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Unlawfully detained at Southcenter mall

Mainsail

Mainsail

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G27 wrote:
Just a quick question. At anytime were you disarmed? And this "tresspass" notice, is it as they are going to press charges against you or you are not allowed to go to the mall ever again? If it is the later, don't worry. But technically you did not tresspass as you were never asked to leave, and even then since it is a public place it's sticky.
Click to expand...

I’m not a legal expert, but I believe when they ‘trespass’ you, it’s just a written record that you have been advised not to return.
 
S

sandy

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Sounds familiar.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=24&forum_id=55&jump_to=33005#p33005

Was one of them B. Jordan? He's the officer who pushed me around on May 13th. I'm sorry for not fighting this fight myself. Perhaps it could have spared you that experience. My encounter at SouthCenter was my first one where I attempted to decline to provide ID, and I was overwhelmed by theofficers' reactions when I attempted to assert my right to decline an unreasonable search.When it was over I found that I hadnot donea very good job of documenting it. And because I was alone with my three kids, I could not safely risk arrest, so I was much more easily intimidated. They treated me very badly.If my testimony can help your case in any way, I'd be happy to help.

I had a more recent encounter with threatening police behavior in Redmond, where I believe I have solid cause for action.It was on public property, so there is no interference from the property owner to muddy the waters.I am in the process of hiring a lawyer as we speak. I'll contact you off list so we can share details.

--Sandy (WA)
 
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USN_MA1

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That pretty much sucks ass.

Silver lining...think of all the goodies you can get when you get the settlement...:celebrate
 
just_a_car

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USN_MA1 wrote:
That pretty much sucks ass.

Silver lining...think of all the goodies you can get when you get the settlement...:celebrate
Click to expand...
As much as I think a settlement would be a good idea to save Aaron the hassle of a court case, if this does get into court and a ruling is made, then we have legal precedent and the PD's all over WA will have to 'get straight' on OC. This is a chance to rectify issues with all WA PD's and no one was seriously injured or jailed... I'm not sure we could've asked for a much better "test case".
 
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44Brent

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no one was seriously injured
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I wouldn't draw that conclusion. Any physical injuries need to be documented. Then, there's the mental and emotional factors of being assaulted by "police officers".

BTW, expvideo, are you going to tell us where to send our donations to grease the skids for the legal expenses?
 
just_a_car

just_a_car

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44Brent wrote:
no one was seriously injured
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I wouldn't draw that conclusion. Any physical injuries need to be documented. Then, there's the mental and emotional factors of being assaulted by "police officers".

BTW, Aaron, are you going to tell us where to send our donations to grease the skids for the legal expenses?
Click to expand...

Yes, I realize that. That's why I suggested on my first response to get his arm checked out.

Maybe I should have said "no one was immediately hospitalized"... i.e. as in Rodney King-style.
 
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John Henry

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I am willing to donate some money to help pay for legal fees.

Wow have members of the LAPD joined the Tukwila force? ;)

Has anyone noticed that the cops are being more aggressive towards open carry?

Or are the cops just not used to seeing it?
 
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joeroket

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just_a_car wrote:
USN_MA1 wrote:
That pretty much sucks ass.

Silver lining...think of all the goodies you can get when you get the settlement...:celebrate
Click to expand...
As much as I think a settlement would be a good idea to save Aaron the hassle of a court case, if this does get into court and a ruling is made, then we have legal precedent and the PD's all over WA will have to 'get straight' on OC. This is a chance to rectify issues with all WA PD's and no one was seriously injured or jailed... I'm not sure we could've asked for a much better "test case".
Click to expand...
If he does win a civil suit it give us no precedent. Civil suits hold no precedent under criminal law. It may be used to "curb" thier aggressive nature but that is all. Not to mention the City will most likely ask for a gag order and ask that the case be sealed to keep it out of public eye. This has been done in the past with lawsuits against cities where they felt it could have an unwanted affect in the cities eyes.
 
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openryan

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BB62 wrote:
An unlawful detention by the officers, and a "forced" picture and signature?

Heck no, I would not have signed anything. Let them arrest me (which they could not have done).

Seems to me we OCers need to have our playbook down pat before OCing.
Click to expand...
Yes, I am not understanding how they 'forced' you to sign the papers.

From how I understood the post, was it the mall security that forced you to sign papers? -- If so, if you refused to have signed the papers, there was not anything the police could have done about it. Sure they could have arrested you for it (unlawfully), and it would have made an even stronger case :)!!
 
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joshmmm

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I believe (thought I could be wrong) that when the police trespass you, at the property owner/manager's discretion, you are required to sign the trespass notice they give you--much like a speeding ticket. (probably so if you come back they have proof that you received notice ofbeing trespassed previously)

I don't know of the RCW, but I am sure if someone has some time it's probably in there.
 
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Dave Workman

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BB62 wrote:
An unlawful detention by the officers, and a "forced" picture and signature?

Heck no, I would not have signed anything.  Let them arrest me (which they could not have done).
Click to expand...

Oh, yes they can. You can be arrested for "obstructing." Or they can find something else, but they CAN arrest you.

It doesn't necessarily mean the arrest will stick, but it will still be ON YOUR RECORD.
 
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expvideo

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BB62 wrote:
An unlawful detention by the officers, and a "forced" picture and signature?

Heck no, I would not have signed anything. Let them arrest me (which they could not have done).

Seems to me we OCers need to have our playbook down pat before OCing.
Click to expand...

The picture and signature were for the trespass from the mall. I am not allowed there for a year. I had the playbook "down pat", so let's not start acting like I didn't handle this well. I'm not in jail and I'm looking forward to legal action against the department, how did I not follow the playbook?



OpenRyan wrote:

Yes, I am not understanding how they 'forced' you to sign the papers.

From how I understood the post, was it the mall security that forced you to sign papers? -- If so, if you refused to have signed the papers, there was not anything the police could have done about it. Sure they could have arrested you for it (unlawfully), and it would have made an even stronger case :)!!
Click to expand...
The case is strong enough as it is. I don't care about being trespassed from a mall that I will no longer be patronizing anyway (I don't spend money at gun-free victim zones).

I'm more concerned about emotional damages from the case. I am uncomfortable to use my second amendment rights and open carry, and I'm affraid of police officers. Not to mention the fact that I was publicly humiliated.

Trust me, if they want to settle it will involve a large chunk of change, a few fired cops, a public appology, and a training bulletin.

As for donations, I could really use the help, but I have to see if I can get a lawyer to take the case on contingency (as in he makes a cut of what I make, or nothing at all). That's the only way I can afford to do this on my own, but I'll let you all know. This isn't about me and money, this is about making an example and forcing the local PDs to embrace open carry. I hope that this case will help to get a statewide training bulletin, and discourage local police from harassing us for exercizing our rights.
 
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Dave Workman

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expvideo wrote:
I'm more concerned about emotional damages from the case.  I am uncomfortable to use my second amendment rights and open carry, and I'm affraid of police officers.  Not to mention the fact that I was publicly humiliated.

Trust me, if they want to settle it will involve a large chunk of change, a few fired cops, a public appology, and a training bulletin.
Click to expand...



Get set for a disappointment. Nobody is going to get fired for this. You most likely will not get a public apology for this, either.
 
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expvideo

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Dave Workman wrote:
expvideo wrote:
I'm more concerned about emotional damages from the case. I am uncomfortable to use my second amendment rights and open carry, and I'm affraid of police officers. Not to mention the fact that I was publicly humiliated.

Trust me, if they want to settle it will involve a large chunk of change, a few fired cops, a public appology, and a training bulletin.
Click to expand...



Get set for a disappointment. Nobody is going to get fired for this. You most likely will not get a public apology for this, either.
Click to expand...
I agree. I'm not getting my hopes up on a settlement, but if they want to settle, those are my terms. I know it's more than I expectthey willagree to, and that's the idea. I'm not going to give them an easy way out of this. It's either a large settlement and hopefully news coverage, or they can meet my terms. I'm not on their side in this, so I'm not going to be a teddy bear about this.

These are the consequences of disregarding civil rights, they are supposed to be severe.
 
4

44Brent

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A couple of points I would like to make:
  1. The PD is playing with other peoples' money (insurers or taxpayers), and they will find it much easer to cut a check than issue an apology.
  2. When lawyers take cases on contingency, it does generally not mean that there is no cost to you. It means that they waive their own fees, but that you are responsible for other fees such as hiring court reporters to create transcriptions of depositions, paying filing fees, paying for transportation costs of witnesses, etc. This can easily add up to a serious amount of money. Therefore, you need to get ready to start accepting donations unless you already have a couple thousand budgeted out of your own pocket.

    I've got some skin in this game because I don't want to have to go through this kind of abuse from an out-of-control PD. I'm not making a donation out of the goodness of my heart, but because your case is a way to stop this from happening to myself.
If the initial donations aren't sufficient to pay your expenses, then consider selling "shares" in the lawsuit as an investment, and pay investors a portion of the winnings based on their proportion of the contribution.
 
O

openryan

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expvideo wrote:
BB62 wrote:
An unlawful detention by the officers, and a "forced" picture and signature?

Heck no, I would not have signed anything. Let them arrest me (which they could not have done).

Seems to me we OCers need to have our playbook down pat before OCing.
Click to expand...

The picture and signature were for the trespass from the mall. I am not allowed there for a year. I had the playbook "down pat", so let's not start acting like I didn't handle this well. I'm not in jail and I'm looking forward to legal action against the department, how did I not follow the playbook?



OpenRyan wrote:

Yes, I am not understanding how they 'forced' you to sign the papers.

From how I understood the post, was it the mall security that forced you to sign papers? -- If so, if you refused to have signed the papers, there was not anything the police could have done about it. Sure they could have arrested you for it (unlawfully), and it would have made an even stronger case :)!!
Click to expand...
The case is strong enough as it is. I don't care about being trespassed from a mall that I will no longer be patronizing anyway (I don't spend money at gun-free victim zones).

I'm more concerned about emotional damages from the case. I am uncomfortable to use my second amendment rights and open carry, and I'm affraid of police officers. Not to mention the fact that I was publicly humiliated.

Trust me, if they want to settle it will involve a large chunk of change, a few fired cops, a public appology, and a training bulletin.

As for donations, I could really use the help, but I have to see if I can get a lawyer to take the case on contingency (as in he makes a cut of what I make, or nothing at all). That's the only way I can afford to do this on my own, but I'll let you all know. This isn't about me and money, this is about making an example and forcing the local PDs to embrace open carry. I hope that this case will help to get a statewide training bulletin, and discourage local police from harassing us for exercizing our rights.
Click to expand...

I am still having a hard time understanding whose papers these were and how you were forced to sign them.
 
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JSK333

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My guess is that they were the mall's. Sounds like my experience here in Cincy. They use them as a way to record who you are in case you come back so that they can prove that they told you not to come back and therefore charge you with trespassing.

In my case too the LEOs made it sound like I had no choice but to fill it out/sign it. Maybe it's like a written form of a verbal request not to return? In my case, it was voided after I talked to the GM of the Mall, but I think they still have a copy there...

I wonder if there are any lawyers/LEOs on here from WA that know how the trespassing laws work there.
 
Mainsail

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Has anyone given any thought to compiling a list of stores in the mall so that we can start writing letters? It was, after all, the mall who likely initiated this whole mess, and the mall is comprised of individual stores that may not want to be associated with this sort of police behavior. I know the mall proper is owned by a corporation and they lease the space to the individual stores, but uproar of complaints from the store managers/owners might cause them to rethink their entire policy.
 
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IdahoCorsair

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I don't think I've seen this on this thread so,

IMMEDIATELY get a copy of their audio recordings!!!! They have a convenient way of "disappearing" or getting deleted in situtations like this.
Go to the local PD and demand (politely) the audio recordings from officers a, b, and c from x time to y time. This is evidence you'll surely need.

Do it soon, or it may be "deleted." This evidence will help your case.
 
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Drewesque

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I'm no lawyer or LEO, but I do work a job in which I've served trespass notices, and I can tell you that they actually shouldn't have FORCED you to sign. As long as you have been served the notice, witnesses can sign to that effect.

On the other hand, the signature on it merely affirms the fact that you were issued notice of being officially trespassed from the premises. If you come back, you can be arrested for trespassing (whether you signed or not), as there is proof that you were clearly made aware that you were not to return.

The trespass notice only creates a bit of a paper trail, like any other document you might be served. It's harmless to sign, since the signature only means you have seen the notice (unless there is some weird clause they've managed to sneak into their notice, which I doubt).
 
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