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Thread: CO Man On Trial In Self-Defense

  1. #1
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Shooting unarmed people is a bad strategy....



    Dotsero murder suspect claims self-defense

    Steve Lynn
    Vail Correspondent
    Glenwood Springs, CO Colorado
    July 31, 2007

    EAGLE - Charles Gross shot his .44 Magnum four times at the driver of a pickup truck in self-defense, the defendant testified during his trial Monday morning.

    Gross, 57, would react the same way if he were put in that situation again, he said.

    "That's how much fear I had. I was afraid for my life," said Gross, who is accused of shooting to death Maria Madrid at a Dotsero campsite in 2005.

    Gross saw Madrid's husband, Eliseo, reach for something between the front seats of a pickup truck as the tinted passengerside window was being rolled up, Gross said.

    Gross walked back toward the campfire and saw the truck moving toward him so he fired at Eliseo Madrid, he said.

    The first shot that Gross fired hit Maria Madrid's head and killed her the evening of Oct. 7, 2005, as she, her husband and then-14-year-old Joel Madrid were leaving a Deep Creek campsite on Coffee Pot Road north of Dotsero, investigators have said.

    Coming back from a hike, Gross approached the Gypsum family's Toyota pickup and asked Eliseo Madrid twice to pick up the family's trash, Gross said.

    Gross called Eliseo Madrid "malicious" and added that Eliseo Madrid showed "hostile intent" during their interactions about the trash, he said.

    During cross examination, Eagle County District Attorney Mark Hurlbert called Gross' decision to fire his gun a "guess."

    Gross acknowledged that he did not see Eliseo Madrid with a gun or a knife and called his reaction an "educated guess." Gross continued to fire the shots as the truck drove in reverse, Gross said.

    But he did not intend to kill Maria Madrid, he said.

    "My intent was the driver because he was the problem," Gross said.

    Hurlbert asked whether Gross could have run away from the truck.

    "I wouldn't have got very far," Gross replied.

    Because he was "upset and confused" after the shooting, Gross ditched his white camper truck and camped in the area until he was arrested Oct. 10, 2005,

    After his arrest, Gross told a sheriff's deputy that "it was rage, pure rage," Hurlbert said.

    Gross said he did not say that.

    "I said that rage was a terrible thing," Gross said.

    Gross is charged with first-degree murder, two counts of first-degree attempted murder and also second-degree assault.


    http://www.postindependent.com/artic...NEWS/107310033



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    Gross ditched his white camper truck and camped in the area until he was arrested Oct. 10, 2005...
    This screams remorse and guilt to me...

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    Gross saw Madrid's husband, Eliseo, reach for something between the front seats of a pickup truck as the tinted passengerside window was being rolled up, Gross said.


    This could have been a glass of water, regulations of trash disposal they wanted to show Gross, a gun, or ANYTHING.

    Certainly if they showed hostility toward Gross previously, these particular actions may have sparked fear that a gun or weapon was going to soon be produced, however acting by firing on these circumstances alone, is probably not justified.

    Pulling out a firearm in most cases is bad policy,unless you intend to use it, however I believe that if Gross had drawn and retreated at the same time, he probably would have produced the same result -- the truck backing away, at this time he could have explained his side of the story and things probably would have gone better for him.

    I seriously doubt this man would actually take the same course of action if put in this same situation again, it is my belief that he is saying this only so that the jury and judge can know how much fear he was put in, and the conviction he had at the time of the shooting.

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    openryan wrote:
    Pulling out a firearm in most cases is bad policy,unless you intend to use it, however I believe that if Gross had drawn and retreated at the same time, he probably would have produced the same result -- the truck backing away, at this time he could have explained his side of the story and things probably would have gone better for him.
    I think he did intend to use the handgun. Hemade a choice to draw. And to shoot. To neutralize the threat, in common parlance. Only thing is, he was neutralizing an unarmed family. He's justa goof with a gun. And a beef.




    openryan wrote:
    I seriously doubt this man would actually take the same course of action if put in this same situation again, it is my belief that he is saying this only so that the jury and judge can know how much fear he was put in, and the conviction he had at the time of the shooting.

    I doubt Gross will everget the chance to do it again. The odds are pretty good he'll die in prison.See the next story.


    It's good to read stories of goofs with guns. Gross' story is quite sobering. I'd hate to see myelf or anyone else here make the kind of mistakes he made.

    I think it is axiomatic: Shooting an unarmed person is a bad strategy.




    Campsite killer guilty
    Charles Gross faces life in prison, but plans appeal


    Charles Gross



    Steve Lynn
    Vail, CO Colorado


    July 31, 2007

    EAGLE — A jury found Charles Gross guilty Tuesday of shooting Maria Madrid to death in front of her husband and son at campsite near Dotsero in 2005.

    Maria Madrid’s family sat stoically during the reading of the verdict, but as they streamed out of the courtroom, they hugged prosecutors and one another and cried.

    “He did a crime and he has to pay for his crime,” said Eliseo Madrid, Maria Madrid’s husband who Gross shot in the shoulder.

    Gross, 57, shot and killed Maria Madrid after an argument over trash as she and her husband, Eliseo Madrid, and their son, then 14-year-old Joel Madrid, were driving away from the campsite, Oct. 7, 2005.

    Gross, who said the shooting was self defense, stood with his hands clasped behind his back, nervously twiddling his fingers as Judge R. Thomas Moorhead read the verdict. Standing between his attorneys, lips pursed and frowning, Gross hung his head and closed his eyes as the word “guilty” was repeated.

    The verdict helped ease the pain for Julia Quezada, Maria Madrid’s younger sister.
    “It does help in a way, but Maria’s never going to come back,” Quezada said through an interpreter.

    Still, Quezada will remember “Mari” as a wonderful mother who put her family first, she said.

    “A person like Mari is never forgotten,” she said.

    Joel Madrid, 16, was working and did not show up for the verdict because he could not stand to see Gross, Eliseo Madrid said.


    Gross testified that Eliseo Madrid drove toward him after Gross asked the family twice to pick up their trash. Madrid denied driving the Toyota pickup truck toward Gross.

    Gross fired four shots at the Gypsum family as they were driving in reverse out of the Deep Creek camp site on Coffee Pot Road.

    “I feel good because justice was served,” Eliseo Madrid said through an interpreter.

    Twelve jurors deliberated for several hours Monday and Tuesday before reaching a verdict.

    “I certainly appreciate that they took their time and I appreciate the verdict,” said Eagle County District Attorney Mark Hurlbert.

    Gross faces life in prison without parole for first-degree murder, up to 48 years for two attempted first-degree murder convictions and up to 16 years in prison for second-degree assault, Hurlbert said.

    Gross is scheduled to be sentenced Oct. 5 at 1 p.m.

    The defense plans to appeal the conviction, Hurlbert said.

    Gross is likely to be in prison during the process, and it’s unlikely a judge would lower his bond, Hurlbert said.

    Hurlbert will ask that Gross pay Eliseo Madrid’s medical bills and funeral for Maria Madrid, but he did not know how much and whether Gross could pay it, he said.

    “I think (inmates) can make three bucks a day working at the laundry but that’s about it,” Hurlbert said.

    Gross’ attorneys, Terry O’Connor and Scott Poland, could not be reached for comment.

    Gross is being held on a $1 million bond in Eagle County jail. After being sentenced, he will be sent to prison, where he is likely to spend the rest of his life if his appeal fails.





    Eliseo Madrid calls his son Joel, 16, about the guilty verdict read in court Tuesday afternoon at the Eagle County Justice Center. Charles Gross, 57, murdered Maria Madrid less than two years ago at a camp site north of Dotsero.



    http://www.vaildaily.com/article/200...24/0/FRONTPAGE




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    He probably would have been aquitted if he was a LEO... at least in CA.

    Hostile verbal interaction, tinted windows, reaching for an unseen object between/under the seats, vehicle (a deadly weapon) driving toward him...
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    Ca. Libertarian is right,of course, but that doesn't excuse murder. Gross got what he earned. He had no justification if the facts reported are correct to shoot.

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    In what way is being behind the wheel of a motor vehicle unarmed? If I was armed and somebody who displayed hostility was driving a motor vehicle towards me, I'd be very inclined to draw and if that wasn't enough, shoot. A little lead doesn't compete with a two ton vehicle, especially one with a dead operator whose foot is now permanently on the gas. But it's likely to make them rethink their own aggression. Hopefully.

    We don't know. We weren't there.

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    "Gross fired four shots at the Gypsum family as they were driving in reverse out of the Deep Creek camp site on Coffee Pot Road. "



    I'm still stuck on that.



    shoot at someone you got in an arguement with, as they back out of a camp site?

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    Wynder wrote:
    Gross ditched his white camper truck and camped in the area until he was arrested Oct. 10, 2005...
    This screams remorse and guilt to me...
    ....or, possibly, fear. He definitely sounds guilty of negligent homicide, at the very least, but we aren't getting all the evidence, either. Who among us, who study these forums, would honestly believe we're going to get a fair shake?

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    So what did the sentence end up being?

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    Gross was simply punishing people who littered. They were criminals. Virtually all litterers escalate their crimes form littering to speeding to looking scary and eventually murder. Gross was putting his foot down and being a good neighbor by shooting at these people. I'll bet all those litterers will think twice before littering near Mr. Gross again. :X

    But yes, I wonder what the sentence ended up being.

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    Just look it up, boys. Google is your fren..


    Oct 7, 2007
    Man Sentenced For Slaying At Campground

    (AP) EAGLE, Colo. A man convicted of killing a woman over a dispute over trash at a campsite has been sentenced to life in prison plus 100 years.

    Charles Anthony Gross, 57, received the sentence Friday, which was the term requested by prosecutor Mark Hurlbert.

    Gross was convicted in July of first-degree murder with extreme indiference, two counts of attempted first-degree murder and second-degree assault in the shooting death of Maria Madrid, 35. Authorities said he fired a shot into a truck as Madrid, her husband, Eliseo Madrid, and their son Joel, then 14, left a campsite north of Dotsero in October 2005.

    "Even though he had no (criminal) record, just the heinousness of the crime warranted that long a sentence," Hurlbert said.

    Eliseo Madrid said Gross had accused them of not cleaning up their campsite after a picnic.

    A defense attorney said Gross feared for his life.


    http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_280171720.html




    Yet another confirmation ofHankT's much-heralded Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense:

    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.©




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    HankT wrote:
    Just look it up, boys. Google is your fren..
    Cite?



    Well, glad to hear that he got what he deserved. Though I'm sure a few people will think that what Mr. Gross did was correct.

    Although I hate to do it... does anyone else see the potential of a race/ethnicity issue here?

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Just look it up, boys. Google is your fren..
    Cite?



    Well, glad to hear that he got what he deserved.


    Correction to the sentence Gross received. He got life plus 15,625 years.1



    1. BasePrometheus/Huffman

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    Sounds like an irresponsible over reaction from the info available. Argument over garbage, truck backing up, guy pulls gun and starts firing at retreating family. Sad, sad, sad.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  16. #16
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    deepdiver wrote:
    Sounds like an irresponsible over reaction from the info available. Argument over garbage, truck backing up, guy pulls gun and starts firing at retreating family. Sad, sad, sad.
    I think his use of the protector84-style 5th amendment protection tactic (5APT) in leaving the shootee at the camp and ditching his truck to avoid detection was not a good move for Gross....





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    HankT wrote:
    Correction to the sentence Gross received. He got life plus 15,625 years.1



    1. BasePrometheus/Huffman
    HankT, Member Moderator Longwatch,

    I have made no such comment as apparently attributed to me. Please do not attempt to advance your credibility at my expense.

  18. #18
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    You have to HAVE credibility to advance it.
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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