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Thread: OC without retention -- Irresponsible?

  1. #1
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    To preface... I am at work and am procrastinating, dreaming of firearms and hunting...

    I got to wondering, do ya'll feel that openly carrying a firearm without at least a thumb break holster is irresponsible or reckless? Don't get me wrong, I am in the camp that it is your right to carry a firearm any way you see put and I'm not one to say that you can or can't regarding which method you choose.

    However, I think if every person thought to OC with a retention holster, alot of peoples gun-grab arguments against OC wouldn't apply nearly as well.

    Not to mention, Safariland dutybelt holsters like the Raptor are simply amazing and well built. The chances of someone wrestling your firearm away from you are dampened extremely, what with the release buttons and decoy-straps.

    Just a workday wonderment...

    Molon labe

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    I OC using a SERPA retention holster 90% of the time, for the reasons you pointed out. However, if I am going to be spending alot of time ina vehicle, or if I will be in a more 'gun-friendly' or low exposureenvironment (gun show, visiting friends/family, around the house, etc...) I'll wear my open-top leather. It's just more comfortable.

    I don't feel any less secure like this, since it does ride high enough for me to easily clamp down on the gun with my elbow, and it is easy to conceal if the situation warrants discretion.

    Retention is mostly awareness and avoidance... if a BG gest close enough to you to grasp you gun, you have greater problems than just a strap or lock can solve.

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    I submit that these type holsters are for CC only!!!

    I have one and would NEVER EVER OC with it. It just makes it far too easy to yank it out from behind by all.

    With the thumb break... You have to get in there a little more to break the snap and then pull up. There is a push down action and then pull back. This will give the owner a quick notice that someone is there and he can have a split second longer to react.

    Having the open top to me balances out the time to draw since in CC mode you have to sweep the coat or shirt out of the way.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I submit that these type holsters are for CC only!!!

    I have one and would NEVER EVER OC with it. It just makes it far too easy to yank it out from behind by all.

    With the thumb break... You have to get in there a little more to break the snap and then pull up. There is a push down action and then pull back. This will give the owner a quick notice that someone is there and he can have a split second longer to react.

    Having the open top to me balances out the time to draw since in CC mode you have to sweep the coat or shirt out of the way.
    Just for clarification, LEO... you are referring to open-top, passive retention holsters for CC only?

  5. #5
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    I wouldn't deem it irresponsible.

    I would say it is irresponsible of the people that would grab the gun from you. I do not care how fast you are with a serpa or whatever, I will still be faster with my fobus no retention. And yes that does leave me a little bit more prone to gun grabs, but I think if you are attentive enough, you shouldnt have a problem. If someone comes up to you with a firearm in your face off gaurd, they will get your gun if you have it ziptied to your belt....

    As others have point out, my holster as well comes up high enough that I can use my elbow to get leverage on it, if I need to sign something, or bend over, or hell, if I am just tired and want an arm rest !

    I think some people thought legitimately believe that nobody will confront them because they have a firearm, but the truth is that many people are bold enough to do this, and if you let your guard down because of the false security, and you don't have retention, by the time you notice someone pulling on it, it will be gone.



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    openryan wrote:
    I wouldn't deem it irresponsible.

    I would say it is irresponsible of the people that would grab the gun from you. I do not care how fast you are with a serpa or whatever, I will still be faster with my fobus no retention. And yes that does leave me a little bit more prone to gun grabs, but I think if you are attentive enough, you shouldnt have a problem. If someone comes up to you with a firearm in your face off gaurd, they will get your gun if you have it ziptied to your belt....

    As others have point out, my holster as well comes up high enough that I can use my elbow to get leverage on it, if I need to sign something, or bend over, or hell, if I am just tired and want an arm rest !

    I think some people thought legitimately believe that nobody will confront them because they have a firearm, but the truth is that many people are bold enough to do this, and if you let your guard down because of the false security, and you don't have retention, by the time you notice someone pulling on it, it will be gone.

    +1openryan. I OC with a fobus holster on a daily basis. Maybe when Blackhawk makes a holster for a Ruger I'll pick up one of those, but I am happy with the Fobus holster for now.

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    I also OC with a fobus holster everyday. I have trouble finding a niceholster with retention for my P99 -- doesn't seem like BlackHawk makesa CQC for it.

    I just want to spur some discussion.:P

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    Serpa and other holsters of the like -- definately do have their merits, such as police, or anyone with a lot of contact with people. Police who may get into an encounter with a citizen are definately better off with a retention holster, as the gun is more prone to being grabbed, or falling out during a scuffle.

    I wouldn't say either one is better, although they do have certain advantages to each, they can both be used responsibly.

    One advantage I can think of with a no retention holster would be if you are pinned and only had one arm to reach around, it would definately be easier to access. But if you are ocing with it, chances are they already know the firearm is there...



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    molonlabetn wrote:
    snip.....

    Retention is mostly awareness and avoidance... if a BG gest close enough to you to grasp you gun, you have greater problems than just a strap or lock can solve.
    As always... you should be aware what is around you.

    What about when your standing in line at a business and there will be people behind you and walking around? You cannot avoid everyone there.

    People are going to be in very close proximity to you. Are you going to be hyper aware and keep looking behind you every three seconds?

    Not that people get their guns snatched that often... An open top holster with no other retention mechanism can be an inviting target to someone eyeing up your gun.

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    From an activist standpoint, I feel as though if one did suffer a gun-grab and the holster didn't have retention, it would be extremely bad for OCers everywhere. I can just see the liberal media spinning it now... "Reckless gun-toter losesgun to criminal" which in turn could lead to reactive legislation.

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    I had my wife try to grab my gun from my holster before I used the fobus to OC, and it was not as easy as it might seem. It was discussed in another thread awhile back, but I have not been able to find a link. Anyway, I just stood there and let her try, and it still took awhile to get it. If I would have resisted, there would be no way she could have gotten it. The holster grabs on to the gun better than one would think. And combined with me fighting, or putting my elbow over the gun, I feel confident about being able to retain my firearm. Just my 2 cents

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    I exclusively OC with a Serpa holster with my M&P for this very reason.

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    dngreer wrote:
    I had my wife try to grab my gun from my holster before I used the fobus to OC, and it was not as easy as it might seem. It was discussed in another thread awhile back, but I have not been able to find a link. Anyway, I just stood there and let her try, and it still took awhile to get it. If I would have resisted, there would be no way she could have gotten it. The holster grabs on to the gun better than one would think. And combined with me fighting, or putting my elbow over the gun, I feel confident about being able to retain my firearm. Just my 2 cents
    Hey Dngreer, did you notice that as the more you draw with the Fobus, the less retention it has? I practice drawing weekly and I notice that my Fobus loses more and more retention the more I do it. When I first got it, you could barely get the firearm out at a straight arc, let alone from an angle. Now, I feel that i can wiggle it out no problem.

    Also, aware of any way to tighten it up?

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    openryanwrote:

    "I do not care how fast you are with a serpa or whatever, I will still be faster with my fobus no retention."

    Kind of bold claim isn't it? Any evidence to substantiate your claim?

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    steveforopen wrote:
    dngreer wrote:
    I had my wife try to grab my gun from my holster before I used the fobus to OC, and it was not as easy as it might seem. It was discussed in another thread awhile back, but I have not been able to find a link. Anyway, I just stood there and let her try, and it still took awhile to get it. If I would have resisted, there would be no way she could have gotten it. The holster grabs on to the gun better than one would think. And combined with me fighting, or putting my elbow over the gun, I feel confident about being able to retain my firearm. Just my 2 cents
    Hey Dngreer, did you notice that as the more you draw with the Fobus, the less retention it has? I practice drawing weekly and I notice that my Fobus loses more and more retention the more I do it. When I first got it, you could barely get the firearm out at a straight arc, let alone from an angle. Now, I feel that i can wiggle it out no problem.

    Also, aware of any way to tighten it up?
    I haven't had that issue. I would check to make sure the rivets holding it together to make sure they are still secure. My holster has loosened up some, but I just push the Ruger deeper into the holster, and it actually seems like a better fit after some use. The only complaint I have is the rub marks it leaves on the gun. It has rubbed off the finish in at least two places. :XMaybe I should look a little harder for a better holster... I still can't draw at an angle. Straight out is the only wayI candraw, unless you spend some time wiggling the gun to loosen the grip.

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    bayboy42 wrote:
    openryanwrote:

    "I do not care how fast you are with a serpa or whatever, I will still be faster with my fobus no retention."

    Kind of bold claim isn't it? Any evidence to substantiate your claim?
    Oh no! I see an old west showdown coming soon! Millions will die! The anti gun people were right!!! Run away....run away.... Ok, I'm done with my sarcasm.

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    dngreer wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    openryanwrote:

    "I do not care how fast you are with a serpa or whatever, I will still be faster with my fobus no retention."

    Kind of bold claim isn't it? Any evidence to substantiate your claim?
    Oh no! I see an old west showdown coming soon! Millions will die! The anti gun people were right!!! Run away....run away.... Ok, I'm done with my sarcasm.
    Lets get a couple airsoft pistols and have a draw??

    The claim may be bold, but I steadfastly believe that if you have two people draw and fire at the same time, the person with less retention wins, assuming they can aim properly.



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    openryan wrote:
    The claim may be bold, but I steadfastly believe that if you have two people draw and fire at the same time, the person with less retention wins, assuming they can aim properly.

    Try one. I think you'll find it is equally as fast.

  19. #19
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    I carry a Galco, Royal Guard, It's an open top IWB. It has much better retension than you might think for an open top. I have had family members try to romove it from me from behind, It hasn't happend yet. The firearm must be lifted "straight up" for it to clear leather. For someone to "gun grab" out of that holster is highly unlikely.

    The holster also has a tension adjustment. It's kinda pricey,but I've had it for a few years now and really love it.

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    steveforopen wrote:
    From an activist standpoint, I feel as though if one did suffer a gun-grab and the holster didn't have retention, it would be extremely bad for OCers everywhere. I can just see the liberal media spinning it now... "Reckless gun-toter losesgun to criminal" which in turn could lead to reactive legislation.
    This is an incredibly good point. I can DEFINITELY see the politicians having a field day with something like this.

    I, for one, use a Galco Model 59 paddle holster with a thumb snap when I OC. I do not open carry without at least a minimal level of retention.

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    BTW, do you guys feel that a holster like this that leaves the ENTIRE trigger guard of a revolver exposed is dangerous? I, for one, would not carry with a holster like this. And yes, I do realize that the thumb break could potentially render the hammer useless, precluding it from firing, but imagine a snap that had a lot of use . . .




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    steveforopen wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I submit that these type holsters are for CC only!!!

    I have one and would NEVER EVER OC with it. It just makes it far too easy to yank it out from behind by all.

    With the thumb break... You have to get in there a little more to break the snap and then pull up. There is a push down action and then pull back. This will give the owner a quick notice that someone is there and he can have a split second longer to react.

    Having the open top to me balances out the time to draw since in CC mode you have to sweep the coat or shirt out of the way.
    Just for clarification, LEO... you are referring to open-top, passive retention holsters for CC only?
    Ya... no other locking features except holster friction.

    IMO.... this is for CC ONLY so that you can shave off a half second having to draw from under some clothing.



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    Personally I feel that Open Top holster would be better as a CC holster, due to the an easy "Gun Grab".

    However I found that the Open Top COC Serpa holster with its retention makes me feel much better when OCing.

    Do what YOU feel would help YOU out the best.

    But as LEO said "Be aware of your surroundings".

    I feel to tense and stressed out when I did OC with an Open Top holster, so I manufacturered a retention on the holster I did have at the time and felt a Little bit better.

    Just my .45

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    I was just watching Fox Reality TV wherethis guy punched the female officer several times in the face breaking it all up and knocking her out cold!

    Just prior to jumping back into his car... he pulled at the officer's gun but since it did not come out easily... left it behind.

    Keeping in mind he had time to get it if he really wanted it.. It was not easy enough and not worth his time.

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    I checked the Fobus website, and surprisingly, Fobus makes a paddleholster for my sidearm (the Hi Point C-9, the gun pictured in my avatar). I have read about the "passive retention" system used in Fobus paddle holsters. Can anyone explain what exactly passive retention is and if itmakes the holstersuitable for open carry? In the summer, my primary mode of carry is CC with a SmartCarry. However, for those days when I simply don't want to deal with the hassle of reaching inside my pants while sitting in order to draw, I want to havethis alternative available to me, provided that this so-called "passive retention system" is reliable. Any insight on it?

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