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Thread: S&W Sigma SW9VE

  1. #1
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    I was wondering as the Sigma's are almost exactly like the Glock, if they too can go full auto -- I realize you need an FFL to do this, but I was hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

    I have searched the internet countless times to no avail regarding wether or not the pistol can be made into full auto, anyone have any insight here?


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    Yes - don't do it. The ATF permits transfers of existing machine guns, but as far as I know, they are not permitting manufacture of new automatics apart from LE/military. I may be wrong, butthat was the status of it the last time I checked.

    Also, you don't need an FFL for a transfer of a full-auto piece - pay the tax and get the requisite fingerprinting, photos, background check, etc done and you're OK. There really is no such thing as a blanket "class 3" license that permits trafficking in automatics. It's all done ad hoc.

    -ljp


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    I thought it would be permissible as long as you had a manufacturer's FFL...

    Any links that show that this is possible, perhaps a video, I would just like to see one in action, no diagrams are necessary, unless you are wanting to share


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    While the full auto Glock (18) looks like the 17, inside it's a completely different beast. Virtually none of the parts are interchangeable; even the screws and attachment points to the frame are slightly incompatible, with the differences as small as a millimeter or less. That's a necessity with Glocks, since they're manufactured overseas and are imported to the US... if parts were mixable, the ATF might argue that a Glock 17 is a "converted automatic" and ban it from civilian purchase because of a "lack of sporting purpose" (it happens... I've never owned a Glock as a carry gun, but I'd probably buy a .380-Auto one for concealed carry if they weren't banned from import). Just drawing from that knowledge, I'd bet that Sigmas, if they could be built to fire fully automatically, would be in much the same boat, and current semi-auto production models wouldn't be able to be converted without a complete rebuild.

    I know there are third-party devices that attach to the trigger group of Glocks to convert them to select-fire or fully automatic, but those thingies are add-ons to the action much like a Lightning Link for an AR-15; they are regulated Class 3 items in their own right and can't be manufactured without a SOT.

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    Damn, I would love to have a full auto Sigma too

    I guess I'll have to try to get my hands on one of these full auto Glocks's (gross).

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    openryan wrote:
    I thought it would be permissible as long as you had a manufacturer's FFL...

    Any links that show that this is possible, perhaps a video, I would just like to see one in action, no diagrams are necessary, unless you are wanting to share
    Are you in fact a manufacturer? It may be possible then. Call ATF. I doubt they would sign off on a guy just making the odd piece in his basement, though. You pretty much need a storefront to get a dealer's license now - they've tightened up the garage/basement "dealership" stuff that you used to be able to get by with - so I would think you'd need a proper machine shop and intend to engage in the business of manufacturing guns to get a license. Likewise, you have to comply with local zoning, etc.

    -ljp


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    In order to legally make a full auto firearm you have to be a class 7 SOT (Special Occupation Taxpayer - IIRC). Basically, the is the level of FFL which allows you to manufacture just about any kind of firearm (not sure it covers DD's though).

    The only way they will grant you this license is if you can show proof that you are already in, or prepared to get in, to this type of business full time. The taxes for this license are also an order of magnitude above those for the usual FFL.

    The last day that any individual could legally register and make/convert a firearm to full auto was May 18, 1986.

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    Okay - forget the legality of this mess! Is it possible?


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    Putting aside legal issues - let's assume you live on a small, sovereign islandand are buddies with the local king who will let you do this - yes it is possible.

    Fully automatic handguns have been around about as long as auto-loading handguns have been available. The mechanism to do this is not much more complicated than the mechanism for a semi-auto action.

    I know that some gunsmiths in the Philippines have converted Para-Ord pistols to full auto. Just about every major pistol design has been made in full-auto versions - at least as proto-types if not offered for sale. A polymer framed pistol presents a few technical issues and the striker-based action would probably require modifications to the slide as well.

    But I would say this is mechanically possible.

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    I am trying to find a legal loop-hole, does the Government has a definition as to what fully automatic is considered?


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    The federal definition of a fully automatic firearm is a firearm which is capable of discharging two shots or more for a single pull of the trigger. Most states use this definition - although I am aware that one or two defined this as more than two shots.

    The only loophole I have heard of - other than to become a class 7 SOT - is to make it immobile. Basically, if it is premanently anchored in place with a fixed point of aim it is OK - but I have never heard of this being done. Even if you did this the modified slide could be construed and a conversion part and seen as illegal to possess at the same time as a functioning semi-auto of the same model.

    There is no other loophole I am aware of to legally convert one to functional full-auto.

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    Well if it IS more than two, I have to do some research.

    Maybe it could 'burst-fire' two at a time, not that I would OC this, but it would be fun at the range.


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    Sorry - I mis-stated that and had to edit it.

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    Damn, well that changes everything! :?

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    I don’t know if you have ever seen those ‘Rapid Fire’ products that used to be sold about 15 or 20 years ago? These were clamped to the trigger guard and had a lever which ended in a ring. You would grip the gun as usual but put your trigger finger in the ring and pull the lever. The lever was connected to a cog which turned and activated the gun’s trigger a number of times for every pull on the lever.

    The BATF ruled these were legal as they were not part of the gun and the gun’s trigger did not discharge the gun more than one time per activation of the trigger.

    If I were so interested in having a burst-fire handgun I would look into one of these. I would also do the paperwork and pay the $200 tax to convert the handgun into a Short Barrel Rifle. That way you could legally add both a buttstock and forward grip to the handgun and give some measure of controllability to the package in burst fire.

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    openryan wrote:
    I am trying to find a legal loop-hole, does the Government has a definition as to what fully automatic is considered?
    Code:
    " A machine gun is any gun that can fire more than one shot with
    a single pull of the trigger, or a receiver of a machine gun, or a
    combination of parts for assembling a machine gun, or a part or set
    of parts for converting a gun into a machine gun. "
    
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu...st/nfa_faq.txt
    Basic Guy is right....you must have a class 7 FFL ($150 for 3 years) and the manufacturers SOT ($1000 per year)
    "in hand" BEFORE you start your business and must have mil/LE contracts to provide samples for evaluation...at the very least.
    Even if you could find a conversion kit/plans that would make a Sigma FA, you couldn't legally use it since the pistol itself was manufactured after May '86......you would, in fact, be in danger of arrest for even having such parts in your possesion.


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    Don't be too sure about the trigger add-ons that aren't part of the gun being OK. The ATF ruled that an external device attached to the Ruger 10/22 (which allowed the recoil/inertia to trip the trigger when it kicked forward, thus greatly increasing the rate of fire) made it into a destructive device, as I recall. It may not legally constitute a machine gun as such, but then neither was the Street Sweeper, and they banned it.

    -ljp

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    Legba, this is a little off topic of the OP, but reading it reminded me of something I wanted to ask you. A few weeks ago, I was in a local Gander Mountain store looking at a Bushmaster AR15. The man behind the counter asked me if I had my FFL, and I was caught off guard. It is my understanding that you do not have to have an FFL to own a semi auto ar15, but he told me I am wrong. Is he misinformed, or am I? (I am asking you because if I remember correctly, you work at a gun store)

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    True, that I work at a gun shop: false, that you should need an FFL to acquire an AR-15 proper or Bushmaster facsimile (under federal law anyway). One possibility: I think some states only allow possession/ownership of otherwise banned guns (at the state level) if you are a licensed collector or dealer. That may be the case where you are. I think Michigan has some such restriction with regard to machine guns. I do know that there is no federal restriction on the proposed transaction, and the ATF doesn't require anyone to have anFFL to buy them.

    So... I suspect the guy is misinformed, but you may check the fine print of state law there to be sure. That said, he can refuse to sell it to you even if you otherwise prove that you are entitled to buy it. I've run up against that before. A lot of dealers don't know the law about collector's licenses and interstate commerce, so getting one is not a free pass to buy hardware around the country.

    -ljp

    p.s. I just remembered that you're in Ohio, so I can state unequivocally that this guy is full of **** if it happened here. I love this place...


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    Maybe I just need to come see you to get my gun... I don't really care for Gander Mountain. They come across to me as a chain store trying to pretend they area local business, and are just another big corporation that really knows nothing about the community. I've been buying from Slugmaster's up in Warren (near Youngstown) Little far to drive, but they supposedly sell brand new guns for $10 over cost (up to $200) and $20? over cost (over $200) That's what they tell me though, and their prices are good.

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    Well, I don't want to use the forum to further my own commercial interests (I doubt that would be tolerated anyway), but I think I can get away with saying that you're welcome to stop by sometime.I don't own the shop here, and the value is rather variable. The owner is somewhat whimsical about pricing stuff (my charitable way of saying that he can be a greedy bastard at times), but sales have been off for the summer, so I have some latitude with pricing on 2nd-hand goods. The new stuff usually goes for something like 125% of wholesale cost, just FYI. PM me for details if there's something of particular interest I can help with.

    -ljp

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