future is the right answer, give her a shot to tell you if she'll do it again, now knowing that your fully within your right to carry. Though they can always ask you to leave later on at anytime, and if you stay it would be tresspassing, but she doesn't seem like she'd do that.



    Thought you handled it well Chris. Way to keep cool under pressure.

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