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Thread: Open Questions for BATFU DIO Richard Van Loan--and an Announcement

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    http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2007/0....html#comments

    Open Questions for BATFU DIO Richard Van Loan--and an Announcement

    So, Dick: Is all this publicity over your heavy-handed persecution of Red's Trading Post the reaction you were hoping for, or is this simply another manifestation of your agency's legendary incompetence resulting in "unintended consequences"?

    Is all the hatred and contempt good Americans have expressed for you and your little "gang" a surprise to you, or is it just another motivating factor that drives you in your ongoing personal crusade against "shall not be infringed"?

    Are you starting to feel the heat yet from your "superiors" (pity you appear to be answering to the wrong ones) for making a very public mess of what could have been a simple audit? I can't imagine they're too happy with you and your underlings right now.

    Allow me to add to their--and your--discomfort, Dick. Tomorrow, I'm going to post photos of Area Supervisor Linda Young on this blog. I'm announcing it now for two reasons: first, to generate as much traffic as possible to see and spread the pictures, and also, to see if you'll try to get a court order preventing me from doing this--that'll be a story in itself. Make that three reasons: I won't mind if you sweat a bit in anticipation.

    Better show this to your bosses, Dick. There isn't much time.

    posted by David Codrea
    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******


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    Because contact info CAN get you into more trouble, even if it's available online, AND it can set up a liability.

    Besides, that info is pretty quickly available. All you need is a name and a city.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Related story: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56832

    WEAPONS OF CHOICE
    'Blog' puts fear into gun shop inspectors
    Review of sales records ends over 'safety' worries






    Posted: July 25, 2007
    1:00 a.m. Eastern

    ©2007WorldNetDaily.com

    A team of inspectors from the http://www.atf.treas.gov/contact/index.htm]federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives[/url] fled an Idaho gun shop where they were inspecting sales records when they learned their actions were being recorded on a blog.
    The federal agency and http://www.redstradingpost.com]Red's Trading Post of Twin Falls, Idaho,[/url] have been disputing for six years already over the store's license to sell firearms, with regulators using rules infractions such as a missing poster to attack Red's business operations.
    WND documented earlier how the store appears to be caught up in a new campaign for gun control, focusing on the elimination of retail outlets through technical rules infractions.
    Now the federal agency has gone to court with a report that its inspectors "suspended" their work at the store recently because of the "threat to the inspectors' safety created by Ryan Horsley, the Manager of Red's."

    Sometime during the agency's visit to his store on July 17, he updated his blog, which he's been using to chronicle for readers his encounters with the federal bureaucracy.
    "AFT Area Supervisor Linda Young came in today from Spokane, Washington (567.72 miles; 9 hour drive) along with Industry Operations Inspectors Calvin Pavey and Mike Gorewicz from Portland, Oregon (570.96 miles; 9 hour drive) at around 9:45am. They showed up in a rented newer model Chrsyler … [it] appears they are staying at Best America Suites, which I have to compliment them on their taste, that is a very nice hotel for this area," he wrote.
    He went on to describe how the inspectors were looking through the store's books and one of the store's supporters arrived with a camera and started taking some photos.
    "We had been recording the audit because of some of the statements that Linda Young had made in the past," he wrote.
    The inspectors, however, suddenly left, and within days, the federal agency's version arrived in the U.S. District Court for the District of Idaho.
    "[The federal agency] notifies the court than an inspection of Red's Trading Post … was initiated on July 17, 2007. The inspection was suspended due to the threat to the inspectors' safety created by Ryan Horsley, the Manager of Red's," the court filing said.
    The filing documented how some unidentified person had taken pictures of the inspectors at work.
    "At about this time, Supervisor Young's assistant from the Spokane office contacted her and advised that Mr. Horsley had updated his internet blog (http://redstradingpost.blogspot.com/) to include the information that ATF, and Supervisor Young personally, was at the store conducting an inspection," the filing said. So Young contacted others.
    "The Director of Industry Operations, Richard Van Loan, agreed with Supervisor Young's assessment that the photographing of the rental car used by ATF personnel, coupled with the instantaneous posting on the internet of ATF's presence … posed a credible threat to their safety and was designed to harass and intimidate," the court filing said.
    The court filing noted two other times when the inspectors had been photographed, including once by a news team.
    "The ATF has resorted to a smear campaign on my character to present before the judge, they are now spinning the fact that I wrote a recap of the events on our blog…" Horsley said in an update.
    "My point was to show the excess spending of the ATF, many of you know that in our 2005 audit the ATF brought in one inspector to cover five years. I was merely pointing out that they were flying in two inspectors and a supervisor from out of state to cover three weeks worth of paperwork," Horsley said.
    "The person in question who photographed them was a 70-year-old man in a Hawaiian shirt who is balding (Sorry, Al) and has a broken foot. Yet three inspectors felt that they were in danger," he saida.
    "Continue to pray for myself and my family during these attacks, also pray for these people at the ATF. I mean that honestly, Luke 6:27-28," Horsley said.
    A writer, David Codrea, of http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2007/07/breaking-news-batfu-accuses-reds-of.html]The War on Guns[/url] documented the court filing.
    He reported that Horsley had asked him to hold the information for a time.
    "BATFU had threatened him that he needed to cease all blogging and keep their agents and inspectors free from being photographed or observed, or they would go to the judge and file a complaint of harassment," Codrea wrote.
    "The new complaint is calculated to be a death blow to Red's – both financially with additional legal expenses they cannot afford, and by giving the judge an excuse to side with thugs portraying themselves as victims," he said. .
    "I repeat my call for a rapid response team of 'minuteman' volunteers to make themselves available via a phone tree to go to gun stores being audited, and audit/document/photograph the auditors," he wrote. "Don't let creatures of the shadows hide there – expose them to the light and make them live there – or cravenly slink back under the baseboards where they belong."
    Larry Pratt of http://www.gunowners.org/]Gun Owners of America[/url] told WND that as recently as 15 or 20 years ago, there were 250,000 licensed gun dealers in the United States. The federal government confirms there are only about 108,000 now.
    The saga with Red's began when the ATF inspection in 2000 discovered various paperwork violations, Horsley said, just shortly after he arrived to take over the store, mistakes such as a customer failing to write down the county in which he lived.
    In 2001, "they couldn't find any violations," he told WND. A few other minor problems were found later, including a failure to put up a poster.
    "I wasn't alarmed because this agent … had told us we were one of the best small gun shops he'd ever seen," Horsley told WND.
    Then early in 2006, "We get a letter that 'We're [ATF] revoking your license,'" Horsley said. "I just came unglued. I couldn't believe it."
    After an expensive appeal process within ATF, he ended up with the same result, and sought out a lawyer for the federal court challenge, a challenge which now is pending.

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    Private property, public space, correct?

    Also, I've yet to see a gun store that was lacking any kind of security cameras, and probably audio recorders.

    I hope they didn't feel threatened by those as well.

    Does anyone else think this stinks of trying to intimidate Chet's wife when she had a camera out?
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    There's a guy I shot sporting clays with for 4 years or so. He worked at a gun shop. A undercover ATF agent went into his store, mentioned he had been in jail in casual conversation, and bought some shotgun shells.

    The guy I shot with sold him the shotgun shells and didn't inquire as to why he'd been to jail, etc. He was arrested, put in jail for several years, and can never touch a gun again. Just another notch for a federal prosecutor's belt. Ruined my friend's life, of course.


    As far as posting information about federal agents, I'd seriously consider what you're getting yourself into before you do that.

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    ..As far as posting information about federal agents, I'd seriously consider what you're getting yourself into before you do that.
    In the face of tyranny, eventualy, people push back.

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    Jail does not equate conviction! Nor does conviction always mean prohibited!


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    Yep. Their entire case was based around the fact my friend didn't inquire into the matter further. Like asking what he had been to jail for.

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    nickerj1 wrote:
    He was arrested, put in jail for several years, and can never touch a gun again.
    It's one thing to take away an FFL, another thing to strip you of your RKBA. That would imply a felony. What was the charge?



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    If you think these abuses are over the top, imagine for a moment what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Confiscation, Eradication and Suppression (BATFECES) will do if Madam Hillary becomes our first Presidentrix. Those of you thinking of staying home or voting Libertarian in the next election might want to consider this. It isn't pretty....

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    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    If you think these abuses are over the top, imagine for a moment what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Confiscation, Eradication and Suppression (BATFECES) will do if Madam Hillary becomes our first Presidentrix. Those of you thinking of staying home or voting Libertarian in the next election might want to consider this. It isn't pretty....
    Wow, guess this BS is starting early this election. I was wondering when it would start.

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    Hum... None of the links to his blog are working. I hope that does not mean what I think it means.

    Regards
    "Research has shown that a 230 grain lead pellet placed just behind the ear at 850 FPS results in a permanent cure for violent criminal behavior."
    "If you are not getting Flak, you are not over the target"
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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    If you think these abuses are over the top, imagine for a moment what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Confiscation, Eradication and Suppression (BATFECES) will do if Madam Hillary becomes our first Presidentrix. Those of you thinking of staying home or voting Libertarian in the next election might want to consider this. It isn't pretty....
    Wow, guess this BS is starting early this election. I was wondering when it would start.
    I don't see anything wrong with Dutch Uncle's point, which seems to be that for important national offices in close races between Democrats and Republicans, that voting Libertarian would be "wasting" a vote.

    That's always beena criticism of 3rd party voting in tight races. I don't think it's "BS." It's a pretty solid criticism. Though it can be countered with some decent arguments...

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    HankT wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    If you think these abuses are over the top, imagine for a moment what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Confiscation, Eradication and Suppression (BATFECES) will do if Madam Hillary becomes our first Presidentrix. Those of you thinking of staying home or voting Libertarian in the next election might want to consider this. It isn't pretty....
    Wow, guess this BS is starting early this election. I was wondering when it would start.
    I don't see anything wrong with Dutch Uncle's point, which seems to be that for important national offices in close races between Democrats and Republicans, that voting Libertarian would be "wasting" a vote.

    That's always beena criticism of 3rd party voting in tight races. I don't think it's "BS." It's a pretty solid criticism. Though it can be countered with some decent arguments...
    The "BS" is the arguing that always starts before an election, when republicans worry about losing, they start telling libertarians what bad people they are for voting the way they want to vote. It always gets nasty and turns into name-calling.

    I'll reserve my thoughts on the matter for another thread, perhaps one could be set aside for libertarians and republicans to flame each other to their hearts' content. A good flamewar now and then is fun.

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    Where Red's Trading Post goes.....America will follow.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Tomahawk wrote:
    Dutch Uncle wrote:
    If you think these abuses are over the top, imagine for a moment what the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Confiscation, Eradication and Suppression (BATFECES) will do if Madam Hillary becomes our first Presidentrix. Those of you thinking of staying home or voting Libertarian in the next election might want to consider this. It isn't pretty....
    Wow, guess this BS is starting early this election. I was wondering when it would start.
    I don't see anything wrong with Dutch Uncle's point, which seems to be that for important national offices in close races between Democrats and Republicans, that voting Libertarian would be "wasting" a vote.

    That's always beena criticism of 3rd party voting in tight races. I don't think it's "BS." It's a pretty solid criticism. Though it can be countered with some decent arguments...
    The "BS" is the arguing that always starts before an election, when republicans worry about losing, they start telling libertarians what bad people they are for voting the way they want to vote. It always gets nasty and turns into name-calling.

    I'll reserve my thoughts on the matter for another thread, perhaps one could be set aside for libertarians and republicans to flame each other to their hearts' content. A good flamewar now and then is fun.
    Well, that just proves my point about the extremists and dullards in any super partisan orideological contestation. The e & d's will make it a flame war. Doesn't have to be. Reasonable people can discuss reasonable ideas anytime they wish. And no one has to feel compelled to censor someone else's ideas simply because they disagree with them. Heck, just havea good discussion/argument. Free discussion is what this country (and the Internet for that matter) was based on.

    Why don't you start the thread, T'hawk, and try to get a real discussion going? An intelligent one. But, if the object is simply to start a flame war, maybe don'tbother.

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