Open Handling?

HankT · Aug 3, 2007

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Tomahawk wrote:

HankT wrote:

How is a mag disconnecta "serious liability in a fight?"

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

Click to expand...

If you are changing magazines with one still in the pipe your pistol is useless until you finish the mag change.

That's interesting. I wonder how often that happens?

OK, so that's the "serious liability." What arethebenefit(s) of a magdisconnect?

Tomahawk · Aug 3, 2007

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HankT wrote:

What arethebenefit(s) of a magdisconnect?

The theory according to the lawyers is that some people, forgetting that the chamber may be loaded,think that removing the magazine means the gun is unloaded and are thus more careless with the trigger.

If it makes you more comfortable, there's nothing wrong with it.

Pa. Patriot · Aug 3, 2007

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Tomahawk, don't fall into the Hank trap.
HankT has obviously never had any quality SD training or he would not have to drone on and on about the worthless magazine safety.

Tomahawk · Aug 3, 2007

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He asked the question, I answered is all. I'm well aware of his nonsense, being at the butt end of it quite often. But the magazine safety is a subject folks should hear about and do some studying up on. I know lots of guys who have no use for it, inclusding my local dealer and the gunsmith. Maybe somebody out there is happy with it, who knows. I certainly don't.

kparker seemed to think that modifying your gun in any way is a bad idea, and that's also a good default position. I don't recommend changing anything on your firearm unless you know exactly what the effect will be. At best, you may ruin the resale value, at worst, set yourself up for a very bad day.

AbNo · Aug 3, 2007

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HankT wrote:

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

Situation: Newb's first pistol is mag-safety'd. So he gets used to the idea he can pull the trigger with one in the chamber, as long as the mag is out.

He gets a new pistol (say, an XD or apparently, a 1911) that has no Mag-safety. He decides to be funny with it (ala those Utah idiots in some other thread), and pulls the trigger.

At best, he has a hole in a wall/floor/car. All because he got started on mag-safeties.

Tomahawk wrote:

The real safety is the one between your ears. (Or your butt cheeks in some cases)

:lol:

unrequited · Aug 3, 2007

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HankT wrote:

How is a mag disconnect a "serious liability in a fight?"

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

In a struggle, even if you maintain retention, the bg (or yourself) might accidentally hit your mag release... an oversized derringer is still one shot better than nothing. Plus you can always pick up your mag or use a spare right? (hah, from the other thread on spares... I usually don't)

I could see a person who becomes accustomed to a mag safety choosing not to clear the chamber because the disconnect "should" handle it, and then ND.

HankT · Aug 4, 2007

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unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

Click to expand...

I could see a person who becomes accustomed to a mag safety choosing not to clear the chamber because the disconnect "should" handle it, and then ND.

But how would there be an ND? The mag disconnect would fail?

That's athree stage conditional probability.

First, the person would leavea round in the chamber.

Second, he would somehow (accidently or intentionally) pull the trigger.

Third, the mag disconnect would have to either already have been infailed state or fail at that event.

How do you think there could be an ND, un?

openryan · Aug 4, 2007

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Tomahawk wrote:

He asked the question, I answered is all. I'm well aware of his nonsense, being at the butt end of it quite often. But the magazine safety is a subject folks should hear about and do some studying up on. I know lots of guys who have no use for it, inclusding my local dealer and the gunsmith. Maybe somebody out there is happy with it, who knows. I certainly don't.

kparker seemed to think that modifying your gun in any way is a bad idea, and that's also a good default position. I don't recommend changing anything on your firearm unless you know exactly what the effect will be. At best, you may ruin the resale value, at worst, set yourself up for a very bad day.

I am not particularyly unhappy with it, I guess I am indifferent to it.

The problem is non existent if you realize the issue before you purchase the firearm. If you purchase the firearm, knowing full and well that the magazine safety is there, well then you really can't object much, or at least I would think, unless your intention is to remove it or modify it in some way, which if you are experience, I would not think would present a problem, except if someone who is familiar with that particular model of firearm picked it up, released the mag and was looking at it, and pulled the trigger to 'dry fire'. Which I don't care if you know that the firearm should or should not have a magazine safety, the chamber should always be checked.

Legba · Aug 4, 2007

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Tomahawk wrote:

Legba wrote:

Two words: magazine safety.

-ljp

Click to expand...

You mean you didn't disable yours?

I actually like magazine safeties - keeps morons from shooting you with an "unloaded" gun if someone manhandles it with the mag out (I've heard that the original idea was that cops could drop the mag in a struggle so as to avoid getting shot with their own gun if someone ever manually disarmed them - who knows). My FN is the only pistol I have without it, and I think it's optional on those. Anyway, I was just suggesting a way to avoid the hypothetical carnage suggested before, with someone chambering a round when you hand them a de-magazined gun.

-ljp

HankT · Aug 4, 2007

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Legba wrote:

Tomahawk wrote:

Legba wrote:

Two words: magazine safety.

-ljp

Click to expand...

You mean you didn't disable yours?

Click to expand...

I actually like magazine safeties - keeps morons from shooting you with an "unloaded" gun if someone manhandles it with the mag out (I've heard that the original idea was that cops could drop the mag in a struggle so as to avoid getting shot with their own gun if someone ever manually disarmed them - who knows). My FN is the only pistol I have without it, and I think it's optional on those. Anyway, I was just suggesting a way to avoid the hypothetical carnage suggested before, with someone chambering a round when you hand them a de-magazined gun.

This raises an interesting point. What is the standard in LE: to have the mag disconnect or not?

I know the FBI, when it was considering the 10mm S&W semi-auto, specifically demanded no mag disconnect. S&W made a 1076 for the FBI that complied with its demand. But for the commercial market (1006, 1026, 1066, etc.) the mag disconnect was indeed present. So I can guess how the FBI feels about it but don't really know for regular LE.

What is the standard in LE: to have the mag disconnect or not? I imagine some departments will, some won't. But is there a clear winner of a standard--is it 90% one way? Anyone know?

unrequited · Aug 4, 2007

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HankT wrote:

unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

Click to expand...

I could see a person who becomes accustomed to a mag safety choosing not to clear the chamber because the disconnect "should" handle it, and then ND.

Click to expand...

But how would there be an ND? The mag disconnect would fail?

That's a three stage conditional probability.

First, the person would leave a round in the chamber.

Second, he would somehow (accidently or intentionally) pull the trigger.

Third, the mag disconnect would have to either already have been in failed state or fail at that event.

How do you think there could be an ND, un?

I didn't mean in that gun in particular. I meant developing bad habits such as dropping the mag and thinking the gun is safe because all you're used to are mag disc'ed.

Legba · Aug 4, 2007

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HankT wrote:

Legba wrote:

Tomahawk wrote:

Legba wrote:

Two words: magazine safety.

-ljp

Click to expand...

You mean you didn't disable yours?

Click to expand...

I actually like magazine safeties - keeps morons from shooting you with an "unloaded" gun if someone manhandles it with the mag out (I've heard that the original idea was that cops could drop the mag in a struggle so as to avoid getting shot with their own gun if someone ever manually disarmed them - who knows). My FN is the only pistol I have without it, and I think it's optional on those. Anyway, I was just suggesting a way to avoid the hypothetical carnage suggested before, with someone chambering a round when you hand them a de-magazined gun.

Click to expand...

This raises an interesting point. What is the standard in LE: to have the mag disconnect or not?

I know the FBI, when it was considering the 10mm S&W semi-auto, specifically demanded no mag disconnect. S&W made a 1076 for the FBI that complied with its demand. But for the commercial market (1006, 1026, 1066, etc.) the mag disconnect was indeed present. So I can guess how the FBI feels about it but don't really know for regular LE.

What is the standard in LE: to have the mag disconnect or not? I imagine some departments will, some won't. But is there a clear winner of a standard--is it 90% one way? Anyone know?

I do know that something like 60% of American LE agencies are using Glocks now, and I don't think they even offer an optional magazine safety, so I gather the consensus is against it now. My FN was originally a police gun and it doesn't have it.

-ljp

HankT · Aug 4, 2007

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unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

Click to expand...

I could see a person who becomes accustomed to a mag safety choosing not to clear the chamber because the disconnect "should" handle it, and then ND.

Click to expand...

But how would there be an ND? The mag disconnect would fail?

That's athree stage conditional probability.

First, the person would leavea round in the chamber.

Second, he would somehow (accidently or intentionally) pull the trigger.

Third, the mag disconnect would have to either already have been infailed state or fail at that event.

How do you think there could be an ND, un?

Click to expand...

I didn't mean in that gun in particular. I meant developing bad habits such as dropping the mag and thinking the gun is safe because all you're used to are mag disc'ed.

Hmm, that makes it a four stage probability, I think,...maybe more. It's hurting my brain to think about it right now. :?

Actually, in line with your logic, there's another variation:

Goof with a gun loads semi-auto handgun (with mag disconnect).
GWAG racks slide, one in the chamber now.
GWAG pulls mag out.
GWAG knows that his gun will not fire.
GWAG, for fun and merriment, points gun to head and pulls trigger.
Nothing happens, no fire.
GWAG puts mag back into gun. Forgets about chambered round.
GWAG, for fun and merriment, again points gun to head and pulls trigger.
BANG!

That could happen too.

unrequited · Aug 4, 2007

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HankT wrote:

blah blah blah blah blah
That could happen too.

Where's my kool-aid?

You asked how it could lend a false sense of security to a nub... I answered it, then you drone on and on with your crazon ramblings.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand that mag safeties canteach bad habits, or at the least may instill a "false sense of security" in newer gun owners/shooters.

Sometimes I think you just argue to hear your lips flap and your keyboard click.

HankT · Aug 4, 2007

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unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

Hmm, that makes it a four stage probability, I think,...maybe more. It's hurting my brain to think about it right now. :?

Actually, in line with your logic, there's another variation:

Goof with a gun loads semi-auto handgun (with mag disconnect).

GWAG racks slide, one in the chamber now.

GWAG pulls mag out.

GWAG knows that his gun will not fire.

GWAG, for fun and merriment, points gun to head and pulls trigger.

Nothing happens, no fire.

GWAG puts mag back into gun. Forgets about chambered round.

GWAG, for fun and merriment, again points gun to head and pulls trigger.

BANG!

That could happen too.

Click to expand...

Where's my kool-aid?

You asked how it could lend a false sense of security to a nub... I answered it, then you drone on and on with your crazon ramblings.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to understand that mag safeties canteach bad habits, or at the least may instill a "false sense of security" in newer gun owners/shooters.

Sometimes I think you just argue to hear your lips flap and your keyboard click.

What do you mean? The variation I concocted could happen. And it is (kind of) in line with your logic. I don't say it's bad logic. It'sjust a variation on what you yourself have proposed. It's not bad. Just possible. And it (kind of) supports your position.

And I don't think that your rationale that a mag disconnect may instill a "false sense of security" is limited to newer gun owners/shooters. It could also affect experienced guys, too. I'm certain that it would, actually.

AbNo · Aug 4, 2007

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unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

unrequited wrote:

HankT wrote:

And how does it lend "a false sense of security to a neophyte?"

Click to expand...

I could see a person who becomes accustomed to a mag safety choosing not to clear the chamber because the disconnect "should" handle it, and then ND.

Click to expand...

But how would there be an ND? The mag disconnect would fail?

That's a three stage conditional probability.

First, the person would leave a round in the chamber.

Second, he would somehow (accidently or intentionally) pull the trigger.

Third, the mag disconnect would have to either already have been in failed state or fail at that event.

How do you think there could be an ND, un?

Click to expand...

I didn't mean in that gun in particular. I meant developing bad habits such as dropping the mag and thinking the gun is safe because all you're used to are mag disc'ed.

Just point him to my response about being acustomed to having a mag safety.

Which he "amazingly" forgot. :quirky

Hawkflyer · Aug 4, 2007

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Mag safeties started in some older models of European handguns before WWII, and spread to some pocket pistols here. Some of the military selection boards in Europe liked them because they thought they would reduce NDs and the resulting injuries. A lot of line soldiers felt that they increased the risks to troops for just the reasons cited in this thread. If you are topping off, and need to fire, you can't.

The fact is that no one should ever depend on any mechanical "safety" device. They can fail and they can and do incline people who depend on them to do unsafe things when handling weapons.

Many people argue that Mag safeties make the weapon safer to own and use, but a properly trained person would never need it or rely on it, and an improperly trained person should not be handling the weapon in the first place.

As soon as you make something idiot proof, only an idiot would want to use it.

Regards

xmirage2kx · Aug 5, 2007

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Hawkflyer wrote:

As soon as you make something idiot proof, only an idiot would want to use it.

+1

Make something Idiot proof, you only make a "better" (aka dumber)Idiot

kparker · Aug 5, 2007

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Newb's first pistol is mag-safety'd. So he gets used to the idea he can pull the trigger with one in the chamber...

I could see a person who becomes accustomed to a mag safety choosing not to clear the chamber because the disconnect "should" handle it, and then ND

Omigosh, people! Those who do the above are way, way too dangerous to own a firarm of any type. What part of violating the 4 rules are justified by the presence of a mag disconnect?

Tomahawk,

kparker seemed to think that modifying your gun in any way is a bad idea

Sorry, that's not what I said. What I did say was "modifying it so that it no longer operates as described in the manual of arms is a bad idea". So go ahead, change the sights, the grips, put in stronger/weaker springs, get the trigger smoothed, etc, etc--all good.

Tomahawk · Aug 5, 2007

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I guess we'll have to disagree, kparker. It's your gun, do what you want with it.

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