Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: Vehicle Laws

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    251

    Post imported post

    Since I'm lazy and spend all day interpreting USC I'll ask this...

    I was driving with my brother in-law with my gun in my OWB holster. He's familiar with OC versus CC and mentioned that he couldn't really see my gun when I was sitting in the driver's seat. I wear it about 4 o'clock, and between my body and the middle column you can't really see my gun at all.

    He then asked if that's then considered CC and the holder when then have to have a permit, so to remain OC you'd have to unholster the gun and put it on, say, the dash.

    Would it still be considered OC because I'd be required to make an overt action to draw it? How do most people handle driving when they OC?


  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    118

    Post imported post

    Now I was once told by a police officer, that the passenger is considered the "public" and if he can see it in plain sight from where he is sitting, the it's in plain sight. Now I don't know how much I would trust this, but it's what I was once told. I would wait to see someone more versed (such as a police officer) comment on this.

    -Muzz

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Centreville, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,761

    Post imported post

    IMHO this is one reason to have a CHP when you OC, so you don't have to worry about being wrong.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sterling, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    26

    Post imported post

    I called the VCDL a few months back about the issue and in the opinion of the gentleman answering the phones it was necessary to put your firearm on the middle console (if possible) or on the dash. I personally bought a no slip-pad for cellphones(couple dollars at walmart) and put my S&W on the dash on top of it. I have had no problems with it sliding around since.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Morgan, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,580

    Post imported post

    glock9emem wrote:
    I called the VCDL a few months back about the issue and in the opinion of the gentleman answering the phones it was necessary to put your firearm on the middle console (if possible) or on the dash. I personally bought a no slip-pad for cellphones(couple dollars at walmart) and put my S&W on the dash on top of it. I have had no problems with it sliding around since.
    I did the same ( no slip-pad I mean ), anda fewpeople driving by looked but it seemed nobody really cared.

    1girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.

    I was for sure expecting LEO coming up behind checking my SN. But what a disappointment

  6. #6
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,448

    Post imported post

    As I understand the issue, OC v CC is decided based on case law, a particularly crafty animal that routinely emits a slick substance when you try to grab it.

    As such, I believe case law says that the weapon must be visible from 3 sides, but also allows that the visibility is assumed from a non-seated position.

    Because...in a perfect hip holster-only world, 85% of all humans are right handed, therefore 85% of CCWers will most likely have their weapon in a position not visible to the officer at the driver's window.

    By the way, I've always been approached at the driver's window, but I see on the COP shows a lot of officers approaching on the passenger side. Is this the new, hip way to do a traffic stops?

    Most LEOs have the common sense to not arrest you for having the weapon clearly visible while seated in your car, however, some do not.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    118

    Post imported post

    Form what I understand, working in 911, some do the traffic stops on the passenger side to avoid getting hit by cars on the road, seen more than 1 video of an officer getting clipped by a car.

    -Muzz

  8. #8
    Regular Member VAopencarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    The 'Dena, Mаяуlaпd
    Posts
    2,147

    Post imported post

    Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

    Virginia Code considers it concealed if it is
    hidden from common observation
    Is it hidden from common observation? My guess is yes. If Officer Friendly approaches your drivers window he can't see your weapon. He could stick his head in your window and likely not see it. I would consider this 'hidden from common observation'. It doesn't matter where you put it, if it is observable.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308


    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    206

    Post imported post

    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    1girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.
    LOL. It's always great to add a little description in your posts.

    Do you drive with the gun on the "non slip" pad? 30 ounces (approx. loaded) isn't that heavy, until it's flying through the car at 100 mph and the 30 ounces is in the form of steel.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Ft. Belvoir/Alexandria, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    16

    Post imported post

    And being left-handed, and wearing it in a OWB holster, no one can see mine without sitcking his head into the driver's door-window and looking down.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    VAopencarry wrote:
    Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

    Virginia Code considers it concealed if it is
    hidden from common observation
    Is it hidden from common observation? My guess is yes. If Officer Friendly approaches your drivers window he can't see your weapon. He could stick his head in your window and likely not see it. I would consider this 'hidden from common observation'. It doesn't matter where you put it, if it is observable.

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    +1

    You have to actually make some overt act to actually hide it from view.

    If the LEO can approach from one side of the other and see it... IMO... your OK.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sterling, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    26

    Post imported post

    The no-slip pads are amazing. I have tested them out on a side road by my house braking very hard and locking up the tires(two o' clock in the morning no one around...no one in danger...with gun UNLOADED) and it didn't budge. Try them out it's worth the few dollar investment.

  13. #13
    State Researcher dng's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    1,290

    Post imported post

    glock9emem wrote:
    The no-slip pads are amazing. I have tested them out on a side road by my house braking very hard and locking up the tires(two o' clock in the morning no one around...no one in danger...with gun UNLOADED) and it didn't budge. Try them out it's worth the few dollar investment.
    I have to wonder about the effect of the sun beating down on the gun as it sits on the dash. I have no studies to prove it would damage it in any way, just wondering.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Morgan, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,580

    Post imported post

    ParaWarthog wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    1girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.
    LOL. It's always great to add a little description in your posts.

    Do you drive with the gun on the "non slip" pad? 30 ounces (approx. loaded) isn't that heavy, until it's flying through the car at 100 mph and the 30 ounces is in the form of steel.
    You are right. I'm trying to get a holster to drill stuck to the Dash, I think I will get a Serpa. It's a Good and Safe retention to not go anywhere.

    But for now the Anti-slip is Great.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    dngreer wrote:
    glock9emem wrote:
    The no-slip pads are amazing. I have tested them out on a side road by my house braking very hard and locking up the tires(two o' clock in the morning no one around...no one in danger...with gun UNLOADED) and it didn't budge. Try them out it's worth the few dollar investment.
    I have to wonder about the effect of the sun beating down on the gun as it sits on the dash. I have no studies to prove it would damage it in any way, just wondering.
    That will just heat up the metal and make it too hot to handle the slide.

    No other damage should occur.

  16. #16
    State Researcher dng's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    , , USA
    Posts
    1,290

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    dngreer wrote:
    glock9emem wrote:
    The no-slip pads are amazing. I have tested them out on a side road by my house braking very hard and locking up the tires(two o' clock in the morning no one around...no one in danger...with gun UNLOADED) and it didn't budge. Try them out it's worth the few dollar investment.
    I have to wonder about the effect of the sun beating down on the gun as it sits on the dash. I have no studies to prove it would damage it in any way, just wondering.
    That will just heat up the metal and make it too hot to handle the slide.

    No other damage should occur.
    Not even on "polymer"or whatever that plastic type material is?

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    dngreer wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    dngreer wrote:
    glock9emem wrote:
    The no-slip pads are amazing. I have tested them out on a side road by my house braking very hard and locking up the tires(two o' clock in the morning no one around...no one in danger...with gun UNLOADED) and it didn't budge. Try them out it's worth the few dollar investment.
    I have to wonder about the effect of the sun beating down on the gun as it sits on the dash. I have no studies to prove it would damage it in any way, just wondering.
    That will just heat up the metal and make it too hot to handle the slide.

    No other damage should occur.
    Not even on "polymer"or whatever that plastic type material is?
    I suspect it would take far greater heat to hit the melting point for that material. I know electronics that get real hot like power converters and that plastic holds its shape well.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Redmond, Washington, USA
    Posts
    618

    Post imported post

    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    ParaWarthog wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    1girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.
    LOL. It's always great to add a little description in your posts.

    Do you drive with the gun on the "non slip" pad? 30 ounces (approx. loaded) isn't that heavy, until it's flying through the car at 100 mph and the 30 ounces is in the form of steel.
    You are right. I'm trying to get a holster to drill stuck to the Dash, I think I will get a Serpa. It's a Good and Safe retention to not go anywhere.

    But for now the Anti-slip is Great.
    Wow, imagine this. You pull someone over for speeding. You approach from the drivers side. You see the occupant has his hands on the steering wheel and window open. You get closer to notice a handgun 5 inches away from his right hand on the dashboard. Oh MY would that cause my heart to skip a couple of beats.


    Personally I'd rather have it holstered on your hip OWB where you would have to do at least a couple of contortions to get at it. And also for *me* if you go out of the car and I could reasonably see it, then I would consider it being openly carried.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    gregma wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    ParaWarthog wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    1girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.
    LOL. It's always great to add a little description in your posts.

    Do you drive with the gun on the "non slip" pad? 30 ounces (approx. loaded) isn't that heavy, until it's flying through the car at 100 mph and the 30 ounces is in the form of steel.
    You are right. I'm trying to get a holster to drill stuck to the Dash, I think I will get a Serpa. It's a Good and Safe retention to not go anywhere.

    But for now the Anti-slip is Great.
    Wow, imagine this. You pull someone over for speeding. You approach from the drivers side. You see the occupant has his hands on the steering wheel and window open. You get closer to notice a handgun 5 inches away from his right hand on the dashboard. Oh MY would that cause my heart to skip a couple of beats.


    Personally I'd rather have it holstered on your hip OWB where you would have to do at least a couple of contortions to get at it. And also for *me* if you go out of the car and I could reasonably see it, then I would consider it being openly carried.
    If you place it on the dash during the traffic stop... place it with barrel facing forward and the right side down causingthe magazine well to be facing you. This makes it harder for you to grab and hold in your right hand.

    I recommend you NEVER get out of your car unless told to do so. You can also be ordered to stay inside the vehicle or you could get cuffed and there is a chance you will be charged with obstruction. This goes for passengers too.

    http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/june976.htm

    In the 1977 case of Mimms, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution allows a law enforcement officer who has made a lawful routine stop of a vehicle for a traffic offense to order the driver to exit the vehicle without requiring any additional factual justification.

    In Maryland v. Wilson, the U.S. Supreme Court gave law enforcement officers the automatic authority to order all occupants from a lawfully stopped vehicle. In doing so, it concluded that such a slight restraint on an individual's freedom of movement is permissible under the Constitution when balanced against the concern for officer safety. Perhaps this ruling will allow law enforcement officers like the two police officers in Wilmington, Ohio, to go home at the end of the day, not because of the lack of accuracy on the part of a passenger in firing a firearm, but rather because the Constitution permits officers to exercise reasonable control over the occupants of a vehicle that has been lawfully stopped.


  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Redmond, Washington, USA
    Posts
    618

    Post imported post

    LEO 229 wrote:
    gregma wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    ParaWarthog wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    1girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.
    LOL. It's always great to add a little description in your posts.

    Do you drive with the gun on the "non slip" pad? 30 ounces (approx. loaded) isn't that heavy, until it's flying through the car at 100 mph and the 30 ounces is in the form of steel.
    You are right. I'm trying to get a holster to drill stuck to the Dash, I think I will get a Serpa. It's a Good and Safe retention to not go anywhere.

    But for now the Anti-slip is Great.
    Wow, imagine this. You pull someone over for speeding. You approach from the drivers side. You see the occupant has his hands on the steering wheel and window open. You get closer to notice a handgun 5 inches away from his right hand on the dashboard. Oh MY would that cause my heart to skip a couple of beats.


    Personally I'd rather have it holstered on your hip OWB where you would have to do at least a couple of contortions to get at it. And also for *me* if you go out of the car and I could reasonably see it, then I would consider it being openly carried.
    If you place it on the dash during the traffic stop... place it with barrel facing forward and the right side down causingthe magazine well to be facing you. This makes it harder for you to grab and hold in your right hand.
    Unless of course you're left handed.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
    Posts
    3,806

    Post imported post

    gregma wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    gregma wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    ParaWarthog wrote:
    UTOC-45-44 wrote:
    1¬*girl ( HOT, if I may say ) smiled at me and took a Picture towards the Dash where the Kimber was in Plain site.
    LOL.¬* It's always great to add a little description in your posts.

    Do you drive with the gun on the "non slip" pad?¬* 30 ounces (approx. loaded) isn't that heavy, until it's flying through the car at 100 mph and the 30 ounces is in the form of steel.
    You are right. I'm trying to get a holster to drill stuck to the Dash, I think I will get a Serpa. It's a Good and Safe retention to not go anywhere.

    But for now the Anti-slip is Great.
    Wow, imagine this.¬* You pull someone over for speeding.¬* You approach from the drivers side.¬* You see the occupant has his hands on the steering wheel and window open.¬* You get closer to notice a handgun 5 inches away from his right hand on the dashboard.¬* Oh MY would that cause my heart to skip a couple of beats.¬*


    Personally I'd rather have it holstered on your hip OWB where you would have to do at least a couple of contortions to get at it.¬* And also for *me* if you go out of the car and I could reasonably see it, then I would consider it being openly carried.
    If you place it on the dash during the traffic stop... place it with barrel facing forward and the right side down causing¬*the magazine well to be facing you. This makes it harder for you to grab and hold in your right hand.
    Unless of course you're left handed.¬*
    Proof Southpaws are superior. :celebrate
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    gregma wrote:
    Unless of course you're left handed.
    This is true... but you would have to reach across the wheel and this would take a little extra time.

    Not to mention that shooting out the window left handed is hard to do.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    4 hours south of HankT, ,
    Posts
    5,121

    Post imported post

    When I get stopped both my hands are on the window sill, documents in hand, before the cop walks up, and that's where they stay.

    Once in high school I got stopped by a cop late at night who thought my car looked like the one driven by some 7-11 stick-up guys, and as he approached I saw in the side mirror that he was loosening the gun in his holster. When he got closer he said sorry for the mistake and let me go, but that's a useful memory.

    Carry a gunor not, not getting shot by a cop is pretty important to me.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member Hawkflyer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,315

    Post imported post

    dngreer wrote:
    glock9emem wrote:
    The no-slip pads are amazing.¬* I have tested them out on a side road by my house braking very hard and locking up the tires(two o' clock in the morning no one around...no one in danger...with gun UNLOADED) and it didn't budge.¬* Try them out it's worth the few dollar investment.
    I have to wonder about the effect of the sun beating down on the gun as it sits on the dash.¬* I have no studies to prove it would damage it in any way, just wondering.
    Heat is only part of the problem, the real threat is UV radiation. In most cases the short wavelengths will be filtered out by glass, but it is possible to damage polymer frames and synthetic grips by exposure to sunlight.

    Usually it will take some time for exposure to damage most modern firearms, but once the damage begins it will progress at increasing speed. Glocks and a few others do have some protective ingredients added to the polymer frames to help prevent this, but they will all eventually succumb over time.

    Heat will eventually cook out the plasticizers that make the material resilient, and over time it will become more brittle. It will take a while, but again once the damage begins, it will progress fast. Usually it will show up as very small cracks at stress points in the frame, particularly around the slide stop and buffer areas.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
    "186,000 Miles per second! ... Not just a good idea ... It's the law!"

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,607

    Post imported post

    I had not thought about UV Rays.

    But I am thinking your gun is going to have to be exposed to the sun for some time before it suffers from any real damage.

    And then.... you can always drive at night.... :P

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •