View Poll Results: Will you show an ID to an LEO if he/she stops you for OC?

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  • I'll volunteer it, without the LEO asking.

    5 5.00%
  • I'll show it but only if he asks for it.

    16 16.00%
  • I'll think about it and decide as the encounter proceeds.

    21 21.00%
  • I'll give him a photocopy of it so he cannot hold my ID hostage.

    1 1.00%
  • I will refuse to show him my ID unless it is specifically required by statute.

    19 19.00%
  • I will not show him my CC permit if I'm OCing.

    13 13.00%
  • I'll make him acknowledge that I don't have to give it to him--then I will give him the ID.

    4 4.00%
  • I will not show him any ID unless he threatens me with arrest--then I will.

    5 5.00%
  • I will just give him my first name.

    4 4.00%
  • I'll give him my full name--but not my ID.

    12 12.00%
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Thread: Will You Show Your ID If You Get Stopped For OCing?

  1. #1
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    *****You can choose as many answers as you wish.*****


    People have different opinions on showing ID to LEO when stopped for a "consensual" encounter or when the LEO is investigating a complaint or call.

    Three recent cases provide a nice sample of LE reactions to "man with a gun" call outcomes. One (out of several) interesting aspects is how the person stopped handled the "Let me see your ID" command.Or the personjust offered up an ID.

    These 3 cases were:

    1. unrequited--confronted in a B&N store by APD.

    2. psmartin--confronted by VBPD while on a bike ride.

    3. expvideo--confronted by TPD at a shopping mall.



    All threeposted detailed accounts of their stops here, including transcripts or descriptions of their verbal exchange with the officers. Here they are:

    1.

    Sgt. Mucci: "Why do you have a gun then?"

    me: "Personal self-defense."

    Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, and I'm going to have to see your concealed permit if you have one as well."

    I then noticed that there was another officer behind me, and I replied, "Is there a problem? I'm open carrying so I don't need a concealed carry permit, and I've open carried here many times before, what's the problem?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, we'll talk about this outside."

    I asked, "Am I being arrested officer?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "No, you'd be in cuffs by now."

    I asked, "Am I being detained officer?"

    Sgt. Mucci: "No, but if you don't come with us, there'll be something very bad."

    ...I stood up and said, "If I'm not being detained I'll talk with you guys outside."

    ....
    Once outside, Sgt. Terri Mucci asked me, "Why do you have a gun?"

    me:"Like I said, personal self-defense."

    Sgt. Mucci: "Can I have your ID?"

    me:"No. I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion."

    Sgt. Mucci: "What's your name?"

    me:"I'm Chris, what's your name?"

    no reply...

    Sgt. Mucci: "What's your last name?"

    me:"I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion. I'm Chris."

    Sgt. Mucci: "I don't know what your problem is, or what agenda you're pushing, but there are dozens of kids, and this is a playground." [continued]


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3671.html


    2.

    VBPD: I noticed you were armed. Are you are security guard?
    ME: No, Just John Q Public.
    VBPD: To carry that concealed requires a permit, but I see you're not concealing
    ME: I have my Virgina permit (turned towards the officer as I reached into my front pocket.. -- displayed it, he looked & handed it right back)
    VBPD: The resort area is very safe, what you're doing IS LEGAL, but really not advisable. (motioned to see my wallet again, I gave it back and he used his flashlight to look at the address on the CHP, but didn't ever look at my [highlight= #ffff88]VA DL, he then gave back my wallet.. all in the timespan of 15 seconds or less)
    VBPD: What brings you to Virginia [highlight= #88ffff]Beach
    ME: Just vacationing for a few days, I'm working off the pizza dinner as we speak.
    VBPD: Again, you're perfectly legal, it's not advisable, you might want to conceal as you have a permit.
    ME: True, although biking concealed isn't too comfortable. (at that point I put my water bottle back on the bike and prepared to depart)
    VBPD: Make sure youkeep both hands visible if you encounter any more of us, and carry isn't allowed in any ABC establishments.
    ME: Of Course, Open Carry required.
    VBPD: (waved/departing guesture)
    ME: Take care.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3699.html

    3. As we were walking into the parking garage, two Tukwila Police Department officers (badge numbers 160 and 168) yelled at me “Hey, stop. Put your hands behind your head”. I complied and asked what the problem was. I remained polite and professional throughout our encounter and never raised my voice. 168 said “You’re carrying a visible gun with no badge”. I told him that it was legal and within my rights. He said I had to conceal it and that I had no right to open carry.

    He asked for my concealed weapon permit. I asked him if I was being detained. He said no. I asked “Am I free to leave?” He got angry and said “NO!” I said “then am I being detained?” He said yes, I was being detained for investigation of a concealed weapons permit.

    I started to fish my permit out of my wallet, and he could plainly see it. Second thinking the actions that were being taken against me and the unconstitutionality of their actions, I returned the permit to my wallet without giving it to them and told them that I do not have to show them a permit. I was firm but polite. I let them know that I only had to show them a permit if I was concealing a gun. 160 told me that I was wrong and I had to have a permit to carry no matter what. I politely refused to show them my permit and 168 grabbed my arm, forcefully twisting it behind my back. Fearing for my safety, I said “Can I just give you my id?” 168 let go of my arm and let me get my Drivers License. They continued running my license and at this time 171 arrived. I asked if I was being detained, and he said that I was.


    At this point a mall security guard had joined in on the argument. He was reading off of the back of his permit and read “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol.” This is the only point of the conversation that I said anything disrespectful. I said, “finish the sentence, *******.” This was rude of me, and the officers responded as such yelling in my face, 171 coming within a centimeter of touching noses with me. I feared again for my safety. The reason I told the security guard to finish the sentence was that the whole sentence says “Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license[/b] in his or her possession at all times that he or she is required by law...” the sentence did not say that I had to conceal the pistol, as the guard had stated.

    Another security guard told me that it was illegal to carry in the mall. I told him that it may be against his mall policy, but it is not illegal. He said that the ruled was posted at all entrances to the mall. I told him that we entered through Sears, and didn’t see a sign. He confirmed that there was no sign at that entrance.

    I asked 171 if I was free to go. He said no, so I asked why. He said that I was being detained for a Tukwila law that says I can’t open carry. I told him that there was state preemption and Tukwila gun laws are not enforceable.[continued]


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/3696.html



    The legality of OCing in each of these three incidents is not in question. It's legal. No one can successfully dispute that upon analysis.

    But the 3 outcomes were different:1 kinda bad (unrequited), 1 kinda bad (expvideo), and 1 pretty OK (psmartin).

    I'm mulling over the possibility that the ID issue and question (Let me see your ID/CHP/etc.) and how it was handledby the stoppee might have had a bearing on the outcomes. You might think so, too. So here, shown below,are the transcripts/detailings of the verbal part of the 3encounters.

    It should help raise the question, though: What would you do if you got stopped for OC and the LEO asked for an ID (DL, CHP, etc.) where you are not required by statute to produce it for him/her?

    Do you give it up readily? Do you proactively produce the ID? Do you make it difficult? Do you decline? Do you decline even if you are going to the graybar hotel?

    Pick as many of the poll's choices as you think apply. Post any other ideas you might have on what you'd do if you find yourself in a situation similar to unrequited, psmartin, Chet S.

    *****You can choose as many answers as you wish.*****






  2. #2
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    For me, #5, 6 & 10.
    If I'm driving than 5. If he wants LTCF, not if I an OC'ing where LTCF is not required. and 10 if on fot in regards to Driv. Lic. I will give him my business card and ask for same.
    .
    They can forcibly search me for my ID if they want. More for me to use against them. I'll be audio taping them or video)


  3. #3
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    Unless I'm being arrested unlawfully, there's no reason why my ID should ever be in their hands. I don't want my name being circled around their lockerrooms, or on a unofficial OC harrass list. There's NO REASON for them to have it if I've done nothing wrong. If I am arrested unlawfully, I will let them take my ID and confirm that I've got no outstanding warrants, etc. and it will be just one more thing they did wrong including demanding my ID in the first place.

    My right to privacy is just as important to me as my right to self-defense.
    -Unrequited

  4. #4
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    As for #4, Hank, I think repros of your license may be illegal in VA (from http://fairfaxcountyprivacycouncil.org/):

    Virginia Driver’s License Photocopy Prohibition[/b]

    [/b]

    “VA Code § 46.2-346. Unlawful acts enumerated. A. No person shall: …4. Reproduce by photograph or otherwise, any driver's license, temporary driver's permit, or learner's permit issued by the Department without obtaining prior written consent of the Department;”[/b]

    Source: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-346[/b]

    [/b]

    “VA Code § 46.2-350. Penalty for violation. Notwithstanding § 46.2-113, except as otherwise provided any violation of any provision of this chapter not declared to be a felony shall constitute a Class 2 misdemeanor.”[/b]

    Source: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-350 [/b]

    [/b]

    [/b]


    Federal ID Photocopy Prohibition[/b]


    “18 USC 701. Official badges, identification cards, other insigniahttp://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/701.html



  5. #5
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    As for #4, Hank, I think repros of your license may be illegal in VA (from http://fairfaxcountyprivacycouncil.org/):

    Virginia Driver’s License Photocopy Prohibition

    You missed: " ...with the intent to commit an illegal act"

    Looks legal to me.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-346

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    You forgot one answer, "I don't have any ID." What is this fascination or fetish with having a piece of paper.

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    GaGunOwner wrote:
    Unfortunately, I'm forced to show my carry license.

    I'm my state, Georgia, to open carry you must have the carry license (GFL).
    Just because you have to have a license doesn't mean that the officer has RS to ask to see it. As MP has pointed out many times before, the officer should have no articulatable suspicion if you're not doing anything wrong.

  8. #8
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    How about not carry'ing your DL with you at all. Open Carry and ride your bike or walk and when they stop you just tell them you have no ID. I would love to see what their reaction is to you not having a DL on your person. In ohio you don't have to carry it at all, not even while driving.

  9. #9
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    2,7,10 for me -- a copy might not be a bad idea (copy of the ID) But as far as Indiana is concerned they have quite a few security features that would not transfer onto a copy, thus making it invalid.

    So as a copy may be useful if you are trying to be cooperative while you are not required to give it, if you were required to give it and only provided a copy, I could see problems ahead, if the LEO really wanted to get picky.

  10. #10
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    I've only ever been questioned about my guns during traffic stops, so I've been obliged to show ID (you have to have your license on your person while operating a motor vehicle in Ohio, and you'll get charged if you fail to produce it upon request at a traffic stop), so this is all moot in practice for me. However, I know of so many guys around here with outstanding wants/warrants that I don't have a problem showing ID on request under other circumstances, if it will expedite a stop.

    Also, it's been my experience that if you make some outward, apparent effort at being conciliatory, they tend to be more civil. You can invoke your rights against being searched or whatever, but it goes over better if they're satisfied thatyou're not a fugitive, say. It's just a practical matter for me. I never "waive" any rights and I've said "no" to pissed-off cops before, but I'm still breathing fresh air for all that. I haven't had to wake my lawyer up yet with a call from jail.

    Another consideration: I wear my holster near my pocket with my wallet in it, so I always wait for them to ask for ID and then announce that I'm reaching for my wallet because of the proximity of my holster. I don't propose getting shot for complying with police instructions.

    -ljp

    c.f. pertinent Ohio statute: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29

    I wonder why it specifies being questioned in a public place though...




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    Or here is another idea.

    It can be modified for your states laws. And could serve as the 'business' card some have suggested.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    "If you get to the point where you are writing a summons or making an arrest, I'll identify myself to you, Officer."

    This instantly tells him you are not an average hassle-ee, and that you know what his realminimum requirements are, such as they are, as opposed to his desires--to check for a record and warrants.

    And, you are contributing a solution, not just stopping his tactic dead in the water.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  13. #13
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    Citizen wrote:
    "If you get to the point where you are writing a summons or making an arrest, I'll identify myself to you, Officer."

    This instantly tells him you are not an average hassle-ee, and that you know what his realminimum requirements are, such as they are, as opposed to his desires--to check for a record and warrants.

    And, you are contributing a solution, not just stopping his tactic dead in the water.
    If you said that verbatim, you will probably come off as a smart ass.

    Secondly, when you may get a break for being cooperative, I think you are welcoming a ticket or a free ride in a police car here.

    Basically, you are saying 'no' unless he is going to do something unfavorable to you.

    Unless the officer is new, and really doesn't know what he is doing, I don't see you getting away with this.



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    How is that welcoming a ticket or free ride if you are within your legal rights and have done no crime?

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    If you tell the officer you will only give ID if they are going to give you a summons or arrest you--I can see a lot of them picking **** over nothing to get you to fork over an ID -- as illegitimate as their grounds might be, if you play this card I can see trouble.

    Sure it may work with reasonable leo's, but I have seen a lot of people like this in authority positions that get very flustered when they don't get what they want.

    If you do try it -- I hope it works out well for you.

    Just personally, I wouldn't do it.

    I am not saying either is right or wrong for anyone else, although I guess in a way I did...

    It is just what I would choose.


  16. #16
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    OpenRyan

    Re-check the quote, and then re-check the premise of the stop.

    I (not anybody else) have been stopped for OC. In that I am law-abiding, including driving, I know there are only a very few reasons that I can be legitimately stopped by a police officer, OC or no OC. I'm guessing it will become apparent very early in the stop whether it is oneofthose few legitimatepossibilities. With that said, the odds are very good that it is an illegal non-consensual encounter. (If it was a consensual encounter it wouldn't matter what I told him, because I'd be free to go.) Illegal encounter = Citizen is going to bevery dangerous to his personnel file.

    Say the quote out loud to yourself very politely, almost friendly.It'll sound different than it reads on the screen. I'll re-word it to give better the sense, "Yes, Officer, I'll cooperate. I'll gladly identify myself to you when we reach the point where it becomestruly essential, for example whenwriting a summons or arrest. I know that you need to know who I am in order to writea summons or make an arrest." (Not entirely literally true; but, hey, I'm only telling white lie fibs to make them feel better and smooth over hard feelings that would arise with an in-your-face refusal.They're the ones walking on the Constitution.)

    If he has two brain cells, he'll start to realize real quick that he needs to get "legal" about this particular encounter. If he misses it, I'll give him a few more hints. If he misses those, well, that is what FOIA's, complaints, and lawyers are for.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  17. #17
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    3, 5, 6, and 9.

    Withmany LEO encounters under my belt, it really all depends on the LEO's demeanor and tone.

    If they come off very professional and in a calm (not demanding) voice, I'll answer questions and provide ID. However if I hear "let me see your hands" with a gun pointed at me, you can bet I'll either be a smart ass and/or just not answer anything.

    Everytime that I have had handcuffs placed on me, they searched me for ID. The solution is simple, don't carry ID with you unless you're CC or going somewhere you need it. If you remain silent and don't have any ID, what can they charge you with?

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    kblazk wrote:
    How about not carry'ing your DL with you at all. Open Carry and ride your bike or walk and when they stop you just tell them you have no ID. I would love to see what their reaction is to you not having a DL on your person. In ohio you don't have to carry it at all, not even while driving.

    I'm afraid you do: ORC 4507.35 Duty to display license or furnish satisfactory proof of license upon demand.

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/4507.35

    I suppose that "satisfactory proof" might consist of a photocopy or just being able to recite your DL number, but they can charge you for not providing the information in whatever form.

    -ljp


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    Only #3 for me. If the LEO is polite, and has a good explanation, then I might just find no good reason to not show him my id. If he is just hassling me, then he is definatly going to have to work cut out for him if he realy wants to see it.

    All this stems from my personal policyof only being as hard to get along with as the person I am dealing with. This applies to everyone btw, not just authority figures.

  20. #20
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    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Ive tried looking on the net, but cant find any info.

    Does anyone know of you have to show your ID to LEO's upon the LEO's request in Pennsylvania and West Virginia?

    Thanks!
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Sig229 wrote:
    Ive tried looking on the net, but cant find any info.

    Does anyone know of you have to show your ID to LEO's upon the LEO's request in Pennsylvania and West Virginia?

    Thanks!
    I am not sure under what conditions you are talking about but there is no state wherein you have to produce identification solely because it is requested by a LEO.

    Are you talking about while driving, OC'ing, CC'ing, during a Terry Stop? If so, provide the details for a detailed answer from this illustrious forum.

  23. #23
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    apjonas wrote:
    Sig229 wrote:
    Ive tried looking on the net, but cant find any info.

    Does anyone know of you have to show your ID to LEO's upon the LEO's request in Pennsylvania and West Virginia?

    Thanks!
    I am not sure under what conditions you are talking about but there is no state wherein you have to produce identification solely because it is requested by a LEO.

    Are you talking about while driving, OC'ing, CC'ing, during a Terry Stop? If so, provide the details for a detailed answer from this illustrious forum.
    Well, I figuired that since this topic was on "Showing a LEO your ID while OC'ing" it was pretty clear as to why I was asking.
    But true, I should have clarified.

    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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    Are you talking about while driving, OC'ing, CC'ing, during a Terry Stop? If so, provide the details for a detailed answer from this illustrious forum.
    Well, I figuired that since this topic was on "Showing a LEO your ID while OC'ing" it was pretty clear as to why I was asking.
    But true, I should have clarified.

    Ok, but in a vehicle, on foot, what state, what location? Are you asking if it required or merely desirable?

    I will interpret you question as you are OC'ing in a location where it unquestionably permitted, without a license, on foot, during a consensual encounter and you are clearly over the minimum age (if any) and have no indication that the LEO is a sociopath. Answer - No, of course not. Smile (optional) and continue on your way. The naked act of OC does not give rise toPC. Convenient rule of thumb - substitute " a black man in dreadlocks (BMID)" for "a person open carrying (APOC)" - in the question of choice. The answers should be the same. Example:

    Old blue-haired lady seesAPOCsimply walking down the street. She is truly frightened because she has never seen APOCin her neighborhood and calls 911. If the 911 fails to screen properly (nothing wrong with APOC) and the LEO gets the truth from the old girl (simply APOC) - no reason to investigate. Since there is no PC any encounter is consensual. Being APOC is as legal as being a BMID. LEO telling APOC thathe "frightens people" is as out of line and should result in discipline as if he told the BMID that his presence did likewise. It is hard for people to get their heads around how these two situations are essentially no different. If the race angle is too "heavy" for you, substitute "a person wearing a yarmulke" or wearing tattered clothing or with spiky pink hair or (yeech) facial piercings or a "Romney 2008" t-shirt or maybe all of these.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Sig229's Avatar
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    apjonas wrote:
    Are you talking about while driving, OC'ing, CC'ing, during a Terry Stop? If so, provide the details for a detailed answer from this illustrious forum.
    Well, I figuired that since this topic was on "Showing a LEO your ID while OC'ing" it was pretty clear as to why I was asking.
    But true, I should have clarified.

    Ok, but in a vehicle, on foot, what state, what location? Are you asking if it required or merely desirable?

    I will interpret you question as you are OC'ing in a location where it unquestionably permitted, without a license, on foot, during a consensual encounter and you are clearly over the minimum age (if any) and have no indication that the LEO is a sociopath. Answer - No, of course not. Smile (optional) and continue on your way. The naked act of OC does not give rise toPC. Convenient rule of thumb - substitute " a black man in dreadlocks (BMID)" for "a person open carrying (APOC)" - in the question of choice. The answers should be the same. Example:

    Old blue-haired lady seesAPOCsimply walking down the street. She is truly frightened because she has never seen APOCin her neighborhood and calls 911. If the 911 fails to screen properly (nothing wrong with APOC) and the LEO gets the truth from the old girl (simply APOC) - no reason to investigate. Since there is no PC any encounter is consensual. Being APOC is as legal as being a BMID. LEO telling APOC thathe "frightens people" is as out of line and should result in discipline as if he told the BMID that his presence did likewise. It is hard for people to get their heads around how these two situations are essentially no different. If the race angle is too "heavy" for you, substitute "a person wearing a yarmulke" or wearing tattered clothing or with spiky pink hair or (yeech) facial piercings or a "Romney 2008" t-shirt or maybe all of these.
    I apreciate it.
    Yeah I meant on foot and maybe in a department strore and such.
    Im not black or arab and no pink hair, so I guess I should be fine.
    "Let your gun be your constant companion during your walks" ~Thomas Jefferson

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