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Thread: Education WIthout Confrontation?

  1. #1
    Regular Member JD's Avatar
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    Being new here I may me bringing something up that's been beat to death, if so I apologize.



    I've been reading a lot of the threads here and I came across one with the context along the following lines:

    "Imay OC only when I want to educate LEOS"

    I couldn't tell if the original poster was serious or not, I'm assuminghe was, but what I was wondering is that seeing as how this site has been involved with the media asnd this site has ties to the VCDL. Have any attempts been made to have seminars with local LE agencies to actually educate them in a formal environment regarding citizen's rights to openly carry a fire arm.

    I'd like to see some type of more formal education, I've seen the fliers, and they look great, but has anyone made any efforts to get a few hundred copies and deliver them to LE agencies?

    I just think it would be a good supplement with the current tactics.

    If it hasn't been done would anyone be interested in going in on cost of say 1000 copies of the fliers?

    Me and the wife will be moving to VA in the next few months and plan on joining the VCDL, I need to read over their website some more and get some more details about how we can help out.

    Any info would be greatly appreciated.



    JD

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    Lonnie Wilson (a member here)has been a virtual one man show when it comes to educating the LEO community here in WA. From what I have read, he was persistent with phone calls and emails to officials high in the departments (Chiefs,Lt's, etc.) with high success (check out http://www.washingtonceasefire.netfor the story) His efforts resulted infive training bulletins state wide! But that training came from within the department, not from without. I doubt that LEO's would be very receptive to training from citizens or even lawyers.

    I have the same desire here in WA, and have PM'd Lonnie on same subject. Will share when I get a response. God bless JD, HR.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Yes, this is a good tactic for getting the info. to ignorant but not hostile leos.For the hostile ones the other methods are the only way.

    Asking to speak at Leo Associations (Unions) is one way to get to present info in an educational way to many in the department. My association has had speakers from public interest groups come on several but very rare occasions. The person to contact is the Associations Board of Directors and any city or county police office should be able to give you a mailing address to send a letter.

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    Regular Member JD's Avatar
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    Just found THIS thread regarding it, don't know why it didn't turn up in the search...

    Just to clarify, I'm not talking about going in and teaching a class, just getting something like the PA flyers that are on this site.

    After looking at the Norfolk PDs screw up, this would probably be a good time to appraoch loacl city/township council's and provide them with FREE flyers to hand out to their officers to prevent litigation against the cities/townships and SAVE the taxpayers money.

    If you can't beat 'em on the street, show them a way to avoid a lawsuit and not have to pay for materials...

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    I suspect for most here OC is just a mode of convienence or personal choice. Educating the public is also a motivation but a secondary one, among others. Educating LEOs is a small part of that. The point I'm trying to make is that most OCers I know do not want to have a LEO teachable moment. They just want to go about their business.

    LEOs around here either know its legal or they do not. Either way one could expect a professional or uneventful encounter or an unprofessional and unpleasant one. The difference between the two types can be seen in the recent Manassas, Norfolk and Alexandria events and the Burke Lake picnic.

    I think I recall that VCDL has tried to send info packets to local departments in the past with mixed results. However recent events may make pertinent to try again. Of course there may be departments with a political leadership opposed to our goals or even our attempt to educate.

    JD as you know there is a lot of animosity out there towards open carriers or the practice. One bastion of this is the LEO community, because their training and doctrine often discourage or outright ban open carry when not on duty. That may be hard to overcome. There is also a lot of mistrust toward VCDL in particular by some LEOs. I point to the notion that circulated in official emails that we were lawsuit shopping in the Tonys incident. I'm still saying that this idea should be explored but there may be some obstacles to contend with.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    You should have seen the reaction when one of the Tonys 7 tried to show some legal materials to the Manassas PD. Very scary.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    JD wrote:
    Just found THIS thread regarding it, don't know why it didn't turn up in the search...

    Just to clarify, I'm not talking about going in and teaching a class, just getting something like the PA flyers that are on this site.

    After looking at the Norfolk PDs screw up, this would probably be a good time to appraoch loacl city/township council's and provide them with FREE flyers to hand out to their officers to prevent litigation against the cities/townships and SAVE the taxpayers money.

    If you can't beat 'em on the street, show them a way to avoid a lawsuit and not have to pay for materials...
    You have a good idea, good logic and good points. I encourage you in your endeavor. But there is resistance to such an idea. Why, the naysayers come out on this one like they do, I cannot fathom. Witness BobCav's posts in that thread...



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Anyone know offhand if the ACLU or other civil rights groups have similar handouts for law enforcement? If LEO229 drops in here maybe he can comment if such things ever hit roll call.

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    longwatch wrote:
    Anyone know offhand if the ACLU or other civil rights groups have similar handouts for law enforcement? If LEO229 drops in here maybe he can comment if such things ever hit roll call.
    In roll call they warn us that the "open carry group" is at it again. They also mention that OC is legal and to just observe the activity.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator longwatch's Avatar
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    Really or are you just kidding? If so ,they must say that everyday then because we are 'at it' everyday.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Anyone know offhand if the ACLU or other civil rights groups have similar handouts for law enforcement? If LEO229 drops in here maybe he can comment if such things ever hit roll call.
    In roll call they warn us that the "open carry group" is at it again. They also mention that OC is legal and to just observe the activity.

    That's interesting use of the language...which generate theseinformal thoughts.

    First, on defining OCers as a "group." Generally, unfavorable, I think. It enablesus vs. them conceptualizations. Andthe term "open carry group" doesn't acknowledge (enough) that an LEO coming across an OCer that shift could be just a regular ole legally carrying Joe Citizen, not affiliated with VCDL, OCDO, or any other organization.

    Second, is the "at it again" descriptor falsely (I don't mean maliciously) describes the OCers as kind of an on again off again activity. That's clearly not the case, as OCers in VA, the place withthe most OCing happeninganywhere in the U.S., are regularly OCing. All the time. Every day, week, month. So, the "at it again" term really is false. They, are always "at it." It's not a cycle of activitiy, it is a slightly/steadily increasing activity.

    For some reason, I think thesecond point is more harmful than the first...it's so obviously wrongthat it indicates a lagging perception of where OC is at in VA.

    I don't mean to trash what is being said in LEO 220's roll call. He is a great guy and probably works in a great department. This is just what impresses me about his candid and informative comment.


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    I believe the term "group" is used since many encounters that really get talked about are when a "group" of OCers get together for a casual get together and the police are called.

    Burke Lake Park, Manassas, Ect...

    Those who do OCare not really understood and I can attest to that since I had no idea till I came here and asked. Originally.. I was under the impression a bunch of guys were getting together to "test the waters" and see where they could stir up trouble.

    I now know this is not the case and that most.. not all... that OC are good people, enjoy firearms, and like getting together to chit chat. The OC community has a common interest.. Guns!!

    As for "At it again" comes from the notion that the "group" is out wanting to get attention and cause problems. This is also far from the truth. Now the group will take action against those that take action against them that is not justified. I completely understand that and encourage those who have been wronged to file a complaint.



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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I completely understand that and encourage those who have been wronged to file a complaint.
    You've always been good about that, LEO 229. You call them as you see them. Sometimes you opine that the LEO was right, sometimes you say that the OCer/citizen was right.

    You don't seem to play favorites, though you do have a biased perspective. You're willing to actually say something that goes against your bias. Which is, of course, the right thing to do.

    In a wierd way, you are damned whatever you do: If you say the LEO is right, many here will attack you. If you say the LEO is wrong, then your colleagues would attack you (if they knew who you were and what you were saying).

    I remember shortly after you came onboard here at OCDO, that some guys were talking about trying to find out who you were. Some danged reason, I forget why. I'm sure it was a "he is not one of us" kind of thing.

    But, I hope you don't get identified by some LEOs in your part of the state. You could get some grief from them.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Anyone know offhand if the ACLU or other civil rights groups have similar handouts for law enforcement? If LEO229 drops in here maybe he can comment if such things ever hit roll call.
    In roll call they warn us that the "open carry group" is at it again. They also mention that OC is legal and to just observe the activity.
    And you Leo 229 need to run ALL there SN's.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I believe the term "group" is used since many encounters that really get talked about are when a "group" of OCers get together for a casual get together and the police are called.

    Burke Lake Park, Manassas, Ect...

    Those who do OCare not really understood and I can attest to that since I had no idea till I came here and asked. Originally.. I was under the impressionl I unch of guys were getting together to "test the waters" and see where they could stir up trouble.

    I now know this is not the case and that most.. not all... that OC are good people, enjoy firearms, and like getting together to chit chat. The OC community has a common interest.. Guns!!

    As for "At it again" comes from the notion that the "group" is out wanting to get attention and cause problems. This is also far from the truth. Now the group will take action against those that take action against them that is not justified. I completely understand that and encourage those who have been wronged to file a complaint.

    I can only hope that one day the few LEOs like you can get the others to understand that what we really want is to be able to go about our day, while open carrying, and have nothing more eventful come from it. Being hassled because of my gun is very low on my list of priorities. On a scale of 1-10, here's how I would rate the following things:

    Friendly encounter with fellow citizen about open carry: 10
    Uneventful day in which no one notices I even have my gun: 9
    Friendly chit chat with officer while I OC: 9
    Civil discussion with "anti" (yes, they can happen): 5
    Hassled by police because I OC: 3
    Mugged: 1

    However, like most on here, I'm not actually going to stop doing a perfectly legal activity, that harms no one (at least no one that isn't trying to harm me), just because some poorly trained officers are going to give me grief about it. I'm a libertarian at heart: you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    longwatch wrote:
    Anyone know offhand if the ACLU or other civil rights groups have similar handouts for law enforcement? If LEO229 drops in here maybe he can comment if such things ever hit roll call.
    In roll call they warn us that the "open carry group" is at it again. They also mention that OC is legal and to just observe the activity.
    Sounds good to me, LEO 229! Observe being the operative word here, I think.No real need for any kind of interaction at all!Have a look, by all means, nothing untoward happening,move on!Good to see that your PD is realistic and sensible as regards a perfectly legal activity, and thanks for your informative posts!

    TrueBrit.

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